Grant Morrison: I still don't get it

[Visceral]

Oh, well, that won't help you with following and adjusting to Morrison's writing much. These are probably the kind of guys that might be something more along the lines of how Morrison writes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_S._Burroughs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_K_Dick

Morrison can't even touch those writers. he's a hack

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I like Grant Morrison, he's made some great stuff and All-Star Superman is one of the greatest comics I've read.

However he's got a huge problem with respecting previous continuity that really brings down a lot of his work. I mean, ignoring minor continuity issues is pretty minor, but he often changes the characters to fit the stories rather than vice versa. An example is the shockingly awful way he made Talia - previous love interest of Batman and very respectful - into an idiotic, egotistical supervillain who actually raped Batman. Jason Todd went from tortured antihero to red-headed crazy serial killer who would kills crims and coppers alike. Selina is not even mentioned in Bruce's love interests so he could highlight Jezebel Jet. There's he X-Men Xorn issue, but I won't get into that since I haven't read the storyline and many fans are mixed on the issue.

He also rarely gives women a good portrayal, such as aforementioned Talia and Jezebel being pretty much the only female characters in his Batman run, Wonder Woman being basically the only character in his JLA run to not recieve any development, the doctor in Arkham Asylum being criticised by every character.

Grant additionally tends to push his own characters ahead of time honoured ones in some of his stories.

So yeah, like every writer, he has his faults, and I love some of his work, espeically All-Star, Doom Patrol and JLA, but I find his writing faults are one that irritate me more than other writers and push me away from some of his stuff.

 

[yenaled]

I think his use of Jason Todd and Talia in Batman and Robin is to say that these two characters were only brought down to Earth by Bruce being around and alive to tether them, with him gone, they've lost that connection to the "good fight" and have gone the way they would have if Bruce wasn't in either of their lives.

Frankly since Jason Todd came back that version of the Red Hood is the only time I've liked the character and that includes Octo-Todd.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I think his use of Jason Todd and Talia in Batman and Robin is to say that these two characters were only brought down to Earth by Bruce being around and alive to tether them, with him gone, they've lost that connection to the "good fight" and have gone the way they would have if Bruce wasn't in either of their lives.

Frankly since Jason Todd came back that version of the Red Hood is the only time I've liked the character and that includes Octo-Todd.

That makes no sense; Talia had already raped Batman in Morrison's retcon and continued much villainy throughout his run even when Batman was still around.

Yes, but a massive tsunami of comic fans will correct oyu in saying that it is Winick's sympathetic antihero that is the likeable one, not Morrison's utterly cliched killing machine or, God forbid it happens again, Daniel's pure evil monster.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That tsunami is obviously wrong. Morrison was truest to Jason's core character by making him a totally deluded loser.

 

[Drz]

As big of a Jason Fan i am, i also liked what Morrison did for Jason. Infact i sorta hope we can see Jason in INC since Morrison believes Jason can be redeemed.

Anyhow here's Morrison cosplaying an italian facist:

 

[Mass Nerder]

What was "weird" about it that wasn't necessary for the story to be told? And why was it a bad thing?

You guys have a point, it was weird but it was suppose to be. I suppose it just wasn't my cup of tea, much like most of his stuff.

 

[kguillou]

I actually just finished reading All Star Superman and as someone who's not a fan of Morrison, i actually enjoyed it quite a bit. BUT, it wasn't an easy read. The whole "Bizarro/Zibarro" sub-story was incredibly hard to read in particular. Overall it was a great memento to Superman.

That said, i think Morrison's style of writing has a place for it, in my opinion i feel like it has no place in Batman. His Batman stuff is just too weird for me and he makes Batman into a god, which i feel defeats the whole purpose of an ordinary man trying to be a hero in an extraordinary world. He's had Bruce Wayne do stuff that only someone with superpowers could possibly be able to do. Again that stuff works with Superman but not with Batman imo.

 

[Mystirious]

I think Morrison is a really fab writer

I love his Batman and The Invisibles JLA Final Crisis All Star Superman and Doom Patrol are really neat

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I'm going to post the same link I posted on the ALL-STAR SUPERMAN thread:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/1008...rrison-01.html

It's sad to see Morrison having to explain his writing (I wouldn't wish that on any artist, ever) but he seems to be enjoying himself, so there's that. I suggest any one who is interested in his work to go through this article, because it explains a lot of the ideas that went on behind All-Star Superman. But here's one thing that I keep telling everyone (surprisingly in Grant Morrison discussions): It's not about what the author intends but what the reader perceives. It doesn't matter if he writes something that may appear too... I dunno, allusive? Too much Modernist? It doesn't matter because at the end of the day it is what you make it out to be.

I generally don't like Morrison's more recent works, but I admit I really liked his earlier takes, specially in the early 90s. I just can't see Morrison, a man who voices for counter-culture, to write for mainstream; it defeats his purpose. But I certainly don't mind that. A strong reason why I don't like his recent (mainstream) work in comics is because it's overtly Neo-Silver Age, and I'm just not a big fan of the Neo-Silver Age movement in general (or the silver age for that matter).

