Comics Howard Mackie relaunch/Jenkins PP run compared to BND

[Miken Ayers]

About seven years ago when Spider-Man comics were once again a hot discussion through Ultimate and JMS's run I read an interview with Joe Quesada. He said that before this Marvel was really getting ready to give up on Spider-Man and they thought there was nothing more to do with him.

Now if anyone here wasn't reading during the period Quesada was talking about, all the Spider-Man books were relaunched with new issue 1's. It went from four books to two and they were both written by Howard Mackie. Before the relaunch there were two stories called The Gathering of the Five and Final Chapter where Norman Osborn got five different obscure Spider-Man villains and supporting cast members to bring some magic stones together. Three would grant some sort of borderlined omnipotent power, and two would either grant insanity or death.

Now during this time there was a subplot going where Peter and Mary Jane learn that "May is still alive". We're led to believe this means their daughter, but it ends up being Aunt May who was thought to have been dead the past four years. (Kinda like Harry right now)

Well anyways We find out that Norman Osborn implanted some sort of microchip or something in her head that if left in would kill her, and if taken out would set off several clusters of pumpkin bombs strategically placed all over the city. Spider-Man get's desperate pounds the dog crap out of Osborn, and races back to Reed Richards to let him know the situation. They then disable the chip without setting off the bombs or killing her. (Save Aunt May = reboot)

Peter quits, and the new series begins with the MU asking where Spider-Man is. They make it clear that he hasn't been in costume for sometime. So anyway a new Spider-Man shows up that ends up being Mattie Franklin from the Gathering of Five (Remember when Screwball was Spider-Man?).

So next a whole slew of uninteresting villains are brought in(In BND we get Screwball, Paper Doll, Overdrive, Mr. Negative, Menace, Loli Kraven, Anti Venom and any others I might've missed), Mary Jane seemingly dies and after her death is accepted Peter does show interest in other women, Peter loses his job which leads to him struggling with his rent, He rooms with Robbie Robertson and it leads in to Peter making new friends, AND about ten months in when the new villains aren't cutting it classic villains start poking their heads in including Eddie Brock reuniting with his symbiote to be Venom again (New Ways to DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE!). Also in there is an issue where Peter needs to catch the badguy in time to get to a job interview. (Howard Mackie did that by himself. Quesada needed the whole braintrust to steal that from him)

Over this period of time we get story arcs and subplots that do nothing but raise an assload of questions. However whenever we get the tiniest insight to what's happening it only raises more questions and a lot of these remain unanswered today.

Sound like a lot what we're getting today?

So back when this book was doing poor sales by Spider-Man standards it did seem to be somewhat reminiscent of the 70s/80s status quo. However this was also what almost led to Marvel giving up on Spider-Man. However now the book is once again like this, and Marvel is adamant on keeping it this way saying this is where Spider-Man needs to be, but again they desperately needed something fresh last time they did this to...Gotta stop now before I keep talking in circles.

Just something for people to think about.

 

[USMC]

Huh...

Guy's kinda got a point.

 

[imdaly]

I'm very tempted to go through your post history and see if ANY of your 304 posts so far have anything positive to say about things.

I'm sorry, but you really come off to me like the Comic Book Guy on The Simpsons who just seems to get off thinking that everything is the worst. thing. ever.

Come on, Sunshine! Put on a happy face!

 

[Styleshift]

About seven years ago when Spider-Man comics were once again a hot discussion through Ultimate and JMS's run I read an interview with Joe Quesada. He said that before this Marvel was really getting ready to give up on Spider-Man and they thought there was nothing more to do with him.

Now if anyone here wasn't reading during the period Quesada was talking about, all the Spider-Man books were relaunched with new issue 1's. It went from four books to two and they were both written by Howard Mackie. Before the relaunch there were two stories called The Gathering of the Five and Final Chapter where Norman Osborn got five different obscure Spider-Man villains and supporting cast members to bring some magic stones together. Three would grant some sort of borderlined omnipotent power, and two would either grant insanity or death.

