The Dark Knight Rises Gordon's Conscience & Other Things...

[Copyright 2008]

I don't think at first Bruce was convinced of Dent's commitment. But once he got to know him he thought he could be the one who could truly lead Gotham out of corruptness, and he was doing so throughout most of TDK. But his fatal flaw was that he was so sure of himself, so cocky, he never thought he could fail or lose anything in the process that when he did, he lost all faith in people.

 

[p4poetic]

I believe Nolan and Goyer originally intended this to be the focus of the next film. Joker is not happy about Batman getting the last laugh and wants to blow the lid off the cover-up.

I'm still on the fence about Nolan re-casting Joker, but I could see them bringing in Harley Quinn to stand in for Joker in part 3. I also see Joker using Riddler as a way to expose the truth about Dent.

Never gonna happen.

 

[Abadleon]

What didn't make sense to you?

I'll copy and paste from other board where I had this same discussion:

I dunno why they just didn't blame everything on the Joker anyways...if you're gonna lie about, why blame it on effing Batman?? ;p

Because the Joker was somewhere else when Two-Face took Gordon's family hostage, and already caught before Gordon bought the cops to the hostage location, and those cops are also some of the people who need an explanation. Especially since it was immediate, the choices were "Dent did it" or "Batman did it", unless they said "omg some random dude took my family hostage and killed Dent who was here for no apparent reason and then knocked Batman off the ledge and ran over there somewhere! Get him!"

Gordon could have blamed a Joker's goon and say that he escaped.

Would still have to explain why Dent was there in the first place, let alone killed by a run of the mill goon (who also managed to foil Batman)

Gordon could have said that Dent went there to help him to save his family. He could have said that Dent left the hospital to go after The Joker but he only found a Joker's goon who had been killing some people that Joker told him to kill (that would have explained the death of Maroni and company). Dent tried to stop the guy when he had Gordon's family kidnapped, but he was too weak because of the injuries and the goon was a experienced criminal/murderer, so the goon easily killed Dent and escaped before Gordon could do anything. Batman could have left the place before the police arrived, so he wouldn't have to be mentioned. I have invented this in seconds, Gordon and Batman could have done the same (or I am more intelligent than them).

Another thing I've been thinking is what exactly Gordon told to the rest of cops about what had happened. We just see the cops running after Batman without Gordon has still opened his mouth to blame Batman for all the deaths. Abominari said it was edited and I said it was wrongly edited because it didn't make sense, the police had not a reason to go after Batman if we don't see Gordon saying anything. Batman has been collaborating with the police and is Gordon's friend, everybody knows it. Even when officially they should arrest him, they have never done it, even having the opportunity, because Gordon didn't want. Then, why do they suddenly go after him?

The reason that we don't see Gordon telling the rest of the cops to go after Batman is because blaming Batman makes no sense. Like Machines said, Gordon would have to explain why Dent, Batman and his family were there. What could he say? That Batman had kidnapped his family to kill them? Why? And when Gordon received the call of Dent about his family being kidnapped, Batman was in the front building fighting against SWAT teams, Joker's goons and the same Joker, saving a lot of lives. There are a lot of witnesses in the building who saw Batman, so he couldn't be in other place with Gordon's family.

And still it would have to be explained why Dent was there (with a gun that he used to kill other people). Batman has been fighting crime for a while and everybody knows his main rule is not to kill (it is said several times) and that he never uses guns. All the people Dent killed was killed with a gun (the same one that he uses in the last scene that must have his fingerprints everywhere and that we don't see that Gordon or Batman hide it at any moment, so the police should have found it). Who could believe that Batman was sat in Moroni's car and shot the driver in the back in the middle of the day? (The police would know that all, I guess they may have a CSI:Gotham). Why would Batman kill anybody that way? It would be ridiculous. And why would Batman waste his time saving all the people in the ferries and Joker's hostages if he was a murderer? He even saves The Joker!

Everybody knows Batman and Gordon are friends, why would Batman try to kill Gordon's family? And the cops? And like I've said there are a lot of witnesses who had seen Batman in action saving a lot of lives while Gordon went to save his family. And Gordon still would have to explain why Dent was there and why Batman killed him and killed the rest of the guys with guns. And Gordon's family would have to lie too.

