Well, to be fair, it's not just Christians who don't support gay marriage. Plenty of people are against it regardless of any religious affliction, or lack thereof.
Yep. Plenty of people are against women's rights for the same reason also.
Being religious doesn't automatically make you against gay marriage; there are plenty of Christians who DO support it, or at the very least are not against marriage equality.
I am aware of this, and never stated or even implied that religion in general is the cause of such, and made sure to specify that I was speaking only about anti-gay Christians.
The tough thing about religion in general is that it deals with a lot of morals that are agreed upon by society and the law. While I agree that religious thought should be separate from what goes on in a court room, its rather impossible to remove it completely.
While true, we can make sure that laws concerning morality are based on rational positions that have nothing to do with religious bias. For example, I'm fine with people opposing abortion under the rationale that we can't say for certain when human life begins, therefore they consider it immoral. I'm not so keen on (legislating, anyway) "God said so!"
Interestingly, where I live it's technically illegal to have oral sex or to have sex in any position other than missionary. The thing is, cops aren't watching through windows to make sure you or I aren't participating in "illegal" sexual activity between consenting adults. In both situations, the laws are dumb and are left over from conservative times, and if they're still on the books, they're not being enforced.
They're not supposed to be enforced, but they still are in some areas. In Baton Rouge, for example, police have been going undercover and seducing and then arresting gay men. They haven't been able to press charges due to the Supreme Court ruling, but they have been wasting time and resources on unjust arrests and harassment.
Just think for a moment, about the fact that A) you don't know me, and B) everyone is affected by an unjust law in one way or the other, so let's not trivialize people - homosexuals are hardly the only victims of unjust laws here.
I never stated or implied such. And as MLK put it, injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. It's unacceptable in any circumstance.
Certainly homosexuals have bared the overwhelming majority of discrimination in the military, but I think you'd actually be surprised at the amount of religious discrimination growing in the military over the last few years. It's rare, but it does happen. For example, Chaplain Gordon Klingenschmitt was court martialed for ending a prayer with "in Jesus' name". There's also a Senior Master Sergeant Phillip Monk who is looking at a court martial borne out of a situation where he wouldn't agree with his (gay) CO's stance on gay marriage. That's just two examples.
I'm aware of Klingenschmitt and I'm also aware that was he was court martialed over willfully disobeying orders. When you're in the military, you agree to follow their code of conduct, no matter what. He agreed to that and then reneged on his part of the agreement, then feigned persecution after the fact. And the order that he disobeyed was that he wore his uniform to a political protest. As for Monk, it's a classic case of "He said, she said," and if he's telling the truth, then he was treated unfairly, but if the Air Force's side of the story is true, he's being dishonest in order to portray himself as a victim. Time will tell.
Really? Not once did I cry "woe is me" or even mention my OWN beliefs. How can stating the flip side of an issue be seen as entitled or bizarre? I guess it's just easier and more comfortable to clasp hands over ears and say "I'm not listening."
Let me quote you to give you an example: "In the US, it has become politically correct by the majority to try and silence christian thought and expression while mostly leaving other religions to go about their ways, under the guise of defending the (criminally misunderstood) separation of church and state, when in reality it is nothing more than attacking one group's freedom of expression - everything from fining people holding bible studies in their homes..." Really? I mean
really? Basically, if Christianity's status as a privileged group is challenged in any way, we hear outlandish statements like this, and the PC card is tossed out. Nobody is trying to silence Christians, what they're trying to do is make sure that the Constitution is applied equally to everyone.
Unfortunately, some (usually extremely conservative) Christians don't like that and think that they should be the exception to the rule, so they claim persecution when a banner endorsing Christian prayer is removed from a public school, though I doubt these same people would ever approve of a Muslim banner like that being displayed in such a way. Who in America has been fined for having a Bible study in their house? What was the justification? Is this going to be another Klingenschmitt type story where the reality has nothing to do with the claim?
If you had bothered to actually research any of these examples, you'd see the articles discussing these events. Here's a couple to get you started:
"Christians are targeted more than any other body of believers."
Arrested after handing out pamphlets.
Student suspended for bible and religious talk.
