Justice League How would you feel about John Stewart amd Wally West instead of Hal and Barry?

[Kevin Smith]

^Great post!

Thank you. t:

I'm on the John Stewart-Barry Allen support train. And it's a very small train at the moment lol. But it works perfectly. There's no reason not to do it.

Yeah, for all the naysayers, they only need look at the Justice League cartoons or even the Justice League: Mortal script (overlooking its flaws, of course, and how little he is in/does in it) to get an idea of how a JLA film with the original 7 (Barry and Martian Manhunter) but with Stewart instead would or could work. Just as a basic formula/model I mean.

Like I said, I love Hal Jordan, but I see this as a perfectly reasonable, acceptable alternative if they choose not to (understandably) recycle the character. The GL movie was just SO bad. If I were a studio I'd want to distance myself from it as far as possible, make the GL mythos cool again (or for the first time for people) through tidbits like John Stewart in JLA, then upon audience's reaction crank out a few quality GL films down the line, Hal having a major part and/or being the lead in a few.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Nothing inherently "wrong" with him, he is just wrong for JLA and The Flash film. Particularly the first films in general. His very presence doesn't require just a simple explanation like "well there's more than one Green Lantern" like subbing Stewart for Jordan. There was always more than ONE Green Lantern from the very start (not talking about Alan Scott), it's one of the mainstays GL was founded on. The Flash on the other hand was created with the intention that there is only ONE Flash. There's no "Flash Corps", they do not need a Flash Corps, there doesn't need to be twin Flashes or several Flashes running around (from the same dimension (and timeline/era at least)). That's stupid and unnecessary, it defeats the purpose. It also takes away from The Flash's uniqueness and his place in the DCU; this guy got his powers from an unrepeatable one-in-a-million accident, it pushes plausibility that it even happened once, but to say it happened twice, that loses all believability, IMO. It was a hard sell for even in the comic books, and that's comic books. This is movies we're talking about, a much, much harder sell. And unlike Avengers (what with the aliens and all), DC hasn't even created anything to build on to introduce the more "silly" or "fantastic" or even "implausible" elements of their Universe yet (re: Iron Man, Agent Coulson, Fury, S.H.I.E.L.D, etc). But when they do it will be something that has to be done gradually like they did with Iron Man. The first Iron Man he is in Afghanistan, it's very real world grounded. By the time we get to Iron Man 3 there's been Avengers, aliens, "magic", etc, and the audience is ready to buy it and make the jump, but that's only because they were inched just a little bit closer bit by bit with each Marvel (or even Iron Man) movie. They'd have never bought or believed it if they were hit with it all at once right from the get go.

The only way you get two Flashes, especially two at the same time or back to back (a 1000 year gap MAY be acceptable...maybe) is that they get super speed in different ways. Which if you do that you're going to get a lot of hyperbole from people who are like "Damn, you can get super speed almost any way! Nothing special about that. Any freak accident = super speed in a DC comic film!" It's just an all around bad idea. Like I said, The Flash is one of the few DC characters to have superpowers from an accident, that has always been a mainstay of the character, something they founded his creation on like how GL has the GL Corps, that it was a freak one-in-a-million unrepeatable chance - in fact, The Flash is the only MAJOR DC character out of the big 7 to have his powers from an accident. How would it seem if you had multiple guys walking around with radioactive spider bites? That'd just be kind of stupid. And I'm not knocking Wally West because I like him as Kid Flash and there's a great idea for a Teen Titans movie but for the foreseeable, immediate future, Wally West has no place in the DC movie universe, certainly not in the initial Flash film and JLA. Even if he showed up he'd be in his damn teens (otherwise you'd have to make Barry Allen really old, like Jay Garrick), and nobody wants to see that. I would not buy him as The Flash or take him seriously as a respectable superhero holding his own with the JLA. No, they need THE Flash for these movies.

Create the language, then define the vocabulary.

This doesn't really answer my question. Both John and Wally (or Guy, Kyle, Alan, Jay or Bart) can be written so they are the "original" of their counterparts. The nature of adaptations, is to adapt.

Why would the role be difficult to take seriously if it were Wally?

For the record, I don't want John & Wally. They don't go as well as other GL/Flash pairings.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Sorry if I didn't read carefully enough, but what was the reasoning for John over Hal besides the 2011 flop? I wholeheartedly agree with your explanation for Barry (even showed me some stuff I hadn't thought of before) and since he's the Flash in the comics with Wally almost nowhere to be found, it's probably going to happen.