Now during this time there was a subplot going where Peter and Mary Jane learn that "May is still alive". We're led to believe this means their daughter, but it ends up being Aunt May who was thought to have been dead the past four years. (Kinda like Harry right now)

Well anyways We find out that Norman Osborn implanted some sort of microchip or something in her head that if left in would kill her, and if taken out would set off several clusters of pumpkin bombs strategically placed all over the city. Spider-Man get's desperate pounds the dog crap out of Osborn, and races back to Reed Richards to let him know the situation. They then disable the chip without setting off the bombs or killing her. (Save Aunt May = reboot)

Peter quits, and the new series begins with the MU asking where Spider-Man is. They make it clear that he hasn't been in costume for sometime. So anyway a new Spider-Man shows up that ends up being Mattie Franklin from the Gathering of Five (Remember when Screwball was Spider-Man?).

So next a whole slew of uninteresting villains are brought in(In BND we get Screwball, Paper Doll, Overdrive, Mr. Negative, Menace, Loli Kraven, Anti Venom and any others I might've missed), Mary Jane seemingly dies and after her death is accepted Peter does show interest in other women, Peter loses his job which leads to him struggling with his rent, He rooms with Robbie Robertson and it leads in to Peter making new friends, AND about ten months in when the new villains aren't cutting it classic villains start poking their heads in including Eddie Brock reuniting with his symbiote to be Venom again (New Ways to DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE!). Also in there is an issue where Peter needs to catch the badguy in time to get to a job interview. (Howard Mackie did that by himself. Quesada needed the whole braintrust to steal that from him)

Over this period of time we get story arcs and subplots that do nothing but raise an assload of questions. However whenever we get the tiniest insight to what's happening it only raises more questions and a lot of these remain unanswered today.

Sound like a lot what we're getting today?

So back when this book was doing poor sales by Spider-Man standards it did seem to be somewhat reminiscent of the 70s/80s status quo. However this was also what almost led to Marvel giving up on Spider-Man. However now the book is once again like this, and Marvel is adamant on keeping it this way saying this is where Spider-Man needs to be, but again they desperately needed something fresh last time they did this to...Gotta stop now before I keep talking in circles.

Just something for people to think about.

YOU FORGOT THE SQUID DAMMIT!
But on a more serious note...

That was actually a brilliant comparison. You didn't sound one bit biased this time...you just presented facts. good job

thats why I personally feel that BND SUCKS when your reading it as in continuity stuff....but looking at it as stand alone issues? they are pretty good in some cases.

 

[Styleshift]

I'm very tempted to go through your post history and see if ANY of your 304 posts so far have anything positive to say about things.

I'm sorry, but you really come off to me like the Comic Book Guy on The Simpsons who just seems to get off thinking that everything is the worst. thing. ever.

Come on, Sunshine! Put on a happy face!

Give him a break Imdaly...he's talking about the Mackie run lol.

Which is true there are ALOT of similarities.....even Mackies run got all political during one point. thats something he forgot to mention. (the senator)
I don't think Mackie was a terrible writer by no means. his work just felt so boring at times....and when he gave us something interesting he NEVER answered it. than again the last goblin reveal was so lame....

 

[imdaly]

While I will admit that there are a lot of similarities you can find between the Mackie era of Spidey and this BND era so far, I'd argue that a lot of the similarities are ones you can find ALL THROUGH Spidey's history.

I can find to a whole slew of "uninteresting new villains" all through Spidey's history. The Fly. Humbug. Typeface. The Frog. Kangaroo. Gibbon. Etc.

I can other roommates that Spidey has had. Harry Osborn anyone?

I can find other times Peter's gotten desperate to save Aunt May's life.

I can find other times MJ has been written out of the book.

I can find other times Peter's been introduced to a new crew of friends.

I can find other times that the public has wondered what happened so Spider-Man.

