The Dark Knight Rises Gordon's Conscience & Other Things...

[calibud]

I'm aware that things change. At this point, however, it's safe to assume that Dent is dead. This thread is not intended to debate this.
All speculation and hearsay aside, let's assume Dent is really, really dead.

That's one hell of a cover-up. What does Gordon do? Batman is the scapegoat. The Joker would be easier to pin it on, right? The five people Gordon confirmed as being killed by Harvey maybe. As for why Gordon, his family, Dent, and Bats were all in the same place...he really has no choice.

"The Joker must not win."

Yes, Batman killed Harvey. He pushed him over the ledge. Would anyone else have let Harvey murder a boy just to protect their reputation?

I think Gordon reported Batman threatening his family at gunpoint and Dent heroic attempted to save them, only to be murdered. Everyone's happy with that. Gotham has been waiting for Batman to do something like this and Dent is preserved as a hero who not only cleaned up crime in the city, but died protecting the Commissioner's 9 year-old son. Hence, the Joker has lost.

This might be covered in #3, but what would everyone else assume the police report about that night to read?

Gordon's conscience must be a mess. He's had to betray the only truly honest and trustworthy person in the city to keep things moving. What sort of role do you think this would play in #3?

The Joker lost. His "ace in the hole" failed. If he's included in the next story, do you think he'll go to any lengths to prove everyone wrong and push the truth into the public eye? He was about to blow up both ferries because the passengers' actions contradicted his "social experiment." Or would he embrace the fact that Batman and Gordon have lied and deceived (and therefore contradicted their own philosophies in a way) in order to keep the peace?

 

[GregComicFan]

Well, I seriously doubt the Joker will be in Batman 3. They wont recast him. The director wont want to feel he's replacing Heath Ledger. Second, I think the Joker's presence will be felt, but he won't be seen in the movie.....

 

[ND Irish]

yea i agree with the joker being an influence on future criminals / freaks. but i doubt he'll be seen; maybe referenced, that would be cool. interesting theory though

 

[bonesawmcgraw]

A better question is: How is Gordan's family supposed to keep it a secret?

 

[Adam West]

The Joker lost. His "ace in the hole" failed. If he's included in the next story, do you think he'll go to any lengths to prove everyone wrong and push the truth into the public eye? He was about to blow up both ferries because the passengers' actions contradicted his "social experiment." Or would he embrace the fact that Batman and Gordon have lied and deceived (and therefore contradicted their own philosophies in a way) in order to keep the peace?

I believe Nolan and Goyer originally intended this to be the focus of the next film. Joker is not happy about Batman getting the last laugh and wants to blow the lid off the cover-up.

I'm still on the fence about Nolan re-casting Joker, but I could see them bringing in Harley Quinn to stand in for Joker in part 3. I also see Joker using Riddler as a way to expose the truth about Dent.

 

[Copyright 2008]

I'm aware that things change. At this point, however, it's safe to assume that Dent is dead. This thread is not intended to debate this.
All speculation and hearsay aside, let's assume Dent is really, really dead.

That's one hell of a cover-up. What does Gordon do? Batman is the scapegoat. The Joker would be easier to pin it on, right? The five people Gordon confirmed as being killed by Harvey maybe. As for why Gordon, his family, Dent, and Bats were all in the same place...he really has no choice.

"The Joker must not win."

Gordon's conscience must be a mess. He's had to betray the only truly honest and trustworthy person in the city to keep things moving. What sort of role do you think this would play in #3?

First of all, it's not only safe to assume, it's a fact, Dent/Two-Face is dead, he's done. Now, to the question of pinning the blame on the Joker or rather why exactly did Batman take the blame?

Personally I don't think that the ending was just about making Dent out to be a hero or making him be a martyr, it was about Bruce Wayne totally committing himself to being Batman. It was something he was struggling with the entire movie, hoping to leave it behind, leave it to someone who the citizens looked up to as their real hero (Dent). Once that didn't happen, once Rachel was killed and Dent lost his faith in people (he isn't really the schizo type killer that he is in the comics, there's a big difference), Bruce realized that future wasn't possible for him anymore, that now more than any other time he was needed as Batman.

