Age of Ultron Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

[Just_Human]

I though Hulk tried to tap him gently on the shoulder, as if he meant "good job, teammate"

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I saw it more as a "I'm still better" sibling rivalry type moment

 

[jaqua99]

I saw it more as a "I'm still better" sibling rivalry type moment

Yeah. Banner is sort of, not in control. But sort of subconsciously guides it. Just like our subconscious mind controls our involuntary actions like blinking, and breathing. I see it at banner's deeper aspects of his personality that guide Hulk. Where Hulk is another personality in it's own right. It's STILL Banner.

I tend to look at it with an individual who has multiple personality disorder. It's still banner, but it's not Banner's personality, it's a separate personality. Hulk. The manner in which Hulk acts out, depends on Banner's state of mind, sort of like an episode. If Hulk is another personality, a sort of reflection on deeper part's of banners subconscious. If banner is accepting of it, and willing to have a desire to help, to let this other personality out, then his subconscious mind sort of will guiding it. It will still be Hulk's personality, the bit of anger, the rivalry with Thor, it's still the same Hulk, but depending on Banner's state, it let's us know how Hulk is.

That's why Hulk was sort of manageable at the end of Avengers. Banner WANTED to help. and he knew it was the right thing. He accepted his problem for what it is, and actually found a way to use it for good, and when the personality, Hulk took over, it was almost sort of subconsciously guided by the parts of Banner's mind that had good intentions. Banner doesn't remember much during the Hulk outs. Just like that of Multiple Personality Disorder.

To the ones saying that Hulk is Banner's mind/personality, I apologize, but I cannot disagree more, from a psychological perspective anyway.

 

[Herolee10]

Yeah. Banner is sort of, not in control. But sort of subconsciously guides it. Just like our subconscious mind controls our involuntary actions like blinking, and breathing. I see it at banner's deeper aspects of his personality that guide Hulk. Where Hulk is another personality in it's own right. It's STILL Banner.

I tend to look at it with an individual who has multiple personality disorder. It's still banner, but it's not Banner's personality, it's a separate personality. Hulk. The manner in which Hulk acts out, depends on Banner's state of mind, sort of like an episode. If Hulk is another personality, a sort of reflection on deeper part's of banners subconscious. If banner is accepting of it, and willing to have a desire to help, to let this other personality out, then his subconscious mind sort of will guiding it. It will still be Hulk's personality, the bit of anger, the rivalry with Thor, it's still the same Hulk, but depending on Banner's state, it let's us know how Hulk is.

That's why Hulk was sort of manageable at the end of Avengers. Banner WANTED to help. and he knew it was the right thing. He accepted his problem for what it is, and actually found a way to use it for good, and when the personality, Hulk took over, it was almost sort of subconsciously guided by the parts of Banner's mind that had good intentions. Banner doesn't remember much during the Hulk outs. Just like that of Multiple Personality Disorder.

To the ones saying that Hulk is Banner's mind/personality, I apologize, but I cannot disagree more, from a psychological perspective anyway.

I agree with this. I think there are a good amount of moments during the Battle in New York that display the things that you just mentioned.

For example, it was because of Banner's intentions on wanting to help that made the Hulk divert the huge Chitauri dragon from smashing into the building filled with civilians, but the way Hulk carried it out was more or less Hulk's way of doing so, which was by trashing the place as he ran in order to jump through the window (albeit without hurting anyone in the way of course).

Also, case in point...


I see this picture as being a reference of Banner's subconscious being present within the "Hulk" for a split moment...

before the "Hulk's" own personality shows again in another moment...

 

[Gu3ree]

There was nothing sudden about him being able to control the transformation. It's hinted at when TIH ends, which was the second movie in the MCU so it's been expected for quite a long time. When he turns back into Banner is a different issue and we haven't gotten any info on that either way, so no one can say how that works.

Well I think "That's my secret, Captain. I'm always angry" pretty much said it all.

 

[Tony Stark]

Yeah. Banner is sort of, not in control. But sort of subconsciously guides it. Just like our subconscious mind controls our involuntary actions like blinking, and breathing. I see it at banner's deeper aspects of his personality that guide Hulk. Where Hulk is another personality in it's own right. It's STILL Banner.