All-Star Superman was interesting; I applaud the book because it does tell a concise story and establishes what G.M. considers Superman to be. For me it was the ultimate Neo-Silver Age book even though Morrison clearly set out to tell a "for all eras" tale, it accomplished a Superman mythology that's geared more toward the pre-Crisis setting than the post-crisis-crisis world or whatever.

Here's another thing: I'm not meaning anyone in particular, but whenever there is any remote criticism on Grant Morrison, those who seemed to have enjoyed his work barks out that "You just don't get it!" In a very high-nosed, elitist manner that just spews out egotism. Don't be like that. Perceptions vary. We're not idiots. I applaud that Grant Morrison writes reflective stories, but that doesn't instantly make him a genius, for a writer it's more about what his or her impact on the readers is.

At any case, check out the link if you got the time. It's enlightening.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I actually just finished reading All Star Superman and as someone who's not a fan of Morrison, i actually enjoyed it quite a bit. BUT, it wasn't an easy read. The whole "Bizarro/Zibarro" sub-story was incredibly hard to read in particular. Overall it was a great memento to Superman.

That said, i think Morrison's style of writing has a place for it, in my opinion i feel like it has no place in Batman. His Batman stuff is just too weird for me and he makes Batman into a god, which i feel defeats the whole purpose of an ordinary man trying to be a hero in an extraordinary world. He's had Bruce Wayne do stuff that only someone with superpowers could possibly be able to do. Again that stuff works with Superman but not with Batman imo.

True, but then the critiques will say that it was Grant Morrison, the God of Comic-Book Counter-Culture, who gave us a 'Jungian Batman' a 'Batman who was psychological' and a 'Gothic, Expressionistic Batman that predated Tim Burton by a YEAR'. Maybe GM's trying new things. I'm still wondering just how much Dave McKean contributed on ARKHAM ASYLUM.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

That tsunami is obviously wrong. Morrison was truest to Jason's core character by making him a totally deluded loser.

I'm sorry but didn't we all vote that JASON TODD NEEDS TO DIE!? Oh yeah, I forgot. Counter-Culture. Down with...er...democracy? :P

 

[kguillou]

True, but then the critiques will say that it was Grant Morrison, the God of Comic-Book Counter-Culture, who gave us a 'Jungian Batman' a 'Batman who was psychological' and a 'Gothic, Expressionistic Batman that predated Tim Burton by a YEAR'. Maybe GM's trying new things. I'm still wondering just how much Dave McKean contributed on ARKHAM ASYLUM.

But again, I think Morrison works best when he's not trying so damn hard to be weird and non-linear. His first three issues of Batman and Robin with Quietly were excellent comics. They still had a bit of the trademark Morrison weirdness but only a little bit and it worked. All Star Superman had more weird stuff but he never went overboard on it kept a certain focus on the story. Final Crisis and Batman R.I.P on the other hand....they just weren't good. I know those books had its fans but... what in the hell was going on in those books?? Those were examples of being weird for the sake of it. I'm all for trying something different, god knows the industry needs it, but the guy needs to seriously work on the cohesiveness of his storytelling.

That said, the surprising thing is, in this day and age where the only books that sell are the "Mark Millar/ Jeph Loeb"-esque, bombastic, loud ultraviolent spectacles, the mainstream seems to have accepted Morrison's "unique" style of storytelling according to sales. In that respect i applaud him because it proves that being different can bring in numbers too.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Hmm, I suppose there is substance in that. But as far as I know, Loeb's recent works (Ultimatum?) were panned by fans right? It's like you said: it shouldn't be weirdness for the sake of it. I don't mind non-linear storytelling, and All-Star wasn't all that weird. But the last thing a writer wants is to be typecast, and 'weirdness' shouldn't be what defines Morrison's work - the only reason his work is being considered 'weird' is because he uses a lot of subtext. Some might call that an aspect of High Culture (but then again, with wikipedia... I don't think so), so yeah, good for Morrison.

 

[Drz]

I'm still wondering just how much Dave McKean contributed on ARKHAM ASYLUM.

No Robin atleast. Morrison wanted Robin to search data files and whatnot regarding Arkham Asylum, but McKean refused to draw him as he was already "limiting himself" or something by drawing Batman.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

heh. Yeah I knew about the Robin thing. I like McKean's art, it's different but not crazy.

 

[SpideyInATree]

The author of this thread does not like weird Grant Morrison. I guess he wouldn't be a fan of his Joe the Barbarian miniseries.

But you gotta love that Sean Murphy artwork. It's BEAUTIFUL!

 

[Frankenmation]

"Weird Grant Morrison" - My new favourite oxymoron.

 

[spiderbob]

This makes me laugh, as does most of their comics. And since it is relevant to the current discussion...