Speaking of probably going to happen, I can guarantee that either John or Cyborg will show up in the movie. Unfortunately, there's no way around it the way I see it :/ Diversity is a big thing for these kinds of movies now and it's undeniable that WB has it in mind with casting as well (see Perry White in MOS).

And as of right now, John seems like a better bet for, admittedly, the reasons that people like Kevin Smith and others cite - distancing from GL 2011. But if they care about the current state of the comics, Cyborg is another big possibility.

Basically, yes, because of the travesty that was the Martin Campbell GL film. There's always been the sort of unspoken "stigma" with the JLA that they're all primarily white, but let's face it - whenever an ethnic character has been added to the lineup, they usually always fall flat and suck mainly because they are not the BIG 7 and will never be able to hold their own with them. They aren't "iconic" like them (yes, I'm saying that even Martian Manhunter and Aquaman are "iconic" - and they HAVE to have Martian Manhunter in it, he's the Nick Mason of the JLA), they don't have the same status as them, and usually whoever is put in there is put in at the expense of one of the big, irreplaceable, iconic characters that have always been a part of the League (re: Cyborg over Martian Manhunter).

Cyborg isn't even an A list DC character. Hawkgirl is more A-list than he is. Cyborg is A-List only with the Teen Titans (Robin, Beast Boy, Kid Flash, Starfire, etc...you can't replace him in Titans)

So, using the frustration over the failed GL film as fuel to propel John Stewart into the JLA film, we also solve the goading "they're just a bunch of white guys" issue that people have with the JLA WHILE maintaining the A List, All star roster status of the original 7. You still get Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, The Flash, and (hopefully) Martian Manhunter and Aquaman, there are no second stringers that no one will really give a damn about (re: Hawkeye and Widow). All problems are solved and they're all still heavy hitters, and we don't feel bad for using John instead of Hal because the 2011 movie was so bad. It's an excuse that's justified on just about every level, IMO. I think it's perfect.

 

[Kevin Smith]

This doesn't really answer my question. Both John and Wally (or Guy, Kyle, Alan, Jay or Bart) can be written so they are the "original" of their counterparts. The nature of adaptations, is to adapt.

Except we'd like it to be as faithful to the source material as possible, amalgamations don't do any of these characters justice, especially if they're just calling Barry Allen "Wally West" or calling him "Bart Allen". It's pointless. Why not just use Barry Allen?

(Reminds me of the Superman TAS episode with GL, they called him Kyle Rayner because he had Kyle's artist job (a test pilot would have been harder to employ at the Daily Planet and tie to Superman's world back then I guess), but made him look like Hal Jordan and gave him Hal's origin. Good episode, world's better than the GL movie, the amalgamation works here in this case, but I still hate when they mix and match, although this is a very rare case and example where I will accept it because it worked for what it was for the most part)

Why would the role be difficult to take seriously if it were Wally?

For the record, I don't want John & Wally. They don't go as well as other GL/Flash pairings.

If you're adapting the Wally West of the comics (which is what I'd hope they'd do if they used him eventually) and not an amalgamation he doesn't make sense to be used in the JL and Flash films, particularly the first ones. I already gave reasons for why he is implausible and why it'd be difficult to take him seriously (which is the aspect I was answering your question in).

Other than that, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that you think people think he'd be like written really stupid and joking and jar jar binks like, are you implying that people are saying that would be difficult to take seriously by saying that (or defending that it wouldn't be?)? Are you asking why people "think" he'd have to be portrayed that way or something? I don't remember saying or implying that then if that's the case.

 

[shauner111]

Racial diversity IS a huge thing. Fishburn as Perry White in MOS, Jamie Foxx as Electro in TASM2. Avengers had its Nick Fury in Sam Jackson, you can best believe WB will push for either John Stewart's Green Lantern, Cyborg or a black actor for Martian Manhunter.

It's Barry Allen or no Flash at all for me. We don't need to see a Kid Flash.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Racial diversity IS a huge thing. Fishburn as Perry White in MOS, Jamie Foxx as Electro in TASM2. Avengers had its Nick Fury in Sam Jackson, you can best believe WB will push for either John Stewart's Green Lantern, Cyborg or a black actor for Martian Manhunter.

It's Barry Allen or no Flash at all for me. We don't need to see a Kid Flash.

