Honestly, what are your thoughts on Kill Bill?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It's called Kill Bill, not The Epic Battle with Bill.

By that logic they shouldn't have had the 20 minute talk beforehand then, it just should have been his death scene.

 

[Lord]

By that logic they shouldn't have had the 20 minute talk beforehand then, it just should have been his death scene.

The logic is simply that the main character wants to kill Bill. How long a battle with him takes isn't important, the confrontation between the two is all about dealing with their oun issues.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The logic is simply that the main character wants to kill Bill. How long a battle with him takes isn't important, the confrontation between the two is all about dealing with their oun issues.

I disagree totally, but will leave it there, no point going over why as you won't agree with me either.

 

[The Joker]

Agreed, should have been much more than what we got.

The logic is simply that the main character wants to kill Bill. How long a battle with him takes isn't important, the confrontation between the two is all about dealing with their oun issues.

Really? Because all through the two movies her quest was to kill Bill, not sort out their issues and then kill him. He was on her kill list same as the others, and I didn't see her try and have any chats between the other members of the Deadly Vipers to sort out any issues before she killed them.

In fact the only reason her and Bill had a talk at all is because he forced her at gun point, and shot her full of truth serum, because he wanted answers off her, not the other way around. She had just wanted to kill him. Their little discussion of their 'issues' was good and all, but the 7 second scuffle afterward was weak and a total letdown.

I know you're a die hard Tarantino fan, Lord, but no offense you're being a bit ridiculous about this. If you were satisfied with it then good for you, but we were not for good reason, and your constant attempts to defend it by using silly logic like the movie is not called the epic battle with Bill is really silly and invalid. As if a movie title encapsulates the entire content of the movie.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Really? Because all through the two movies her quest was to kill Bill, not sort out their issues and then kill him. He was on her kill list same as the others, and I didn't see her try and have any chats between the other members of the Deadly Vipers to sort out any issues before she killed them.

In fact the only reason her and Bill had a talk at all is because he forced her at gun point, and shot her full of truth serum, because he wanted answers off her, not the other way around. She had just wanted to kill him. Their little discussion of their 'issues' was good and all, but the 7 second scuffle afterward was weak and a total letdown.

I know you're a die hard Tarantino fan, Lord, but no offense you're being a bit ridiculous about this. If you were satisfied with it then good for you, but we were not for good reason, and your constant attempts to defend it by using silly logic like the movie is not called the epic battle with Bill is really silly and invalid. As if a movie title encapsulates the entire content of the movie.

 

[Batmannerism]

The logic is simply that the main character wants to kill Bill. How long a battle with him takes isn't important, the confrontation between the two is all about dealing with their oun issues.

Yeah, I agree with you.

The fights with O-Ren, Vernita and Elle were about pure hatred and rage- but BK's relationship with Bill was a lot more complicated - hence he died in a complicated way.

I think people don't seem to get that he still loved her, and she him, but at the same time couldn't forgive him (and he didn't expect forgiveness). The contradictory and complex nature of that relationship required a big conversation and for her to kill him in a way that still reflected her feelings for her - hell, she cried when he finally died, not because she was relieved but because she was terribly sad things had gone so wrong and she had to kill a man she loved, the father of her child.

While I think Vol 2 could have used a bit more action in general (maybe an actual fight with Bud) I think the final confrontation with Bill was done properly - we surely didn't need another slash fest like the last 30 minutes of Vol 1.


Also, on a practical note, how epic was a fight with David Carradine likely to be ? He wasn't a spring chicken at the time, and his kung fu was always pretty dreadful (even when he was in "Kung Fu")

But hey, again, that's just my opinion.

 

[The Joker]

I really don't think anyone was expecting a 30 minute slash fest like the House of Blue Leaves massacre in part 1. That is just illogical to assume that was what people were thinking we'd get when she confronted Bill. She was fighting the entire Crazy 88 army there, not one person. If people expected that then they'd have been expecting the fights with Elle, O-Ren and the others to have been that long or near enough to it, too. People just rightfully expected an intense physical confrontation like she had with the others, because regardless of whether she loved Bill, she hated him for what he did ("You and I have unfinished business" - same thing she told the others, put him on her kill list same as the others etc) and wanted to kill him for it. The only thing that threw her for a loop was the revelation that her daughter was alive.

Before that she jumped in ready to shoot him. Heck even after that when they were alone she made a dive for a sword to attack him with and he subdued her with his gun. That's when the little chat began because he wanted answers from her. She had nothing she wanted to say to him. She was still ready to kill him. There was nothing stopping her from having a great physical showdown with him after their little 'issues' chat, and then shedding some tears that she had to kill him.