I can find other times a character has been brought back from the dead after an extended period of time of being "dead".

Mackie has not been the first one to ever do any of these things, so to try to equate Mackie's horrible run with Spidey's requires you to forget that those similarities are true for a vast majority of Spidey's history.

The original post is in most cases correct (though I definitely disagree that Paper Doll, Mr. Negative, Menace, Young Kraven, or Anti-Venom are "uninteresting"), but they're slanted in a way to try to equate it with a horrible run from a few years ago.

I simply respectfully disagree with the implications of the post. But I certainly have to give credit to Miken for at least doing a great job of explaining what he's trying to say and backing it up.

 

[farmernudie]

I thought it was a very interesting post, with what they had done to "reboot" it, in comparison to now. I'd forgotten much of that.

Very formula.

Now and then.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Darn! So similar and to think that the mess known as the Mackie-era was nearly 10 years ago... But the MAckie era is better than the Quesada era fgor one single reason... Spidey did not deal with the devil in order to have Aunt May's wheatcakes (Now with extra brimstone and Comdemned Soul syrup)

 

[shinlyle]

Even I tire of reading Miken's posts from time to time, but this one was dead on.

As someone who came back during the Mackie run, this really hit home for me. I remember getting back into Spider-man after finding out about the relaunch, only to drop it again at around issue #18. I remember PPSM being the only title even resembling Spider-Man for the longest time thanks to Paul Jenkins.

Still, I'm looking at the current state of things, and it seems that Miken is 100% right. Here it is, not even a decade later, and they're rebooting/relaunching again. Both times they managed to kill off Baby May in the process though....which is eerie.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Having reread some of the Mackie/Byrne reboot on my ASM 40 years DVD, I can ASSURE everyone here it is MUCH, much worse than BND. As well, I'd take Mephisto over "Chapter One" any day of the week. Time makes us forget how utterly horrendous those stories were. Aunt May talking about that "awful Spider-Man and Green Goblin" keeping her kidnapped as if it were an inconvenience on the level of being in the long line at the supermarket. Sandman suddenly going bad. Captain Power and that whole stupid "Chapter One" tie-in that now makes no sense and sticks out like a sore thumb. Mattie Franklin as the 15 year old jailbait Spider-"Man" who kissed Peter when he was mourning for Mary Jane. Peter being homeless and being a dishwasher. Senator Ward, Mary Jane's plane crash and the melty fifth Green Goblin. Tricorp? C'mon... How soon we forget.

 

[moraldeficiency]

While I will admit that there are a lot of similarities you can find between the Mackie era of Spidey and this BND era so far, I'd argue that a lot of the similarities are ones you can find ALL THROUGH Spidey's history.

I can find to a whole slew of "uninteresting new villains" all through Spidey's history. The Fly. Humbug. Typeface. The Frog. Kangaroo. Gibbon. Etc.

I can other roommates that Spidey has had. Harry Osborn anyone?

I can find other times Peter's gotten desperate to save Aunt May's life.

I can find other times MJ has been written out of the book.

I can find other times Peter's been introduced to a new crew of friends.

I can find other times that the public has wondered what happened so Spider-Man.

I can find other times a character has been brought back from the dead after an extended period of time of being "dead".

Mackie has not been the first one to ever do any of these things, so to try to equate Mackie's horrible run with Spidey's requires you to forget that those similarities are true for a vast majority of Spidey's history.

The original post is in most cases correct (though I definitely disagree that Paper Doll, Mr. Negative, Menace, Young Kraven, or Anti-Venom are "uninteresting"), but they're slanted in a way to try to equate it with a horrible run from a few years ago.

I simply respectfully disagree with the implications of the post. But I certainly have to give credit to Miken for at least doing a great job of explaining what he's trying to say and backing it up.

