Hip Hop & Rock Music: Could It Hurt FF2's "Epic" Quality?

[Lightning Strykez!]

Secular Music:
Could It Degrade FF2's "Epic" Quality?​

Secular music has long played a role in comic book films. Some of the most classic CBMs of the past (i.e. Reeve and Keaton's Superman and Batman films respectively) have featured music by a large bevy of pop artists i.e. Prince, Chaka Khan and....uh...Margot Kidder. LOL And although such projects might be considered to be higher on the "cheese" factor by today's standards, nevertheless the marriage of rock/pop music with divine contributions by composers i.e. John Williams certainly worked.

However, since its rebirth in 2000, the comic book movie genre seems to have shied away from this medium (the only notable example that sticks out in my head right now is X2's "Bye Bye Baby" by Backstreet Boys--or was it N'sync? ). Perhaps filmmakers abandoned this style in favor of making the films darker and more "realistic". Whatever the reasons, fanboys today have heralded such projects as "epic"--a word we throw around rather loosely here--and gauging the pool of films that fit this category, the exclusion of secular music seems to upgrade this quality for some fans.

Interestingly enough, 2005's Fantastic Four harkened back to CBMs of old, featuring a rather large amount of secular music. I could be wrong, but I can't think of another CBM in recent years that had as much non-score music sewed into its fabric. Tracks by a number of hip hop, rock and pop artists were alternated with John Ottman's score throughout the first FF film. Many fans complained that these inclusions took away from the "epic feel" of the film, making it mundane and "kiddie-ish" in comparision to other CBM properties. Others claimed that the secular music gave FF1 a certain "cool" factor that resonated better with mainstream moviegoers and widened its appeal.

I'll chime in later with my personal views on this subject, but for now what's your opinion? How much presence--if any--should secular music have in a comic book film? And considering FF2's storyline is the first Marvel film to go GALACTIC, could secular music (A) dumb down this film's epic style, or (B) widen its accessibility and relatability for audiences?

Your thoughts?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I don't like the non-soundtrack music, but I'm old, and Fox seems to be marketing this film with a lot of help from MTV, so I'd say you can bet on getting something similar to the first.

 

[Apollo]

all the music used in the first one suck, and made it seem more like a ****ty teenage movie, i HATE teenagers

 

[fantastic fifth]

Daredevil used quite a few as well including a couple tracks from Evanescence.

 

[Kelly]

Dang, I have so much trouble with Polls because my choice is never there....its irritating...lol


I would say definitely have some, but not more than the first.....why wasn't there a choice that said

Yes, but less than the first....

Seems to me choices 1 and 2 are virtually the same....

With Johnny, you have to have some.....thats just part of who he is....whether its in his car as he's driving, or if we have another scene of him on his motorcycle....there are always places to use a portion of a song or 2....

Most of the secular music in FF1 was heard in the final credits....only a portion of 4 of the songs from the 12 song CD were actually used in the movie, and of those less than a minute was used.....NOW .... had the editing of the movie been better, Ottman's music would have been much stronger IMO, and we would have had a much better balance....sooooo with that said, I would not blame the secular music for any music problems of the first movie, I would blame the shoddy editing of the movie itself.


BTW: Anyone starting a "50 Things Going Right For The Movie...." thread??????

just wondering....

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Dang, I have so much trouble with Polls because my choice is never there....its irritating...lol


I would say definitely have some, but not more than the first.....why wasn't there a choice that said

Yes, but less than the first....

Seems to me choices 1 and 2 are virtually the same....

With Johnny, you have to have some.....thats just part of who he is....whether its in his car as he's driving, or if we have another scene of him on his motorcycle....there are always places to use a portion of a song or 2....

Most of the secular music in FF1 was heard in the final credits....only a portion of 4 of the songs from the 12 song CD were actually used in the movie, and of those less than a minute was used.....NOW .... had the editing of the movie been better, Ottman's music would have been much stronger IMO, and we would have had a much better balance....sooooo with that said, I would not blame the secular music for any music problems of the first movie, I would blame the shoddy editing of the movie itself.

Yech.

I got my "<>" symbols turned around...fat fingers this morning. The second option was meant to be "for less than the first film." I will edit the poll verbiage for clarification.

BTW: Anyone starting a "50 Things Going Right For The Movie...." thread??????

just wondering....

It's coming. After the second trailer hits though...I need more varied footage to convert to gifs for the discussion points.

 

[Kelly]

Yech.

I got my "<>" symbols turned around...fat fingers this morning. The second option was meant to be "for less than the first film." I will edit the poll verbiage for clarification.



It's coming. After the second trailer hits though...I need more varied footage to convert to gifs for the discussion points.

Very good....


and


Very good....

 

[thegameq]

Yes.

If this film is to be the one that brings the franchise into a better light, yes.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Yes.

If this film is to be the one that brings the franchise into a better light, yes.

So to clarify: you're going with option 1 on the poll?

 

[Kelly]

I have to say: in reference to my Johnny comment.

