Gender Roles & Identity in contemporary society

[Donner]

These are all elements of manhood. You are free to disagree of course.

To you. You have no background to justify making these claims.

 

[writer0327]

You believe...

The suicide gap: Why men are more likely to kill themselves

This just says men are depressed without saying what makes them depressed. Are you saying suicidal men are depressed merely by being men?

 

[writer0327]

To you. You have no background to justify making these claims.

Well I was asked.

And what background do I need to say what manhood is? Are you saying these are not elements of manhood?

 

[writer0327]

Because you say so?

I was asked what manhood is. I never said this was an exhaustive list

 

[Donner]

This just says men are depressed without saying what makes them depressed. Are you saying suicidal men are depressed merely by being men?

Mental illness is behind 90% of the suicides. It's the second line of the paragraph under "Is masculinity getting in the way of getting help?"

To which the answer is yes, yes it is.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I was asked what manhood is. I never said this was an exhaustive list

I am asking what you base what manhood is on. We will then get into how masculinity is a social construct, often used to bully men who do not conform to these "ideals". But first, I want to know where you got your list from.

 

[Donner]

Well I was asked.

And what background do I need to say what manhood is? Are you saying these are not elements of manhood?

A background in social anthropology would be nice for one so you could say what the elements of manhood are according to society.

You basically just picked words that sounded good to you, attributed them to manhood and are now challenging anyone to say otherwise.

 

[writer0327]

That’s mainly due to two things: “One is that men use more lethal means [to attempt suicide], and the second is that they don’t seek care as much

Regarding suicide, this is an interesting statement, it says men use more lethal means. It makes it sound as if women do not use the same lethal means. So does this mean men are really just more successful? Maybe the stats on suicide attempts are more valuable?

 

[writer0327]

A background in anthropology would be nice for one and perhaps sociology so you could say what the elements of manhood are according to society.

You basically just picked words that sounded good to you, attributed them to manhood and are now challenging anyone to say otherwise.

So the only people worth having a discussion with on these matters are degreed experts in the field of study? I'll keep that in mind.

I guess I could hop through a bunch of anthropological studies and cut and paste what others have said, but I thought you were trying to discuss this with me.

 

[Donner]

That’s mainly due to two things: “One is that men use more lethal means [to attempt suicide], and the second is that they don’t seek care as much

Regarding suicide, this is an interesting statement, it says men use more lethal means. It makes it sound as if women do not use the same lethal means. So does this mean men are really just more successful? Maybe the stats on suicide attempts are more valuable?

Women attempt suicide more than men. But men are more successful. Usually because they use more lethal means (guns, poison, hanging, etc). They're more committed to killing themselves.

But don't try and deflect away from this. The issues surrounding masculinity is why this is happening. Women have more support networks than men because men aren't supposed to seek outside help, lest they be viewed as weak.

 

[Donner]

So the only people worth having a discussion with on these matters are degreed experts in the field of study? I'll keep that in mind.

I guess I could hop through a bunch of anthropological studies and cut and paste what others have said, but I thought you were trying to discuss this with me.

As I said before, you don't need a degree to debate, but you do need some sort of educational background to make the claims that you do. You cherry picked specific characteristics to attribute to manhood but you have no basis for that claim. It's just what you think is right. That's not how this works.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That’s mainly due to two things: “One is that men use more lethal means [to attempt suicide], and the second is that they don’t seek care as much

Regarding suicide, this is an interesting statement, it says men use more lethal means. It makes it sound as if women do not use the same lethal means. So does this mean men are really just more successful? Maybe the stats on suicide attempts are more valuable?

Actually, it may tie back to the concept of masculinity and it's association with violence.

Gender differentiation in methods of suicide attempts

 

[writer0327]

I am asking what you base what manhood is on. We will then get into how masculinity is a social construct, often used to bully men who do not conform to these "ideals". But first, I want to know where you got your list from.

I guess its life experience, my upbringing, my personal struggles, watching other men struggle and succeed, learning from them, and living life. Seeing the good and bad that men can do.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I guess its life experience, my upbringing, my personal struggles, watching other men struggle and succeed, learning from them, and living life. Seeing the good and bad that men can do.

So what you are saying is, you are just making up the definition.

 

[Donner]

I guess its life experience, my upbringing, my personal struggles, watching other men struggle and succeed, learning from them, and living life. Seeing the good and bad that men can do.

That's not how this works. That's just what you think manhood means. If you frame it that way, there can be a discussion. But you basically said this is what manhood is and that's final. You can't do that.

 

[writer0327]

Actually, it may tie back to the concept of masculinity and it's association with violence.

Gender differentiation in methods of suicide attempts

Yes, thank you for providing this, it highlights the point I read making.

The study results indicate that women as a group more frequently attempted suicide rather than actually committing it, whereas men were more likely to complete suicides and choose more violent suicide methods; thus, women are the “attempters” and “survivors” of suicide attempts.