But Gotham already was looking at Batman as more of a menace much less a hero. He isn't going to be presented the key to the city anytime soon and be getting parades celebrating him. He will never be looked up to as hero by the whole city, he won't be embraced that way. He can't be the hero Dent could have been. So he had to become something else, he chose to become fear. Taking the blame for the murders totally changes how people and criminals think of him, criminals thought that he had rules, boundaries, of which Maroni told Batman himself. He now becomes a true unknown to everyone, no more respect for the law or moral codes seemingly. It's something that Gordon accepts and knows has to be done in order to keep some sort of grasp on the city. Gordon doesn't betray Batman, he understands at the end why it needs to be done and goes along with it. In order to keep society from tearing itself to pieces the people need to be able to push their fears on something (Batman), believe that true good is incorruptible (Dent) and that true evil (Joker) is relatively remote.

By taking the blame Bruce Wayne does far more than allow Harvey Dent to die a hero, he allows himself to become that much more of a myth among the people and the scum of Gotham. It's the point where Bruce Wayne really becomes the mask and Batman becomes his identity. It's both a noble and tragic decision. There is no going back after he makes this decision.

And it was foreshadowed pretty much the entire movie by Alfred:

"What's going to happen on the day you find out (what your limits are)?"

"Endure, take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman. He can be the outcast, he can make the choice no one else can make."

"Even if everyone hates him for it, that's the sacrifice he's making, he's not being a hero, he's being something more."

The symbol of fear. A dark knight.

 

[November Rain]

I don't necessarily see why Dent had to be covered. Dent exploded in a fire.

Considering all the people he killed were corrupt Cops or Thugs and based on his potential predicament, I don't see why gotham would see his actions as bad. He would simply go from being in shining knight to dark batman territory. If he killed any innocents, that would be a different story entirely.

he would be the dude who flushed out corruption within the police department and still a hero (in some respects).

 

[Copyright 2008]

"They're all going to come after you now...If they get ANYTHING on you, those criminals are back on the streets along with you and me."

"You're the symbol of hope I could never be...if anyone saw this, everything would be undone. All the criminals you pulled off the streets would be released and Jim Gordon would have died for nothing. Gotham's in your hands now"

Plus everyone knew Dent wasn't killed in that explosion.

 

[Abadleon]

I think the end was stupid and made no sense at all tbh. I liked a lot things in the movie, but the screenplay had a lot of things that were ridiculous and made no sense, one of them being the end.

 

[Copyright 2008]

Did you read my first post? What didn't make sense to you?

 

[rashad]

The ending made perfect sense.

 

[November Rain]

didn't the joker win anyway by getting batman to murder?

 

[Anita18]

I think Gordon reported Batman threatening his family at gunpoint and Dent heroic attempted to save them, only to be murdered.

The SWAT knows that Batman was at the Pruitt building, rescuing hostages. One of the SWAT guys overheard Gordon say over the phone, "Barbara, calm down...H-Harvey? Where's my family?" They KNOW that Harvey is with Gordon's family before Batman was. They don't necessarily know that Dent has them hostage, so that part Gordon could get away with.

The Joker lost. His "ace in the hole" failed. If he's included in the next story, do you think he'll go to any lengths to prove everyone wrong and push the truth into the public eye? He was about to blow up both ferries because the passengers' actions contradicted his "social experiment." Or would he embrace the fact that Batman and Gordon have lied and deceived (and therefore contradicted their own philosophies in a way) in order to keep the peace?

I personally think he would just be tickled pink by the fact that Batman and Gordon had to sacrifice so much to overcome him. I don't think he would necessarily pull a tantrum and push the truth to the public eye. He would probably rather sit and giggle while watching the truth eat away at Gordon and Batman.

Plus everyone knew Dent wasn't killed in that explosion.