Let me put it this way, I am used to fundamentalist Christians making extravagant claims about the persecution against them going on in America, and they're usually false (like Klingenschmitt's) to the point where it's become like the Boy Who Cried Wolf. Having said that, it was unfair for me to dismiss the claim out of hand, and I do apologize for calling those things lies, because the Dearborn story does check out. The claim about the Bible suspension, not so much. The school's claim is that it occurred because he was being disruptive and preaching in class, which would warrant taking disciplinary action. I can't find any article about how the court ultimately ruled in the case.
Unnecessary insults aside, I'm actually a kind, very well-adjusted individual, thank you very much. I believe in fairness and equal rights for all - regardless of your religion/lack there of, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc - you might be surprised that I'm actually 100% for marriage equality. I find it amusing that you are saying I am out of touch with reality when simply opening your eyes and ears to the world around you free of your own prejudices for a few moments would show that the world is not so black and white as you want to believe it to be.
I also believe in fairness and equal rights for all, which is why I want to put an end to one religion getting special treatment in America. Giving Christianity preferential treatment endangers everyone because of the dangerous precedent it sets. It's "might makes right," and if we allow that to become the law of the land, then that religious majority could very easily change via immigration, and this could become a much more frightening country than it is today. We need to stick to the Constitution 100%, not allowing any special exceptions.
Where did I claim I wanted to force anything on anyone? The point of my post was nothing more than to illustrate that Christians DO feel like they are being attacked, and why. Discrimination is a fickle thing - it's easy to deny its existence if you disagree with those experiencing it.
Yes, and in all of your examples, you have only been able to provide one taking place in America that shows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christians were persecuted. Yes, even one such instance is way too much. But there's a big problem with credibility when you present the situation as being that this is commonplace, hence my Boy Who Cried Wolf example from earlier.
Of course Christians are going to feel persecuted, whether they have justification to or not. I was a Christian. I was raised being told that I was going to be persecuted and that all Christians will be, etc. to the point that I thought persecution was happening any time something unfair happened to me. Just because a person feels that way doesn't mean that their feelings are based in reality.
I was in no way attempting to discredit other groups' plights, nor was I attempting to say that Christians IN THE USA have it worse than others within this country. Yes, it's definitely safe to say that in the USA, Christians are the least discriminated against, but to say that there is NO discrimination geared towards Christians in this country and especially in others, is patently false. The sad truth is, ALL groups, ALL people, ALL religions, ALL ideologies, etc feel the pain of discrimination at one point or another. Your hate and unwillingness to acknowledge that Christians are no different in that regard is disheartening...not because of any religious leanings, but because the fewer people who understand that discrimination and persecution come in more forms than what you yourself identify with makes the likelihood of humanity seeing an end to all forms of discrimination impossible.
You really lost what ground you'd gained here with this comment. Yes, I did make an inappropriate prejudgment based on past experience, and said some things that I shouldn't have, and I apologize for that again, but I don't hate Christians. My whole family is Christian, as are some very dear friends of mine. Tom Hanks is a Christian and I suspect that it was his Christianity that led him to take (at the time) the very controversial role of an HIV+ gay man in
Philadelphia. That was at a time when people didn't want to talk about AIDS and when gay people were much more publicly despised than they are now. Not to mention that he actually befriended many gay men who were on the set and dying of AIDS. I also remember and look up to pro-gay Christian role models like Coretta Scott King, Tammy Faye Messner, Bayard Rustin, and Mildred Loving.
So no, I don't hate Christians and never have. I just tire of what is often unjustified persecution rhetoric from some of the more vocal Christians, especially when I look back on what the Christians of Rome suffered and hear modern, spoiled Christians call it persecution if someone criticizes their beliefs.
You know, I was going to leave this well enough alone, but your vitriol and the attacks on my character are totally uncalled for. This was the nail on the head, so just a heads up, this post is being reported. It's one thing to disagree with someone. It's another to voice that disagreement not with discussion, but with grossly inaccurate and unwarranted attacks on a person's character. Thanks for illustrating my point.
And this perfectly illustrates mine, so report away. You aren't being persecuted, you got into a message board argument. I have apologized for my previous statements that were inappropriate or in error, but the statement about your
attitude (not your character) doesn't seem to have been far off the mark.