I tend to look at it with an individual who has multiple personality disorder. It's still banner, but it's not Banner's personality, it's a separate personality. Hulk. The manner in which Hulk acts out, depends on Banner's state of mind, sort of like an episode. If Hulk is another personality, a sort of reflection on deeper part's of banners subconscious. If banner is accepting of it, and willing to have a desire to help, to let this other personality out, then his subconscious mind sort of will guiding it. It will still be Hulk's personality, the bit of anger, the rivalry with Thor, it's still the same Hulk, but depending on Banner's state, it let's us know how Hulk is.

That's why Hulk was sort of manageable at the end of Avengers. Banner WANTED to help. and he knew it was the right thing. He accepted his problem for what it is, and actually found a way to use it for good, and when the personality, Hulk took over, it was almost sort of subconsciously guided by the parts of Banner's mind that had good intentions. Banner doesn't remember much during the Hulk outs. Just like that of Multiple Personality Disorder.

To the ones saying that Hulk is Banner's mind/personality, I apologize, but I cannot disagree more, from a psychological perspective anyway.

No it's not Banner's mind/personality, and they make it pretty clear when Banner refers to him as "the other guy". However there is a piece of the Hulk in Banner, and a piece of the Banner in Hulk. It's more of a symbiotic relationship than anything, that I thought was portrayed very well in Avengers EMH.

But the essence of the Hulk (the 616 Hulk) is that he is not a monster, but everyone thinks he is. One of the things that has unfortunately been left out of the movies altogether was Rick Jones. I thought Rick Jones was a key character in the comics that helps reconcile Banner within the Hulk. Jones was a guy that the Hulk knew to trust implicitly.

I hate the Ultimate Hulk were Banner has been relegated to a insane mad scientist, and the Hulk is most definitely a monster, who occasionally can direct his destructive force to help, but he is trusted by no one (and neither is Banner).

 

[Huddsy]

Yeah. Banner is sort of, not in control. But sort of subconsciously guides it. Just like our subconscious mind controls our involuntary actions like blinking, and breathing. I see it at banner's deeper aspects of his personality that guide Hulk. Where Hulk is another personality in it's own right. It's STILL Banner.

I tend to look at it with an individual who has multiple personality disorder. It's still banner, but it's not Banner's personality, it's a separate personality. Hulk. The manner in which Hulk acts out, depends on Banner's state of mind, sort of like an episode. If Hulk is another personality, a sort of reflection on deeper part's of banners subconscious. If banner is accepting of it, and willing to have a desire to help, to let this other personality out, then his subconscious mind sort of will guiding it. It will still be Hulk's personality, the bit of anger, the rivalry with Thor, it's still the same Hulk, but depending on Banner's state, it let's us know how Hulk is.

That's why Hulk was sort of manageable at the end of Avengers. Banner WANTED to help. and he knew it was the right thing. He accepted his problem for what it is, and actually found a way to use it for good, and when the personality, Hulk took over, it was almost sort of subconsciously guided by the parts of Banner's mind that had good intentions. Banner doesn't remember much during the Hulk outs. Just like that of Multiple Personality Disorder.

To the ones saying that Hulk is Banner's mind/personality, I apologize, but I cannot disagree more, from a psychological perspective anyway.

IMO, the Hulk is Banner, but more or less with the courage to do things a normal Banner wouldn't. We all have things we dream of doing or jokingly would do, but hold yourself back from.

You see a girl having her purse stolen, on the inside many of us would yell "stop him!" to ourselves, but for fear, or logic of being too far away... don't. Same with Banner. But the Hulk doesn't hold back.

With Thor, it's a joking sibling haha I'm better moment, but Banner would never have the balls to do so. The Hulk does, because it brings those suppressed thoughts to the foreground.

 

[jaqua99]

No it's not Banner's mind/personality, and they make it pretty clear when Banner refers to him as "the other guy". However there is a piece of the Hulk in Banner, and a piece of the Banner in Hulk. It's more of a symbiotic relationship than anything, that I thought was portrayed very well in Avengers EMH.

But the essence of the Hulk (the 616 Hulk) is that he is not a monster, but everyone thinks he is. One of the things that has unfortunately been left out of the movies altogether was Rick Jones. I thought Rick Jones was a key character in the comics that helps reconcile Banner within the Hulk. Jones was a guy that the Hulk knew to trust implicitly.

I hate the Ultimate Hulk were Banner has been relegated to a insane mad scientist, and the Hulk is most definitely a monster, who occasionally can direct his destructive force to help, but he is trusted by no one (and neither is Banner).

Wait, you DO understand that we aren't disagreeing, right? Cause this is essentially what I was saying

 

[Hypestyle]

Hulk is a hero. Period.