You bring up that the same plot lines have been used over the years, but that's not really the point of the original post. You seem like a magician distracting from what his other hand is really doing. The mentions that you have are strung out over the entire course of Peter Parker's life. We're not talking about that. The original post is specific to reboots and specific to OMD and the Mackie run. On that he's completely dead on. There are startling similarities to then and now, and while it might be easy to dismiss this as "well all the stories have been done before" which is true, to have some many recurring plotlines specific to reboots happen at once, that's not just writers accidently using a previous written idea, it's a entire concept that failed once before, epically.




I personally wasn't reading ASM during that time as I was still off from the clone saga, but I've read a few back issues some friend's had and have a basic idea. I never looked at it like this, but damn Miken is dead on here.

Frankly it's great news, this is a trend with a happy ending eventually.




Oh, and nothing I've ever read in comics has been as bad, out of character, illogical and downright insulting as OMD. Not chapter one, not the clone saga, nothing. Peter Parker sold his marriage to the DEVIL. The devil even told him how special it was, how this would let him get a big WIN OVER GOD, and he still was cool with it. Doing this forced May to live AGAINST HER WILL. And let's not forget mystically ABORTED his child. This is the opposite of any sembance of responsibility not to mention bad storytelling. This isn't peter making a mistake. Math errors are mistakes, this is more akin to peter parker becoming a rapist or something equally vile in my eyes and just as out of character. And it's not like after this horrific and evil act we've gotten these amazing stories that could only happen now. There's been zip that couldn't have been done before. Every review I've read, even the positive ones, have shown OMD/BND as underwhelming, new characters like Vin and Carlie that serve no purpose but to annoy, new villians that show just what a loser this bizarro Peter Parker really is, and a new status quo which only confuses (the positive reviewers seem to all agree the only way to read this is to pretend like OMD didn't happen for the time being or they get too caught up in questions to enjoy the issues).

 

[Spider-Gnome]

You know, I knew these were both reboots, but I hadn't realize just how similar the two were! You're right! Good call Miken!

And also the others who added to the similarities, like the political angle and even the wiping out of baby May!

And your mentioning of The Gathering of the Five and Final Chapter, reminds me. Hope you're checking out Mr. & Mrs. Spider-Man in Amazing Spider-Man Family. It follows that Spidey actually DID find Baby May instead of Aunt May!

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Oh, and nothing I've ever read in comics has been as bad, out of character, illogical and downright insulting as OMD. Not chapter one, not the clone saga, nothing. Peter Parker sold his marriage to the DEVIL. The devil even told him how special it was, how this would let him get a big WIN OVER GOD, and he still was cool with it. Doing this forced May to live AGAINST HER WILL. And let's not forget mystically ABORTED his child. This is the opposite of any sembance of responsibility not to mention bad storytelling.

I couldn't agree with you more!

 

[Styleshift]

While I will admit that there are a lot of similarities you can find between the Mackie era of Spidey and this BND era so far, I'd argue that a lot of the similarities are ones you can find ALL THROUGH Spidey's history.

I can find to a whole slew of "uninteresting new villains" all through Spidey's history. The Fly. Humbug. Typeface. The Frog. Kangaroo. Gibbon. Etc.

I can other roommates that Spidey has had. Harry Osborn anyone?

I can find other times Peter's gotten desperate to save Aunt May's life.

I can find other times MJ has been written out of the book.

I can find other times Peter's been introduced to a new crew of friends.

I can find other times that the public has wondered what happened so Spider-Man.

I can find other times a character has been brought back from the dead after an extended period of time of being "dead".

Mackie has not been the first one to ever do any of these things, so to try to equate Mackie's horrible run with Spidey's requires you to forget that those similarities are true for a vast majority of Spidey's history.

The original post is in most cases correct (though I definitely disagree that Paper Doll, Mr. Negative, Menace, Young Kraven, or Anti-Venom are "uninteresting"), but they're slanted in a way to try to equate it with a horrible run from a few years ago.