For me, nothing of this makes sense, and that is why we don't see how Gordon blames Batman for everything. It is just absurd, like a lot of other things in this movie. It would have been easier to tell the truth, that The Joker had manipulated Dent after a traumatic experience (would all the criminals that he sent to prison really have been left free? If a fiscal attorney wins a lot of cases legally, with the law on his side, and one day makes a crime or loses his mind, all the normally and legally judged criminals would be released? That would be stupid.) or inventing something else that made some sense.

The "no guns/killing" aspect of Batman isn't exactly common knowledge to the public. Joker puts the word out about it among criminals, but if people at large knew that then Joker wouldn't stand to benefit -- they would support Batman as much as the audience does, and Joker wants them to see Batman as a freak like him. Gotham is ready to believe whatever Gordon tells them about Batman; to them he is a mysterious force capable of literally anything. This is made clear from the public reaction in Dent's press conference. No one knows for sure that Batman was responsible for stopping the Joker from blowing up the ferries -- they just know that he left Joker alive. We don't need to see Gordon tell the cops anything; all Gordon likely says is "Batman just threw your district attorney off a building!" All the cops in the city will chase him after a call like that, leaving Gordon to cover up the evidence that Dent was the one responsible, and allowing his family to return home without arousing suspicion that they were ever kidnapped. That way, no one except Batman, Gordon and his family will ever know there was any wrong-doing on Dent's part. The fact that Batman runs from the cops would make everyone else believe that he committed the murders Gordon accuses him of committing, as well. By the way, I think the "five dead" are, in order:

-Detective Wuertz
-Maroni's driver
-Maroni
-Ramirez, whom Gordon assumes was killed by Dent (in fact, it's unclear what exactly happens to her, but one possibility is that she comes back to Gordon seeing the error of her ways and collaborates with him in the cover-up)
-Dent himself

Batman's motivation for killing them would be revenge for Rachel's death. Gordon wouldn't have to sell much of a story because everyone fears Batman and loves Dent. Gordon wouldn't be able to pin those murders on a non-existent goon that doesn't leave any evidence of his existence... there is no motivation for Joker or any one of his thugs to target those specific people.

Why should Batman revenge Rachel's death? Why would people think that that is his motivation if nobody knows that he is Bruce Wayne?

Joker (who collaborated with/worked for Maroni and the cops and together killed Rachel and almost killed Dent, and we know how Joker treats the people who he works with, thanks to the bank scene) had not a motivation to kill those people and Batman did?

And the five people Gordon is talking about are killed by Dent, not Batman, so Dent wouldn't count, And there isn't a body of Ramirez and nobody knows that Two-Face tried to kill her, so why would Gordon think that she is dead? We don't see in any moment that Gordon is informed about the people Dent killed, he is busy going after The Joker and has no idea where Harvey was (like he said to the mayor). And if Gordon knows that those people were killed by Harvey, somebody (other cops) had to tell him, so there is more people who knows that the killer was Harvey, not just Gordon and Batman.

The argument that people would blindly believe in Gordon's word is absurd, there are investigations for crimes, not just whatever the commissioner says is true is true. And still there are dozens of witnesses who saw Batman saving lives while Gordon went to save his family. And he still would have to explain why Dent was there with a gun with his fingerprints that was used in the other murders.

And everybody knows Batman doesn't kill and doesn't use guns, that is the reason Maroni and Joker know it. If people had no idea, how would Joker or Maroni know it? Just because they have met a couple of times and Batman didn't kill them? How could they know that he will not kill them next time?

And specially the police would know it because Batman has been giving them criminals alive for a while (I repeat: he even saves The Joker, then, why would people think that he wanted to kill the other people responsible of Rachel's death like you say?) and Gordon was his friend and trusted him. They even had the Bat-Signal on their building. Batman has already saved a lot of people during at least a couple of years (he even saved the whole city in B.Begins) and has never killed. The citizens wanted that Batman said who he was because they were afraid of The Joker, not of Batman. Even Dent says that nobody complained about Batman before because he was finishing with crime and saving lives. All the evidences would clearly say that it was Dent who killed the cop and Maroni and co. (the gun, fingerprints, DNA...he didn't try to hide that he was the killer).

Anyway, like I said in previous posts, Batman could have saved Gordon's family with a thousand ways that wouldn't have finished with Harvey dead (he appears from nowhere in a party full of people and with a lot of light and can't do the same in a dark and abandoned building without walls?). Or they could have easily blamed a Joker's thug for the dead people instead of blaming Batman, which is absurd.