 

[Spider-Vader]

I think you're seeing the wrong reaction to Hulk reacting to Cap's commands; to me it seemed like he was amped up & ready for action, not that he wanted to start fighting Cap.

I really hope we don't see more savage, monster Hulk. I want to see a Hulk who can talk a bit more & is just an angry hero.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Amadeus cho says hulk is a hero and hes like the 8th smartest person in the MU.

 

[Human Torch]

Hulk is a hero. Period.

Exactly.Close thread.

 

[Lantern Venom]

That is completely the opposite of the Hulk in the comics. While there has always been the Jekyll/Hyde thing going on, the Hulk has always been a Hero.

This isn't true. In his 2nd issue, Terror of the Toad Men, Hulk gains control of their technology with the intention of attacking Earth. This was later attributed to the Joe Fixit personality (despite the fact that Hulk was no longer gray) and the eventual formation of the Savage personality was written more as a sympathetic anti-hero.

 

[metaphysician]

Amadeus cho says hulk is a hero and hes like the 8th smartest person in the MU.

Ugh, I hate that little brat. Second worst thing to come out of the whole WWH mess, after the magical precognitive rage.

 

[DrCosmic]

The Hulk in the Helicarrier is a rage monster in the sense that he's entirely controlled by his rage. The Hulk in NYC is angry but still a hero who's actions are affected by doing what's good (saving people, attacking the bad guys). Hulk becoming a hero is the point of Banner's arc, as stated by Whedon.

A. Attacking Thor is not like attacking an innocent human since Thor had already taken Hulk's best punch and smiled. Hulk punching Thor is more an action of friendly rivalry.

B. There's always been some crossover between Banner and Hulk but that's to a much larger degree now. Before it was Banner's longtime love interest that caused Hulk to care, now he works together with people Banner doesn't even have that much of a relationship with (yet). Banner has hardly met Thor, and Hulk has fought him, yet he cooperates with Thor to take down a leviathan and a bunch of soldiers. That's completely inconceivable for the Hulk in TIH.

C. If Hulk hasn't grown, how can he actively cooperate with other people in a fight? Him ripping off that metal chunk and lodging it in the leviathan so Thor can kill it is operating at a very different thought level than before.

D. In what way is being a weapon and a hero mutually exclusive? Thor is also only used as a weapon in that fight. Thor and Hulk are the two most powerful so they are put on destroying things. Hulk isn't particularly bright so you can't really give him any complicated orders but he's certainly a hero.

A) Anger gets a violent reaction, that's my point, not that the end result will always be the same. Plus, that was mostly to smash this 'Banner is in control of Hulk' thing.

B) This is conjecture. Nothing in TIH is contradicted.

C) This is a good point, it's likely Hulk has grown more intelligent. His anger reactions don't seem to have changed though.

D) Thor is not only used as a weapon, Thor personally entreats Loki, in fact. Thor makes decisions, he doesn't just react. That's the difference between a hero and a weapon. A weapon is pointed and does what it's designed to do, regardless of who or what it's pointed at. A hero acts based on principles, whatever they may be. Rage is not a principle, but that's what Hulk acts on.

Hulk responds to an order, which is a completely different way to react for him. Him smiling is also new and that's a perfect evidence that he's not just rage anymore.

Hulk has never been anger that leads to ignoring things, he's been rage that destroys things or runs away from them.

As for Thor being a Betty, and not sharing anything more with Banner, that makes no sense. Banner has barely met Thor and certainly does not know him. A good part of the conversations we've seen with the two in the same room were also pretty heated, due to Loki's influence. Banner knows that these are the ones that can save Earth though, so Hulk also gets that now since there's more crossover thoughts. That's why he cooperates with the guy he previously tried to kill.

One pretty clear point with the staff is that Hulk actively tries to kill Avengers, despite them not having done anything threatening to him. Even in TIH he doesn't attack people like that despite being the uncontrolled rage monster, he attacks people that tried to hurt him or Banner.

Just because he's a hero now doesn't turn him into Captain America. He's still a loose cannon with rage and limited intellectual capacity but a hero nonetheless.

Hulk takes directions from Betty, that's not new. He's never been just rage, rage is simply his main motivation and it trumps everything else instantly. Now him smiling is new, which makes sense, because no one has ever told him to unleash his rage before.

The idea that he only attacks people that tried to hurt him or Banner is simply untrue, or else Hulk wouldn't be dangerous except to people trying to kill him. Being stuck in a submarine or helicarrier is not an issue, because unless someone tries to hurt him, he's totally safe.