I simply respectfully disagree with the implications of the post. But I certainly have to give credit to Miken for at least doing a great job of explaining what he's trying to say and backing it up.

wait, roll it back a min.
He's not saying "only mackie wrote such stories in such ways".
He's just saying that the way BND is playing out THUS FAR is very similar to that of Mackie's run.

of course he wrote it biased. thats miken for ya. but your post can also be considered biased if you choose to view it that way.

I mean have you seen what MOST people are saying about these new villians? No one on here is really talking about holy crap MENACE IS SO AWESOME, I REALLY WANT TO SEE MR. NEGATIVE back!

Not trying to start an argument buddy... we're all friends here. t:

besides comparing mackie, the fly, and BND is not really helping your point anyways. lol.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Maybe I don't know enough about Miken and his bias, but aren't we all biased somehow?

I think all he did was lay out what happened in Mackie's reboot and what happened in this reboot, point by point.

 

[Styleshift]

Maybe I don't know enough about Miken and his bias, but aren't we all biased somehow?

I think all he did was lay out what happened in Mackie's reboot and what happened in this reboot, point by point.

That's the point I was making lol.
even though I agree with him 75 percent of the time. I'm not going to act like everything he says is written in stone. more like written while stoned. (love you mikey! )
Miken does have a way of making most of us non-bnd fans look like village people with torches....which is so wrong, thats why Marvel doesn't listen to us.


truth is I rock a tank. like batman....

 

[Themanofbat]

Which is true there are ALOT of similarities.....even Mackies run got all political during one point. thats something he forgot to mention. (the senator)

One big difference... and that being that Peter and MJ are not together.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

One big difference... and that being that Peter and MJ are not together.

But then he does go on when they "blowed up MJ real good," and he had to go on without her.

 

[kguillou]

I'm not gona lie, i was sorta rooting for Jill Stacy during that run, she was hot. lol

 

[Blader5489]

One big difference... and that being that Peter and MJ are not together.

No, the big difference is that Mackie's writing was trash while BND is at least readable.

 

[Styleshift]

One big difference... and that being that Peter and MJ are not together.

Yup,
Instead during Mackie's run he chose to kill Mj off...which (Mj fans please don't hate me)
I found interesting at the time because it became a mystery whether she was alive or dead. The stalker plot line had been poor writing initially (would you like a lolipop?)....but he seemed like the best threat at the time for me during Mackies run....I know, sadly enough I own almost every issue of Mackie's run.

 

[Styleshift]

No, the big difference is that Mackie's writing was trash while BND is at least readable.

you know even though thats NOT how we are comparing these runs.
I gotta give it to you Bladey.
your right there....

BND is superior to the Mackie days in terms of writing. t:

ooh ooh another comparison.
Bob Gale is the new Mackie baby!
His dialogue absolutely HORRIBLE. probably more so than Mackie's.

But on the good side Mackie DID give us, what led up to that arc where norman is tricking Peter to terroize his friends as the goblin, THANK GOD they let Paul Jenkins handle the issue that dealt with it though.....PP:SM # 25 right?

 

[Miken Ayers]

I'm very tempted to go through your post history and see if ANY of your 304 posts so far have anything positive to say about things.

I'm sorry, but you really come off to me like the Comic Book Guy on The Simpsons who just seems to get off thinking that everything is the worst. thing. ever.

Come on, Sunshine! Put on a happy face!

Smileys are overused on this board. I've also been here longer than those 304 posts as Miken Ayers but that account got lost. No I wasn't banned I used to write reviews for the site and they told me that wasn't the case when I asked them, and I was welcome to make another account. Also show us how little life you have by going through my entire post history and picking me apart. I welcome it.

 

[Styleshift]

Another Comparison between the Mackie and BND run
is that they are BOTH dumb moves on top of dumb moves.

Mackie chose to kill off Mj after the lame reboot.

Where as The brain trust chose to characterize her as a **** after OMD.

 

[Venom 1988]

I don't see how MJ being with another man after 3+ months (whatever the time gap between OMD and BND is after Pete and MJ broke up) qualifies as being a ****.