One of the best scenes for Johnny, IMO, and was a favorite of the cast on the cast commentary....was the motorcycle scene...

When Johnny gets up and realizes the crowd is cheering for him, I'm sorry, but the music "made that scene" along with his facial expression....the music was perfect and totally added to the scene IMHO. Theres no amount of orchestrated music that could have done that, and accomplished what it did.

THAT to me is where the secular music could come in handy. To me the music used (not the orchestrated music) but the secular music was hoakey....and more popular music was needed for it to be used properly. OR music good enough to have a video from the movie on MTV, or top 10 on the Billboard singles chart.....if its not good enough to do that, then I don't want it used in the movie....

 

[TheShadowCat]

Definition of the word 'secular'

1 a: of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b: not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c: not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts> <secular landowners>2: not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation <a secular priest>3 a: occurring once in an age or a century b: existing or continuing through ages or centuries c: of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration <secular inflation>

Sorry, LS, when one knows the real meaning of secular, your post and poll make no sense.

>^^<

 

[Kelly]

Definition of the word 'secular'

Sorry, LS, when one knows the real meaning of secular, your post and poll make no sense.

>^^<

But you could also take it in the context of "time"....

Orchestrated music being timeless and epic.....as opposed to Secular music being the type of music that is "once in a century" type of thing..... or in this context popular today, not popular tomorrow. Less epic.

Looking at it in that context......made perfect sense to me.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Definition of the word 'secular'

Sorry, LS, when one knows the real meaning of secular, your post and poll make no sense.

>^^<

Actually, considering that I was raised with a Christian religion I'm fully aware of what the term means. However, since sci-fi/fantasy films "religiously" use orchestral scores for their films, I thought the term "secular" would be most appropriate to describe non-score pieces.

However, to be more clear I'll just make the thread title wordier.

 

[highguard]

This one is really hard to figure out LS, it depends on what tone Fox wants to set with this movie. I had heard they want to do an end of the world (war of the world anyone?) type promotion.

Now the score would have to be different than the first movie but we never heard much of the origianl score in the movie so its hard to figure out if more ottman will set a proper tone.

Honestly I would say that they should go epic and let Ottman loose if he can deliver that. leave a lot of the secular stuff out.

The end of the world, is like the biggest story you can have. This is bigger than Lord of the Rings in terms of the threat level. This is not about evil ruling the world, this is about life coming to an abrupt irreversable end.

That music in the trailer I thought was just awesome in terms of establishing what we are dealing with here.

I think it would be best to go epic and leave out the lighter secular music or just add a song at the end like in the first Lord of the Rings if they feel the need to include some.

 

[Kelly]

This one is really hard to figure out LS, it depends on what tone Fox wants to set with this movie. I had heard they want to do an end of the world (war of the world anyone?) type promotion.

Now the score would have to be different than the first movie but we never heard much of the origianl score in the movie so its hard to figure out if more ottman will set a proper tone.

Honestly I would say that they should go epic and let Ottman loose if he can deliver that. leave a lot of the secular stuff out.

The end of the world, is like the biggest story you can have. This is bigger than Lord of the Rings in terms of the threat level. This is not about evil ruling the world, this is about life coming to an abrupt irreversable end.

That music in the trailer I thought was just awesome in terms of establishing what we are dealing with here.

I think it would be best to go epic and leave out the lighter secular music or just add a song at the end like in the first Lord of the Rings.

Exactly, what I hear on the Score Soundtrack....IS NOT what I hear in the movie......I am moved by the soundtrack, it is beatifully written, IMO, but in the movie, the passion behind it.........is lost.

I loved the bell tolling in the background......excellent......

 

[Kelly]

Actually, considering that I was raised with a Christian religion I'm fully aware of what the term means. However, since sci-fi/fantasy films "religiously" use orchestral scores for their films, I thought the term "secular" would be most appropriate to describe non-score pieces.

However, to be more clear I'll just make the thread title wordier.

Nah, I liked my explanation better.......

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I have to say: in reference to my Johnny comment.

One of the best scenes for Johnny, IMO, and was a favorite of the cast on the cast commentary....was the motorcycle scene...

When Johnny gets up and realizes the crowd is cheering for him, I'm sorry, but the music "made that scene" along with his facial expression....the music was perfect and totally added to the scene IMHO. Theres no amount of orchestrated music that could have done that, and accomplished what it did.

THAT to me is where the secular music could come in handy. To me the music used (not the orchestrated music) but the secular music was hoakey....and more popular music was needed for it to be used properly. OR music good enough to have a video from the movie on MTV, or top 10 on the Billboard singles chart.....if its not good enough to do that, then I don't want it used in the movie....

I agree with you. I was really torn between options 2 and 3 because I do believe that a little bit of secular music (operative word "LITTLE") can be just enough to add some "seasoning" to a film like this. The abovementioned scene with Human Torch was a perfect example. But I also think that usage of this kind of music should be seriously restricted this time out, just because of the subject matter...or better yet, none at all.