Yup. That's why Gordon was so adamant about keeping Dent's whereabouts a secret, especially after he turned up missing after the hospital explosion and the bus was presumed to be taken hostage. "Where do you think Dent is? Keep looking, and keep it to yourself. If anyone asks, we got him out."

 

[christpunchers]

People would have traced back all of Two-Face's murders back to Dent. It would have been seen as an act of revenge for a hero turned madman. That's what the Joker wanted, to corrupt even the most "incorruptible"s of Gotham.

This is why Batman took the fall, he wants everyone to think he killed those people, to avenge Dent. He wants to protect Harvey's status as the White Knight. He wants everyone to think that Dent came to protect Gordon's family from Batman, because it was Gordon who let the crooked cops tie up Harvey by staying in the force.

 

[Ronny Shade]

I think the Joker should win.

 

[Copyright 2008]

didn't the joker win anyway by getting batman to murder?

I guess it's debatable. In some ways, yes, somewhat in Batman's case. He successfully motivated enough citizens, including cops, to try and murder a more or less innocent person. He exploited Dent's fatal flaw and essentially broke him. Batman didn't go in with intent to kill Dent in that stand off but that's what happened and him and Gordon had to come up with a "pathetic attempt to control things in their little world" in covering it up. Like Anita said, he would probably find that funny, it just proves him right.

But he failed at the end with the boats, so in a way it's saying that individually we all can be tempted by the "dark side" of ourselves but that maybe together, in our shared humanity, there is still hope for compassion.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

I think the end was stupid and made no sense at all tbh. I liked a lot things in the movie, but the screenplay had a lot of things that were ridiculous and made no sense, one of them being the end.

Hey Robert, how are things coming along on IM2? t:

 

[Anita18]

Hey Robert, how are things coming along on IM2? t:

Ouch!

 

[November Rain]

I guess it's debatable. In some ways, yes, somewhat in Batman's case. He successfully motivated enough citizens, including cops, to try and murder a more or less innocent person. He exploited Dent's fatal flaw and essentially broke him. Batman didn't go in with intent to kill Dent in that stand off but that's what happened and him and Gordon had to come up with a "pathetic attempt to control things in their little world" in covering it up. Like Anita said, he would probably find that funny, it just proves him right.

But he failed at the end with the boats, so in a way it's saying that individually we all can be tempted by the "dark side" of ourselves but that maybe together, in our shared humanity, there is still hope for compassion.

His boat thing was one of many ideas...

it shows actually that the people of gotham are more resilient than the joker or batman realise.

which is perfect logic for why they wouldn't accept dent's death as a means to return chaos to the status quo. Which makes the entire cover up of dent's death POINTLESS.

The joker beat batman, beat dent, beat the mob but didn't beat the people of gotham (completely). HOw come the most reselient force to him is the one that is treated as the easiest to corrupt.

Now if both sides of the boat were chanting 'I believe in Harvey Dent' or were going on about Harvey, then I could see how powerful an influence he was on them but they weren't. I don't think harvey is that important to them.

 

[Copyright 2008]

I'm just going to condense it down to 2 basic reasons why they needed to cover up Dent's crime. And by the way, Batman never stopped believing in the people, several times at the end when Gordon says the people will blow the other boat up, Batman says they won't. Same with Joker at the very end, "There won't be any fireworks." He had nothing to back that up other than his total belief in the good of Gotham City. He didn't underestimate the citizens at all. It was the Joker who was surprised.

Now for why they needed the cover up:
1. Every criminal he put in prison would have been released. This is discussed at least twice in the movie that if anyone got any dirt on Dent, it was all over, all his work for naught, and Gotham goes back into the hands of the mob, but this time without a "white knight".