And I don't see why the Manhunter couldn't be a black actor as his John Jones identity. Works for me. I'd be fine if they did that and used Hal as GL, in fact, that's the route I'd prefer they took. But there are people that would say that doesn't really "count" because it's only getting your feet wet in that Martian Manhunter is green most of the time. I don't see the problem with it personally but that's how others may look at it. But either way, sounds good to me. I'm all for John Stewart in JLA, also for a black actor playing the Martian Manhunter/John Jones regardless.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Either way, they have to 'soft-reboot' it. A change in visual style, recast characters, etc.

Either a recast Hal or Stewart is fine. I like both characters.

I do like Hal's dynamic with Sinestro though.

If they do go with Stewart, perhaps a presumed dead/missing Hal Jordan, recast, can make a return in a movie down the line.

For the diversity thing, MM can be black.

Also, just saying, The Avengers are all white

 

[cleverusername8]

And I don't see why the Manhunter couldn't be a black actor as his John Jones identity. Works for me. I'd be fine if they did that and used Hal as GL, in fact, that's the route I'd prefer they took. But there are people that would say that doesn't really "count" because it's only getting your feet wet in that Martian Manhunter is green most of the time. I don't see the problem with it personally but that's how others may look at it. But either way, sounds good to me. I'm all for John Stewart in JLA, also for a black actor playing the Martian Manhunter/John Jones regardless.

The black guy who played MM in Smallville... think his name is Phil Morris? He was great in the role and it would be pretty cool if he did it here as well. But I'm not sure if he even does anything beyond TV or has been in anything significant recently. But I really liked the little bits that I've seen of him in the role so if they could replicate that with another actor, that'd be great.

But personally, I find the whole "we need to appeal to minorities by twisting characters to reflect diversity" thing offensive. They're implying that a minority audience member has to have someone who is the same race as them to identify with or care about the character on screen. That just simply isn't true. As an African American myself, I can't stand it when studios try to push this kind of thinking. I'd much rather see (as you said earlier) a team full of original/A-list characters than random, less popular ones who share my skin color on screen stinking up my excitement. Thus, I remain a Hal & Barry advocate. But I can live with John.

Cyborg on the other hand... I would be very upset going in but I don't know if it'd be enough for me to boycott :/

 

[shauner111]

And I don't see why the Manhunter couldn't be a black actor as his John Jones identity. Works for me. I'd be fine if they did that and used Hal as GL, in fact, that's the route I'd prefer they took. But there are people that would say that doesn't really "count" because it's only getting your feet wet in that Martian Manhunter is green most of the time. I don't see the problem with it personally but that's how others may look at it. But either way, sounds good to me. I'm all for John Stewart in JLA, also for a black actor playing the Martian Manhunter/John Jones regardless.

I agree. I would definitely cast a black actor for Martian Manhunter. But in a small role. I wouldn't have him as an official part of the team though. He aids the JL in the movie and is on their side but not a member exactly. Starts out as a neutral character. Most members of the League, but not all, are suspicious of him, but by the end of it (or the sequel) he is a friend of the League when they need help.

In that case, Hal is good for me. But a total makeover is due. A physical suit that's designed for the actor. To get away from how they handled the first one in casting a big name like Ryan Reynolds, I would cast a young actor who isn't a star. Like a Henry Cavill, Chris Hemsworth, etc at the time of their first movies.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Either way, they have to 'soft-reboot' it. A change in visual style, recast characters, etc.

Either a recast Hal or Stewart is fine. I like both characters.

I do like Hal's dynamic with Sinestro though.

If they do go with Stewart, perhaps a presumed dead/missing Hal Jordan, recast, can make a return in a movie down the line.

For the diversity thing, MM can be black.

Also, just saying, The Avengers are all white

Haha yeah, I think on average the rule goes like more than 4, one of them has to be non white or non whatever the ethnicity of the others is. Lol.

I've had this for an idea for a while - why not have John Stewart be the main GL in the film and have Hal stop by mid way for a cameo, or have him in "hologram" form communicate with Stewart through the ring. A little nod like that would be enough, and it would already pave the way for a GL film. I definitely think the dynamic with Hal and Sinestro is essential to a good GL film. They'd have a truly epic film if they focused on Hal training with Sinestro on Korugar and exposing him as a "dictator" who ruled through fear (Emerald Dawn 2 storyarc coupled with Johns' stuff). I absolutely agree there, Hal has the deepest mythology for story material. But Stewart will work fine for JLA.

As for Martian Manhunter, I could see Djimon Hounsou as him:

I think he could probably pull off the voice pretty well (re: sounding like Carl Lumbly, who I always envision the Manhunter sounding like). There may be better choices and I'm going to keep looking...I just remember suggesting him from a few years back. What do you guys think?