As for Bill being no spring chicken, since when has some advanced age been an issue for Kung Fu experts who have a few wrinkles and grey or white hair. Pai Mei didn't look like a spring chicken either. Some of the most famous martial arts characters have been older than Bill.

We all grew up with Mr Myiagi in The Karate Kid

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Bill was quite capable of fighting, as shown in a deleted scene with Michael Jai White.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I really don't think anyone was expecting a 30 minute slash fest like the House of Blue Leaves massacre in part 1. That is just illogical to assume that was what people were thinking we'd get when she confronted Bill. She was fighting the entire Crazy 88 army there, not one person. If people expected that then they'd have been expecting the fights with Elle, O-Ren and the others to have been that long or near enough to it, too. People just rightfully expected an intense physical confrontation like she had with the others, because regardless of whether she loved Bill, she hated him for what he did ("You and I have unfinished business" - same thing she told the others, put him on her kill list same as the others etc) and wanted to kill him for it. The only thing that threw her for a loop was the revelation that her daughter was alive.

Before that she jumped in ready to shoot him. Heck even after that when they were alone she made a dive for a sword to attack him with and he subdued her with his gun. That's when the little chat began because he wanted answers from her. She had nothing she wanted to say to him. She was still ready to kill him. There was nothing stopping her from having a great physical showdown with him after their little 'issues' chat, and then shedding some tears that she had to kill him.

As for Bill being no spring chicken, since when has some advanced age been an issue for Kung Fu experts who have a few wrinkles and grey or white hair. Pai Mei didn't look like a spring chicken either. Some of the most famous martial arts characters have been older than Bill.

We all grew up with Mr Myiagi in The Karate Kid

 

[Pink Ranger]

If you found the resolution to volume 2 unsatisfying, maybe that's the point. The film series is about revenge, and revenge, once consummated, is almost never satisfying. Just like the point of the view of the revenger, it's usually, "Okay, so that happened, now what do I do with the rest of my life?".

 

[The Joker]

I seriously doubt that was the point considering The Bride got a happy ending to go live a life with her daughter after she got vengeance. But that's not the complaint. The fact she got to kill Bill was not the unsatisfactory resolution. It was the weak physical confrontation they had which led to it.

 

[Batmannerism]

'
As for Bill being no spring chicken, since when has some advanced age been an issue for Kung Fu experts who have a few wrinkles and grey or white hair. Pai Mei didn't look like a spring chicken either. Some of the most famous martial arts characters have been older than Bill.

We all grew up with Mr Myiagi in The Karate Kid

I disagree with you on a number of levels there.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, and while I can accept fight scenes between older opponents vs younger opponents, one involving David Carradine would not have be all that spectacular.
For real-life martial arts experts age is still an issue, because they're only human like the rest of us. While experts who train sensibly and consistently can be very agile, quick and even powerful into their 70's (trust me, I've met people like that) they still feel the effects of age, and show it too !

Interestingly in 2012, at the age of 58 Jackie Chan announced he was cutting back on his stunts and trying to look after his body more ( look at his stunts in the awful 2010 Karate Kid, a lot less impressive even than his stuff in the last Rush Hour movie, in 2007).

As for Pai Mei, Gordon Liu, the actor playing him was a life-long wushu expert, who had been making Kung fu films since 1974 (see my comment above) with the benefit of wires and who was around 50 at the time, Carradine was nearly 70. Also, Liu has really toned down his stunts as he's aged.

As for Pat Morita, Mr Miyagi, well he was also around 50 at the time Karate Kid came out (again, a lot younger than Carradine). As someone who knows a little about Karate and Martial arts - having studied for nearly 30 years, I can tell you honestly that the Karate demonstrated by both Pat Morita and Ralph Macchio was pretty average (and that's being nice). The Karate Kid is one of my all time favourite films, and I still love it today, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that in a real fist fight William Zabka (Johnny, whose Karate wasn't all that bad) would have destroyed Macchio, crane or no crane.

The Pat Morita v John Kreese and Terry Silver fight scene in Karate Kid 3 was rubbish (not bad by 80's mainstream standards, but by today if you watch it, it's not good). Even Miyagi vs the Cobras in Karate Kid is pretty average. Back in the 80's martial arts choreography in mainstream cinema wasn't what it is today - hell, watch any Van Damme movie from that time, and keep track of all the slo-mo, and he was a real martial artist (again, not like Carradine). Even the Daniel San v Cho-Zen final fight in Karate Kid 2 is not great.