It seems that men aren't attempting more suicides as much as they are more successful. The study showed women are far more likely to try and kill themselves. So the fact that men commit more suicide than women feels misused here because its posited as a mental issue when in reality men are least likely to attempt it in the first place, but much more likely to complete it correctly.

 

[writer0327]

As I said before, you don't need a degree to debate, but you do need some sort of educational background to make the claims that you do. You cherry picked specific characteristics to attribute to manhood but you have no basis for that claim. It's just what you think is right. That's not how this works.

I have a degree in journalism. Is that sufficient? Do we only learn from schools and books? Isn't life experience part of our collective knowledge as human beings?

 

[Donner]

Yes, thank you for providing this, it highlights the point I read making.

The study results indicate that women as a group more frequently attempted suicide rather than actually committing it, whereas men were more likely to complete suicides and choose more violent suicide methods; thus, women are the “attempters” and “survivors” of suicide attempts.

It seems that men aren't attempting more suicides as much as they are more successful. The study showed women are far more likely to try and kill themselves. So the fact that men commit more suicide than women feels misused here because its posited as a mental issue when in reality men are least likely to attempt it in the first place, but much more likely to complete it correctly.

Men are so committed to killing themselves that they'll use a gun instead of pills. That's a mental issue. They don't seek help because "men" don't ask for help, it's weak. They suffer in silence and when it becomes too much, they end it in frighteningly good fashion.

 

[Donner]

I have a degree in journalism. Is that sufficient? Do we only learn from schools and books? Isn't life experience part of our collective knowledge as human beings?

Sort of, but not in the way you're using it. People use their life experiences to make generalizations not just about their immediate world, but the society at large. Getting mugged in an alley doesn't mean that muggings are a frequent occurrence, but people who get mugged will report thinking that the issue is worse than it is.

You're using your life experiences to make a generalized, emotional statement about what manhood is. It's not representative of the society as a whole. It's a common mistake. University attempts to correct those mistakes by offering critical thinking skills and the ability to look at the larger picture.

I'm not saying that people who haven't gone to post secondary can't have thoughtful opinions. They most certainly can and they most certainly do. You don't. You make claims based on your personal experience, apply it to the whole, and don't offer any evidence to back it up.

 

[writer0327]

So what you are saying is, you are just making up the definition.

What I am saying is life experience shape our definitions for almost everything. You don't live life out of a manual, so your own experiences are valid in a forum such as this.

My original point today was that greater violence or the threat of violence is required to put down violent men. This isn't something I read but my own summation based on seeing the world and how violent men have been dealt with. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yes, thank you for providing this, it highlights the point I read making.

The study results indicate that women as a group more frequently attempted suicide rather than actually committing it, whereas men were more likely to complete suicides and choose more violent suicide methods; thus, women are the “attempters” and “survivors” of suicide attempts.

It seems that men aren't attempting more suicides as much as they are more successful. The study showed women are far more likely to try and kill themselves. So the fact that men commit more suicide than women feels misused here because its posited as a mental issue when in reality men are least likely to attempt it in the first place, but much more likely to complete it correctly.

Attempting suicide is a cry for help. That more men are successful while attempting it less shows the stigma that comes with men asking for help.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What I am saying is life experience shape our definitions for almost everything. You don't live life out of a manual, so your own experiences are valid in a forum such as this.

My original point today was that greater violence or the threat of violence is required to put down violent men. This isn't something I read but my own summation based on seeing the world and how violent men have been dealt with. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

So what you are saying is, you have no basis to say any of this other then personal experience, which explains a lot.

 

[writer0327]

Sort of, but not in the way you're using it. People use their life experiences to make generalizations not just about their immediate world, but the society at large. Getting mugged in an alley doesn't mean that muggings are a frequent occurrence, but people who get mugged will report thinking that the issue is worse than it is.

You're using your life experiences to make a generalized, emotional statement about what manhood is. It's not representative of the society as a whole. It's a common mistake. University attempts to correct those mistakes by offering critical thinking skills and the ability to look at the larger picture.

I'm not saying that people who haven't gone to post secondary can't have thoughtful opinions. They most certainly can and they most certainly do. You don't. You make claims based on your personal experience, apply it to the whole, and don't offer any evidence to back it up.

I understand a mugging in an alley doesn't apply to all of society. But I was asked to give a general definition of manhood, which can be as variable as anything depending on who you ask. I gave as general of a description as I could taking into account my personal experiences. No emotion in that however.

 

[writer0327]

So what you are saying is, you have no basis to say any of this other then personal experience, which explains a lot.

I'm saying both subjective and objective viewpoints are drawn from experience of one sort or another, therefore all experiences, including personal ones, influences everyone's outlook on the world. Besides that, every experience is personal to someone, so that's basis enough.

 

[writer0327]

Attempting suicide is a cry for help. That more men are successful while attempting it less shows the stigma that comes with men asking for help.

I see it as when men attempt suicide, they aren't crying for help. They are trying to end the pain.