 

[Copyright 2008]

First of all, how Gordon explains what happens at the end of TDK to the other cops, the citizens, and how exactly he explains what Batman did and who he "killed" and how his family was involved, all of that is entirely speculation at this point, there are no facts. I leave that to the sequel to explain. All that can really be discussed with any kind of seriousness is the fact that Batman took the blame for Harvey's crimes that have already taken place.

It all stems from the question that was posed from the beginning of the movie. What will you do on the day you find out what your limits are? The final decision on that question is Wayne ending the dissonance within himself over ultimately how he wants to lead his life. Everything in the film leads to that decision. So while it may seem unnecessary it’s actually far more necessary than you might imagine.

Certainly Batman didn’t have to take the blame for the murders. But he chose to. What does that say about his character? And who he decides to be. Just before doing it he quotes Harvey, “Die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain,” and then continues, “I’m not a hero.” And he’s not a villain. And from the way Harvey Dent is treated in this film he knows that a hero is someone you look up to, someone that can’t have any faults. It’s the type of light at the end of the tunnel Gotham or any city ravaged by crime needs. The people need to believe in true good but also need to be able to push their fears on something. That's the reality of Gotham.

This entire film is about people making decisions about who they are and in this case how Batman should be perceived and about what it takes perhaps to truly have an effect on the criminal intent. In that final moment Bruce Wayne, after not being sure how far he should take Batman, decides what Batman should be for himself and the people. It’s how he appears and is perceived. If he were seen as the hero that Harvey Dent was, the citizens would hold him to a much higher standard. People wouldn't dress up like him and put themselves in harms way. It’s not the kind of impact he wanted to have on the city, as he states at the beginning of the film.

There’s something very telling about the story Alfred imparts when about burning down the jungle to get the thief. If Batman were the Harvey Dent kind of hero, he knows he wouldn’t be able to do what needs to be done to get a criminal like Joker, as Alfred did. He knows as a hero higher standards will be placed upon him. And with those higher standards come a much higher level of courtesy, one Batman can’t always afford to have. One that won’t hold as much water for criminals in the long run. Again, especially criminals like the Joker.

And while he never really succumbs to this "no rules" Batman, he has to be seen this way now more than ever without Dent. That has got to be the SINGLE most overlooked aspect of the entire movie. This is Bruce Wayne totally giving himself up for the identity of Batman. Dent is not there anymore, Batman can't take his place as the "knight in shining armor" hero and Dent certainly can't be shown for what he has become. A compromise had to be made. That's the sacrifice Bruce Wayne makes.

 

[Abadleon]

First of all, how Gordon explains what happens at the end of TDK to the other cops, the citizens, and how exactly he explains what Batman did and who he "killed" and how his family was involved, all of that is entirely speculation at this point, there are no facts.

Exactly, and that is what I don't like, it is not explained because Nolan wouldn't know how to do it in a way that made some sense. It has been explained that Batman is a ninja and could enter in a party full of people and with a lot of lights right in front of The Joker to punch him and nobody sees him coming, probably Joker's goons and all the people in the party were blind and didn't see a huge guy dressed like a giant bat going where Joker is, and Batman could also enter in the little room where Joker is being interrogated without that Joker realizes, but he couldn't do the same with Two-Face, specially in the night, in a building without walls where he could have easily reached Dent or just have used some of the gadgets he has on his belt to let Harvey K.O. Didn't Batman have his "ninja-powers" that night? And his brain? Because if I was Batman I could have thought a million ways to save Gordon's family without killing Dent.

And like I explained on the post above, if they are going to manipulate evidences and lie, they could have easily done it to blame somebody else, like a Joker's goon (one "invented" by Gordon, so Batman shouldn't feel guilty for blaming an "innocent", even if that imaginary "innocent", if existed, would probably be a murderer anyway if he worked for The Joker) not Batman, that is ******ed. And if you are going to blame Batman, just explain exactly why and how, in a way that makes sense and because there is not another possible option, not just "because Batman that night had forgotten his Bat-Brain in the Bat-Cave" (yeah, I know that the Bat-Cave is not in the movie, but you know what I mean).