What IS great about the Karate kid movies (and the first 2 are great) are the characters the story the pacing and everything that builds up to those fights - so we can easily forgive mediocre choreography, so long as the good guy wins.

And we're not talking about Gordon Liu, Jackie Chan or even Pat Morita here, we're talking about David Carradine, whose kung fu is pretty crap at the best of times, who was an alcoholic and regular drug user and a pretty average actor.
If you watch his TV series from the 80's "Kung fu the legend continues" lots of his kung fu scenes were slo-mo, to hide how **** his technique was.

Chuck Norris (who fought Carradine in Lone Wolf McQuade) famously said that Carradine was " about as good a martial artist, as I am an actor."
What does that tell you ?

I've seen the Deleted scene with Michael Jai White (who is the real deal) and if Carradine looks decent there, it's because White is making him look good. If you watch that scene carefully, Carradine doesn't do anything particularly impressive (he doesn't throw a single kick, for a very good reason, his hips would probably give out).


So, to sum up, while in principle I have no problem with an older person fighting a younger person in a film (and I can accept that non-martial artist movie stars can actually put on pretty impressive displays e.g. Keanu Reeves, Laurence Fishburne and Uma Thurman) I still seriously doubt David Carradine would have been impressive in a protracted final confrontation in Kill Bill Vol 2.

But hey, that's just my point of view.

 

[The Joker]

Yes, I'm afraid you are completely misunderstanding me, and missing the point. No offense meant but what you think of the fight choreography of the Karate Kid movies, or what David Carradine was like in his other Kung Fu movies, or that he was an alcoholic and drug user in real life is irrelevant to what I was saying.

The point I'm making, and the fact of the matter, is elderly/aged characters, like Mr Myiagi, Pai Mei, and Bill, can and do be great kung fu masters. Their respetive characters were not criticized for being over the hill and looking ridiculous and unrealistic kicking ass at their age. Carradine doesn't even have to throw kicks to give a great fight scene. Lucy Liu and her side-kick Go-Go didn't throw and single kick or punch in their fights with the Bride for example, and their fight scenes were terrific.

If Carradine was so incapable or incompetent at doing kung fu, then they could have used a combo of stunt actors, wires, and clever editing to pull it off successfully.

 

[Victarion]

I had a good time with it.

 

[Batmannerism]

Yes, I'm afraid you are completely misunderstanding me, and missing the point. No offense meant but what you think of the fight choreography of the Karate Kid movies, or what David Carradine was like in his other Kung Fu movies, or that he was an alcoholic and drug user in real life is irrelevant to what I was saying.

The point I'm making, and the fact of the matter, is elderly/aged characters, like Mr Myiagi, Pai Mei, and Bill, can and do be great kung fu masters. Their respetive characters were not criticized for being over the hill and looking ridiculous and unrealistic kicking ass at their age. Carradine doesn't even have to throw kicks to give a great fight scene. Lucy Liu and her side-kick Go-Go didn't throw and single kick or punch in their fights with the Bride for example, and their fight scenes were terrific.

If Carradine was so incapable or incompetent at doing kung fu, then they could have used a combo of stunt actors, wires, and clever editing to pull it off successfully.

Okay, I misunderstood you, but I think you're misunderstanding me too.

As I said I have no problem with an older opponent fighting a younger one - my problem is still with David Carradine. They would need to do some pretty amazing visual effects to make him do a convincing fight scene (as in have someone else do the fights and then use CGI to put Carradine's face on their body).

In that sense, the lack of kung-fu skills, alcohol and drug use are certainly relevant. Sure I'm sure Tarantino could have made Carradine look great in a fight scene - provided that Carradine didn't actually do any of the fighting, and hey that used to happen a lot (although I'm a big fan of the trend where stars do a lot of their own fights e.g. Matt Damon, Keanu Reeves, Joel Edgerton etc.)

Check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtp-PK4jouI

I mean, this is Carradine at his prime, and the only bits where he kicks remotely convincingly is when his back is turned to the audience (for a very good reason, it's his stunt double).

In contrast, we see Norris' face when he throws spinning kicks, because he's actually doing it, and of course, in a real fight, Chuck Norris who was a former military policeman, real karate black belt, judo brown belt and world karate champion -would have made pretty short work of Carradine.

So maybe Carradine wouldn't have looked bad if they had decided to make a big climactic showdown (which I think was unnecessary anyway, but that's another story). However, the only way to do that was ensure that he did as little as possible of the fighting in that showdown.

To be honest, I'm very happy with the way it was done in the film - where they talked through their issues, and then settled it quickly (and not without regret).

But again, that's just me.

 

[Mysteryman]

I preferred Part II to part 1.