With the first FF film I thought that the secular music sometimes took me out of the movie...and that wasn't a good thing. For some people I went to the theatre with it was an eye-rolling factor. Although it didn't nearly bother me on that level, I must admit that the sheer volume of it seemed to make the film a little bit more...cheesy than it had to be.

I'll admit this though: the origin film could afford to be cheesier because it was essentially about a bunch of newfound heroes clumsily figuring out who and what they are. So at times it was very appropro (like when the Four are getting used to "Home Life" in the Baxter Building--Reed's reaching for toilet paper, Johnny plaguing Ben with Shaving creme, etc.). My concern is that once again John Ottman's work will be overshadowed again to the point of being indisinguisable AGAIN. I mean, HELLO: Ga-friggin-lactus is coming. That's some serious ish and epic by nature. The music should coincide with this. Besides, as I mentioned, this is the first Marvel film to really "go there" as far as bringing aliens to an earth-based conflict. So why not go all the way instead of letting secular music anchor audiences in "reality"?

I'm just shuddering at the thought of a film featuring a classic character like Norrin Radd bumping to some 50 Cent.

 

[highguard]

^^ On a slightly related point, this movie presents an opportunity for Fox Marketing to have some fun with the movie, end of world type thing. And it would be so outlandish that they don't have to worry about the Boston cartoon network backlash.

...and I am sure Fox will remember to inform the authorities of their plans.

 

[Fantastic-Boy]

Maybe....Look at Spider-Man!

 

[highguard]

Well gotta go buy some computer parts to beef up my computer system to play around with animation.

This film has really got me geeked up I am actually excited about animation again.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Nah, I liked my explanation better.......

It was brilliant.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Maybe....Look at Spider-Man!

Yeah but did Spider-Man really have that much secular music in it? I do seem to remember SM2 playing "Raindrops Falling On My Head" when Peter was down on his luck. And interestingly, that's the ONLY secular track included on the Original score CD (and I believe SM2 had a soundtrack as well).

I think FF1 featured a LOT more...so much so that to this day many people can't even remember what the film's main theme was....

 

[Kelly]

I agree with you. I was really torn between options 2 and 3 because I do believe that a little bit of secular music (operative word "LITTLE") can be just enough to add some "seasoning" to a film like this. The abovementioned scene with Human Torch was a perfect example. But I also think that usage of this kind of music should be seriously restricted this time out, just because of the subject matter...or better yet, none at all.

Yes.....agreed....

With the first FF film I thought that the secular music sometimes took me out of the movie...and that wasn't a good thing. For some people I went to the theatre with it was an eye-rolling factor. Although it didn't nearly bother me on that level, I must admit that the sheer volume of it seemed to make the film a little bit more...cheesy than it had to be.

The eye-rolling for my group was in the music used....not the fact that it was hip-hop or rock, it was stupid hip-hop and rock...

I'll admit this though: the origin film could afford to be cheesier because it was essentially about a bunch of newfound heroes clumsily figuring out who and what they are. So at times it was very appropro (like when the Four are getting used to "Home Life" in the Baxter Building--Reed's reaching for toilet paper, Johnny plaguing Ben with Shaving creme, etc.). My concern is that once again John Ottman's work will be overshadowed again to the point of being indisinguisable AGAIN. I mean, HELLO: Ga-friggin-lactus is coming. That's some serious ish and epic by nature. The music should coincide with this. Besides, as I mentioned, this is the first Marvel film to really "go there" as far as bringing aliens to an earth-based conflict. So why not go all the way instead of letting secular music anchor audiences in "reality"?

Again, I don't think it was fault of the amount of hip-hop and rock in the first movie, but the editing of the score in the first movie....

I'm just shuddering at the thought of a film featuring a classic character like Norrin Radd bumping to some 50 Cent.

That would be wrong, but I would not mind hearing some 50 Cent as Johnny is walking into a club, or checking out the girls....BUT please make it 50 Cent, not some 2nd tear watered down rap....

The last song in the bar scene.....OMG........please never again.....

 

[Carp Man]

If it goes with the scene to enhance, or build the drama, why not. If you are just going to stick it in there because you think it would be cool to put it here, then no.

 

[Kelly]

If it goes with the scene to enhance, or build the drama, why not. If you are just going to stick it in there because you think it would be cool to put it here, then no.

One thing I've said from the beginning was that the first movie....was a "one superhero movie, and his sidekicks"....I think every scene that had rock or hip hop in it was appropriate to have that in it....but when a movie focuses so much on the character that would listen to that type of music....well then you get an unbalanced usage of popular music and the score..... IMHO....

To me, the only scene that the music was "off" was the bar scene with Ben and Alicia and the bar scene at the end with the very bad hip hop music.....

Had the scene with Alicia cleaning Ben been left in, that music only added to the creepiness of the scene.....it was this sexy music....and I'm sorry, but someone cleaning a rock guy, is just not sexy to me....passionate score music would have helped me in the creepy department...