Who Understands Morrison?

 

[SpideyInATree]

This makes me laugh, as does most of their comics. And since it is relevant to the current discussion...

Who Understands Morrison?

Haha, that's pretty good.

 

[Tron Bonne]

The author of this thread does not like weird Grant Morrison. I guess he wouldn't be a fan of his Joe the Barbarian miniseries.

But you gotta love that Sean Murphy artwork. It's BEAUTIFUL!

I feel about the opposite. If you're not a fan of 'weird Grant Morrison', that's probably a really good book for you. It's a really straightforward story with little to none of the crazy, out there-ish concepts one tends to expect from Morrison (it's actually kind of on the dull and bland side, I think, storywise). The whole fantasy world is kind of weird, I guess, but it doesn't strike me as any weirder than any other fantasy thing

 

[The BatDude]

Here's my feelings on Morrison. It's not an easy read, at all. And this is part of the reason I like him so much. Every panel I don't understand has some root in DC Comics history. I appreciate this, immensely. He has such a knowledge and appreciation of continuity that he uses it to his advantage, hard. This is unlike Geoff Johns, who acknowledges continuity but twists it to fit his story to where the meaning of the original is lost.

Now, honestly, my favorite part of Morrison's works are the annotations. In such an age where all the info is so readily available through blogs, wikipedia, etc., there's no reason not to reasearch his stories and find out something about a character, say Batman, that you never knew before. It makes me a more knowledgeable, well read, comic reader.

what are some website or blogs I can check out?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No Robin atleast. Morrison wanted Robin to search data files and whatnot regarding Arkham Asylum, but McKean refused to draw him as he was already "limiting himself" or something by drawing Batman.

Wow, McKean's kind of a jerk.

The author of this thread does not like weird Grant Morrison. I guess he wouldn't be a fan of his Joe the Barbarian miniseries.

But you gotta love that Sean Murphy artwork. It's BEAUTIFUL!

Joe the Barbarian seems to be one of Morrison's less weird stories, actually. It's a pretty straightforward fantasy story at its core.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Actually, a book should be self-referential at best right? Other wise you get a very elitist feel to it. That alienates readers. True, interactive reading (the whole 'looking it up on wikipedia' thing -- wow, I sound like a granpa) can be used, but it shouldn't be over-used.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I know I'll probably be band from the board for saying this but I was just wondering if anyone else felt this way. Everything he seems to write most people love but to be honest the only he's ever done that I truly loved was his revamp of JLA in the 90's. I didn't care that much for New X-Men, I hated All-Star Superman, I hate Batman RIP, Batman and Robin is "ah" at best and Final Crisis I hated but how can I be expected to like something when I had no idea what the hell was going on. So up until this point I've given him a chance because so many people rave about him. Also I guess the thing I really didn't like about All Star Superman was that it was just weird for the sake of being weird. I know most people will disagree and I respect everyone's opinion, I'm just giving mine and wondering if anyone else felt this way.
Also I would be very interested in reading Batman Inc. if it weren't him writing it. Well anyway, if anyone agrees please feel free to post why and if you disagree (and I know MANY of you do) please tell me why he is the genius you believe he is. Maybe I'm just over looking something.

Morrison is all about the metatext. You can enjoy his work as simple action comics, but there is so much more if you dig deeper. Rikdad's blog has great analysis on many comic books, especially Morrison's Batman, B&R and Final Crisis, and i bet he has for All-Star Superman as well. Give them a read. His concepts will blow your mind.

Also, upcoming Detective Comic writer Scott Synder talking about the Morrison Batman run:

>SS: I'm always trying to learn from him - I re-read his "Batman" all the time. "Son of Batman," "Black Glove" and "RIP" - I mean, I understand when people take issue with the twists and turns and strangeness of some of it all, but if you step back and look at all the ideas, the way Morrison is expanding the universe of Batman in a literal way - with Damian, the Man-Bat Army, Jezebel Jet, The Black Glove, Knight and Squire - and figuratively, expanding the mythology and history and symbolism by adding to the Wayne family history, drawing the cave itself back through pre-history, teasing Batman forward too, into the future with the glimpses of Damian in the cowl. Reading his run is like watching the Bat U expand and deepen right in front of you. And regardless, there's no arguing with "Batman and Robin" - that series is one of my favorites in the last few years - I love it.

>My personal take is that watching Dick as Batman fight all of Bruce's rogues could feel too repetitive or wheel-spinning. Seeing him face his own villains, both street and super, I think that's the real fun possibility with Dick as Batman - otherwise, what's the point of having him be Batman. That's something that blew me away about Batman and Robin, getting back to Morrison; the Circus of the Strange, Professor Pyg, the new Batmobile, I love how Dick's Batman is a whole different force.

I also have a great analysis about Morrison's handling of Batman in the JLA and current Batman run, but its in my old PC. I'll find it and post it tomorrow.