This kind of non-sense happens in several other scenes IMO:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=15514576#post15514576
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=15514579&postcount=2128
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=15514582&postcount=2129
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=15514828&postcount=2132
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=15517202&postcount=2143
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=15519757&postcount=2145

 

[zmystico]

mur⋅der

–noun 1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

Batman didn't MURDER Dent, there is a thing such as justifiable homicide...which is what Batman did. Dent was about to pull the trigger on a minor...that alone is grounds enough to whip out your Desert Eagle and unload on Dent, but Batman pushed him off the side of a building...a fall he also fell and survived due mostly to his suit. I don't see why people thinks Batman broke his one rule...his rule was he wouldn't be an executioner, he was doing the only thing possible to save a child's life. Would you rather he let Dent blow away little Jimmy so he could take Dent in alive?

 

[IAmTheKnight]

No, I'd rather him use his batarang to knock the freakin' gun out of Two-Face's hand.

And Batman's code is not limited to cold-blooded murder--it's like Gordon says in MOTP: "The Batman does not kill!" That's what bugs so many people about the tripping around that has happened in each climax so far. TDK might have been more tolerable had it been more clear that there was nothing else Batman could do--perhaps a shot of a weakened Batman mustering all he has in him just to throw his weight, much less have the coordination to be able to knock the gun away. As it is, we don't really get much indication of that--it comes across more like Marty jumping up with a furnace door on his chest in BTTF III.

 

[Anita18]

Exactly, and that is what I don't like, it is not explained because Nolan wouldn't know how to do it in a way that made some sense. It has been explained that Batman is a ninja and could enter in a party full of people and with a lot of lights right in front of The Joker to punch him and nobody sees him coming, probably Joker's goons and all the people in the party were blind and didn't see a huge guy dressed like a giant bat going where Joker is, and Batman could also enter in the little room where Joker is being interrogated without that Joker realizes, but he couldn't do the same with Two-Face, specially in the night, in a building without walls where he could have easily reached Dent or just have used some of the gadgets he has on his belt to let Harvey K.O. Didn't Batman have his "ninja-powers" that night? And his brain? Because if I was Batman I could have thought a million ways to save Gordon's family without killing Dent.

They made that decision for story reasons. EVERY story has parts in it that are illogical in real life, but nothing in real life is clean like a story has to be. Each story has to exist on its own, while real life is never ending. You don't have years to explain plot holes and character arcs, you only have 2.5-3 hours at best, and you still have to have plot within that time.

Bruce has viewed Harvey as a successor to Batman, so the story would have to end with Batman confronting Harvey, who has gone off the deep end. Batman has failed, and he needs to face this head on, instead of going around ninja-like. Harvey is not a faceless goon to simply beat up like all the others - Harvey literally meant the world to Batman. To take Dent out with one of his gadgets without even acknowledging their history would be a cop out for the build-up in the previous 2 hours.

Batman taking the fall was also for story reasons, because it was the very first time in the film that Batman is able to make a choice and accept the consequences. The whole time that Joker is going on his rampage, Batman can only react to lessen the collateral damage - he's never sure what he's doing is right. To complete his character arc, he has to come around and take initiative, and accept all that has happened. If that does not happen, Batman himself is a cop out.

 

[zmystico]

ok, for arguments sake...he killed dent, but was the INTENT to kill dent, or save the life of the son? I don't see how he could've thrown a batarang and hit the gun that was at the boy's head without hitting him also. Since Dent was standing so close to the edge, I doubt Batman could've done anything without Dent at the very least losing his balance and falling over the side...Batman hit Dent square in the chest and the boy still went over, there wasn't much he could've done. Even if Dent was holding the gun in a position to where Batman could clearly hit it without striking the son...Dent would at least have taken a step back or stumbled.

 

[Melkay]

^ Love your sig, man. lol

I gotta say that I also found strange that the cops went after Batman without any kind of intruction, but I later realized that Gordon told them to chase Bats... they just didn't show it. When Batman says: "Call them in" then the movie shows a montage of what happened in the days after Dent's death. It's during those moments that the instructions are given... they just chose to show other stuff that happened to be more relevant.

I completely agree with Anita here... it was not the only available choice, but, for Bruce, it was (arguably) the best choice out there. He was at the same time saving Dent's image and perpetuating his own as the watchful (and now even more unpredictable and violent) protector of the city. He distanced himself from the innocent people of Gotham to make safe, and he made the criminal underworld believe he had now gone rogue, to scare the hell out of them.