2. It fully realizes the idea of what Batman needs to be, he becomes that much more of a myth and something to be feared in Gotham by everyone. He seemingly has become uncontrollable, no more rules or laws or boundaries for him. He becomes fear, he can't be the hero for people to embrace and look up to. So he takes the blame, he becomes Batman forever. No more hope for a life without it. It was a decision foreshadowed near the start of the film.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

I'm just going to condense it down to 2 basic reasons why they needed to cover up Dent's crime. And by the way, Batman never stopped believing in the people, several times at the end when Gordon says the people will blow the other boat up, Batman says they won't. Same with Joker at the very end, "There won't be any fireworks." He had nothing to back that up other than his total belief in the good of Gotham City. He didn't underestimate the citizens.

Exactly. He says this to Ra's in BB as well when he finds out Ra's plan, "There are good people here..."

Now for why they needed the cover up:
1. Every criminal he put in prison would have been released. This is discussed at least twice in the movie that if anyone got any dirt on Dent, it was all over, all his work for naught, and Gotham goes back into the hands of the mob, but this time without a "white knight".

Right.

2. It fully realizes the idea of what Batman needs to be, he becomes that much more of a myth and something to be feared in Gotham by everyone. He seemingly has become uncontrollable, no more rules or laws or boundaries for him. He becomes fear, he can't be the hero for people to embrace and look up to. So he takes the blame, he becomes Batman forever. No more hope for a life without it. It was a decision foreshadowed near the start of the film.

Interesting, never thought of this. Not sure Batman really had this in mind(becoming more of a myth, someone really without rules to be feared) but it can certainly play out that way.

 

[Copyright 2008]

The thing is, he didn't have that in mind during almost the entire film. It was the exact opposite. He wanted Dent to take Gotham into his own hands, because he knew that the people embraced him, not Batman.

"You know that day you once told me about when Gotham would no longer need Batman...Its happening now. Harvey is that hero. He locked up half of the city's criminals and did it without wearing a mask. Gotham needs a hero with a face."

It was only after Rachael was killed and Dent lost his faith in people and went on his killing spree did Bruce realize that a future without Batman was not going to be possible anymore for him if he wanted to save Gotham from going into a downward spiral of chaos, just like the Joker wanted. So he had to make a choice.

"Even if everyone hates him for it, that's the sacrifice he's making, he's not being a hero, he's being something more....That's the point of Batman. He can be the outcast. He can make the choice nobody else can make..the right choice.

Alfred has some of the most important lines in the entire movie. He guides Bruce in making this decision.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

I'm still not convinced or sold on the idea that Batman will be this perennial pariah who'll never be embraced by the public or indeed the authorities. He'll always be needed in some capacity or another, that's why he can't escape being Batman. Because some day, they'll be calling for him. What if Batman undertakes a 'broken window' policy, taking on a lot of small crime and hoping this scares off the bigger criminals.

 

[Copyright 2008]

He won't be embraced by the entire public, no. But what the city needs is someone with the ideals of Batman but without having to take the sort of action he does in order to make an impact, which was what Dent was doing. And Dent would lead Gotham out of corruptness in police and government. Batman could only do so much on that front.

And at the point he's at now at the end of TDK, he knows he is really the only barrier now, Dent is gone, Rachael is gone, he truly has to completely give himself up for the good of the city and if that means sacrificing any hope for a "normal" life,then he will. That was the choice he made at the end of TDK.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

Perhaps the people of Gotham don't know what they need and in that regards, neither do Gordon, Batman etc? I feel that Dent's fate ties in loosely with what Bruce says to Alfred in the first film.

"As Bruce Wayne, I'm flesh and blood, I can be ignored or destroyed. As a symbol..I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting...." (not verbatim)

Whilst Dent stood for a strong ideal, he was doing so only as an ordinary man. He had a face that was widely recognisable. However Batman transcends the notion of an ordinary man taking on crime and has become a symbol. It seems baffling to me that in the first film the idea is that if one can devote their entire life to an ideal, if they can change and commit themselves so strongly to an idea - where they transcend what would overwhelm ordinary men. Then this fails in the end. He has sacrificed himself for the greater good, he's committed the most virtuous act one can make. Yet I feel he'll be reborn in a metaphorical sense. Much like Lazarus heh. Although I'm not going to make further biblical references!