 

[Kevin Smith]

The black guy who played MM in Smallville... think his name is Phil Morris? He was great in the role and it would be pretty cool if he did it here as well. But I'm not sure if he even does anything beyond TV or has been in anything significant recently. But I really liked the little bits that I've seen of him in the role so if they could replicate that with another actor, that'd be great.

Yeah, he was cool. He wasn't bad. But it's pretty much a given they won't be casting anyone whose been in Smallville or other minor DC properties as anyone in the JL film. I don't think they would anyway. Could be wrong though.

But personally, I find the whole "we need to appeal to minorities by twisting characters to reflect diversity" thing offensive. They're implying that a minority audience member has to have someone who is the same race as them to identify with or care about the character on screen. That just simply isn't true.

That is absolutely right. I have had friends of all ethnicities who have enjoyed comic book characters that were not their race - and why wouldn't they? It's about characterization and their stories and struggles as human ("human") beings. Anyone can identify with that. The irony is that by trying to be "not racist" they're actually...kinda being racist you know? Lol...it's that mentality that someone won't just identify with their character simply because he is human and because of his struggles in the story. (non directly related: I even met a guy who claimed to have created Luke Cage, said he sent Marvel Comics the story and drawings but they changed how he looked a little and called him Luke Cage instead of the name he had for him! crazy...but he was an african american himself and had been reading and collecting comics for years, just to reiterate your point that people like these characters and read them and identify with them regardless of whatever race they may be and always have)

As an African American myself, I can't stand it when studios try to push this kind of thinking. I'd much rather see (as you said earlier) a team full of original/A-list characters than random, less popular ones who share my skin color on screen stinking up my excitement. Thus, I remain a Hal & Barry advocate. But I can live with John.

It is ridiculous. And somewhat laughable. But unfortunately that is how a lot of studios think you know...and they'll probably continue to do things that way regardless.

Cyborg on the other hand... I would be very upset going in but I don't know if it'd be enough for me to boycott :/

I know I'll end up seeing it regardless (even if it's bad at least once), if not just to complain about it, lol. But I will be pissed if Cyborg is in the JLA film as one of the main roster.

 

[brainchild81]

I won't get mad if Cyborg's there, but I'm not really a big fan of his. To me John & Bruce are the only 2 that have to be there for me to see it.

Thank you. t:



Yeah, for all the naysayers, they only need look at the Justice League cartoons or even the Justice League: Mortal script (overlooking its flaws, of course, and how little he is in/does in it) to get an idea of how a JLA film with the original 7 (Barry and Martian Manhunter) but with Stewart instead would or could work. Just as a basic formula/model I mean.

Like I said, I love Hal Jordan, but I see this as a perfectly reasonable, acceptable alternative if they choose not to (understandably) recycle the character. The GL movie was just SO bad. If I were a studio I'd want to distance myself from it as far as possible, make the GL mythos cool again (or for the first time for people) through tidbits like John Stewart in JLA, then upon audience's reaction crank out a few quality GL films down the line, Hal having a major part and/or being the lead in a few.

I'd prefer John & Wally because of JLU, but I'd be fine w/John & Barry. Always liked Barry when I was growing up.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

i prefer cyborg gets introduce in one other heroes movies, particularly if mos 2 has to do with braniac, even if one doesn't have anything to do with the other original idea.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I don't want to see any other heroes in any Superman films, except an epilogue to Man of Steel if connected to the Batman trilogy. With my Flash/GL partnerships, I'm still gonna go with (in order of preference):

Barry & Hal
Wally & Kyle
Jay & Alan (closer to New 52 Earth 2)
Bart & John

 

[cleverusername8]

I don't want to see any other heroes in any Superman films, except an epilogue to Man of Steel if connected to the Batman trilogy. With my Flash/GL partnerships, I'm still gonna go with (in order of preference):

Barry & Hal
Wally & Kyle
Jay & Alan (closer to New 52 Earth 2)
Bart & John

Bart and John seems a bit random but I guess it's what you had to work with.

I personally support the idea of featuring other characters in the solo movies of others for two reasons. 1) It reinforces the feeling of a shared universe where these characters exist simultaneously with their teammates even in their solo adventures. I'm not saying that it turns into two or three way teamups post-JL, but if another hero shows up in a scene even just to say something or they have as little as a cameo, that'd be great! 2) It's another way to innovate away from what Marvel has done. Sure, BW and Hawkeye kind of did this, but they were severely disadvantaged due to the fact that no one knew who they were. In fact, many people who were confused about "who the bow and arrow guy" is didn't even remember his Thor cameo. It went right over their heads.

Having the character be prominent enough to KNOW that they were there and also make the connection back to the team up would be a great advantage to me.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Bart and John seems a bit random but I guess it's what you had to work with.

I personally support the idea of featuring other characters in the solo movies of others for two reasons. 1) It reinforces the feeling of a shared universe where these characters exist simultaneously with their teammates even in their solo adventures. I'm not saying that it turns into two or three way teamups post-JL, but if another hero shows up in a scene even just to say something or they have as little as a cameo, that'd be great! 2) It's another way to innovate away from what Marvel has done. Sure, BW and Hawkeye kind of did this, but they were severely disadvantaged due to the fact that no one knew who they were. In fact, many people who were confused about "who the bow and arrow guy" is didn't even remember his Thor cameo. It went right over their heads.

Having the character be prominent enough to KNOW that they were there and also make the connection back to the team up would be a great advantage to me.

I went with Bart and John because that was pretty much the partnership of the DCAU, but with Wally's name (like how Tim Drake was essentially Jason Todd).

As for characters crossing over, more than anyone else, I want Superman to have an entirely self contained series, much like The Dark Knight Trilogy that I can watch from start to finish without needing to watch extraneous materials. Going the Marvel way that can't happen. I don't even want plot threads to be carried over from Justice League to solos.

 

[cleverusername8]

Well, including other characters in solos wouldn't necessarily mean you have to watch other movies to appreciate them. The story, the villain, and all tha would be strictly for the wolo hero but others could show up to talk or maybe one scene of fighting if it makes sense in the story to include them.

 

[Mr.?]

Hal is better then John in every possible way. Why not just make Hal Jordan black? haha.

 

[cleverusername8]

Hal is better then John in every possible way. Why not just make Hal Jordan black? haha.

Terrible idea. They might as well just do what the Flash of DCAU fame did: be an amalgamation. John's name and face, Hal's story and personality? But making Hal black is useless and definitely going to draw backlash. Plus, people would ask "Why not just use John?"

 

[Kevin Smith]

I won't get mad if Cyborg's there, but I'm not really a big fan of his. To me John & Bruce are the only 2 that have to be there for me to see it.
I'd prefer John & Wally because of JLU, but I'd be fine w/John & Barry. Always liked Barry when I was growing up.

The Flash on JLU was Barry Allen in story and character, they just called him Wally West and gave him red hair and dumbed him down. So if you liked JL/JLU's Flash then you're liking Barry Allen but just don't know it. Kind of like how Green Lantern was on Superman: TAS.

Even as far back as Superman TAS before it was decided Flash's secret identity was Wally or not the guy who wrote the episode in which Flash appeared considered him to be Barry Allen. I forget where the link to the interview is... (it's on jl.toonzone)

I am just saying if they do use Wally, they will most likely do what they did on JLU; use Barry's story and character but call him Wally West. Which defeats the purpose, IMO, even if it worked on JL (to avoid the long convulted, non self contained backstory and origin Wally has, and every other Flash who is not Barry Allen). I just say use Barry Allen. And not just because of that reasoning, because I like him best, but I don't see a reason why not to.

 

[shauner111]

My only fear is that they'll use Wally West if they go with John Stewart.

I really want to see something different here. Barry Allen and John Stewart. There's no reason why they couldn't go with either A) the relationship that Wally/John have but throw it onto Barry or B) the Barry/Hal buddy relationship but throw it onto John.

John has to be more serious than Hal no doubt, but why not add a little more personality, the odd Hal characteristic.

 

[KangConquers]

I'm partial to Barry Allen and a recast Hal Jordan, but Wally and John wouldn't ruin the movie for me.

 

[shauner111]

I think it would if it was Wally. For me at least. Barry is the much more mature character, which is what I prefer. And what I think fits the Nolanverse.

You can say the same about John over Hal. This is why I think Barry/John could make a great addition to TDK trilogy Batman, and MOS Superman.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I like Hal's dynamic in the league more personally, but I'd be fine with John as well.

I also don't think all the characters have to be 'serious' just because it's nolanverse. Hathaway's Catwoman was plenty playful.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah Hal has the better dynamic especially with Barry and Bruce. But John fits this tone and it's nothing a few tweaks can't fix to give him some dynamics with Barry and the rest of them.

She was more playful yeah. They need to be lighter than Batman that's for sure. But even Selina wasn't just a playful character. Add a touch of humor to John then make him absolutely focused with everything else.