Good point on Banner and Thor though, same with Hawkeye, Banner's relationship with Hulk has changed, for Hulk to take into account such high level concepts in selecting "Betty's."

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Ugh, I hate that little brat. Second worst thing to come out of the whole WWH mess, after the magical precognitive rage.

Still direct evidence/testimony toward the fact that Hulk - not Banner - is the hero. Plus when the two of them were split, Hulk was much less of an a-hole than Banner.

If we are going by the movies, i suppose Norton's bland "decent everyman" performance suggests Banner is the hero. Though by the end of the film its clear Hulk has heroic tendencies as well. Avengers Hulk is also inconclusive, though this time both sides of the characters are shown - Banner is a good guy, but with a dark sense of humor. Hulk is too out of control to make ethical decisions but at the end hes clearly a (messy) force for good.

 

[Mjölnir]

A) Anger gets a violent reaction, that's my point, not that the end result will always be the same. Plus, that was mostly to smash this 'Banner is in control of Hulk' thing.

B) This is conjecture. Nothing in TIH is contradicted.

C) This is a good point, it's likely Hulk has grown more intelligent. His anger reactions don't seem to have changed though.

D) Thor is not only used as a weapon, Thor personally entreats Loki, in fact. Thor makes decisions, he doesn't just react. That's the difference between a hero and a weapon. A weapon is pointed and does what it's designed to do, regardless of who or what it's pointed at. A hero acts based on principles, whatever they may be. Rage is not a principle, but that's what Hulk acts on.



Hulk takes directions from Betty, that's not new. He's never been just rage, rage is simply his main motivation and it trumps everything else instantly. Now him smiling is new, which makes sense, because no one has ever told him to unleash his rage before.

The idea that he only attacks people that tried to hurt him or Banner is simply untrue, or else Hulk wouldn't be dangerous except to people trying to kill him. Being stuck in a submarine or helicarrier is not an issue, because unless someone tries to hurt him, he's totally safe.

Good point on Banner and Thor though, same with Hawkeye, Banner's relationship with Hulk has changed, for Hulk to take into account such high level concepts in selecting "Betty's."

A. When I've spoken about control I mean that he's in control of the transformation. This is obviously not Dr Hulk. As for violence, there's a lot more than anger that causes violent actions. Friends are sometimes violent with each other for fun, professional fighters don't fight because they dislike their opponent, etc.

B. Weird comment since my C-comment is about the same thing and you agreed to that.

C. With intelligence he automatically is less controlled by rage. Rage and rational behavior are two different things and he's placed a little more towards the latter than before now.

D. Thor's function in the group is that of a weapon. His talk with Loki was a decision on his own, he doesn't join the others until after that. The notion that Hulk would attack anything if Cap told him to is utterly ridiculous. We see him save people so why would he attack innocents if Cap told him to? (he would never say that but that's besides the point)

But Betty had a very clear connection to his deepest emotions. Cap is someone that even Banner has barely met and still he gets through to Hulk without any issues whatsoever.

Hulk isn't a danger to people in a submarine or in the Helicarrier because he attacks them specifically but because he'd take his anger out on what's constraining him, i.e. the vessel. That's of course if you get him in an uncontrollable rage state. There's no reason to think that the voluntarily transformed Hulk would do anything like that on purpose. He might wreck things because he's reckless and dumb, but that's something different.

I think this shows that Hulk is clearly a hero because he can now separate good guys, and innocents, from bad guys. He fights alongside the good guys, he protects the innocent, and he smashes the bad guys. That's of course nailed down by him showing that he knows exactly what Loki, a god, which means he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[CoherentChaos]

^ Pretty much. A Hulk that has emerged because Banner let him will not indiscriminately attack whatever's in sight just on the basis of it being something that's unfortunate enough to be in sight. Is he a volatile hero, and perhaps not best suited to solve things like hostage situations and cats in trees? Absolutely. But he's still a hero nonetheless. This isn't Ultimates Hulk we're talking about.

Quite frankly, I think MCU's Hulk is really primed now for becoming his own character that can be at odds with Bruce's part of the psyche. Is that what MS is going to do? Only time will tell, but it's what I want to see.

Hopefully he can have some more positive interactions, and is given opportunities to voice his opinion ("Hulk think plan is stupid." "Why not just smash?", just for some hypothetical situations). And I think it's the best direction for him to go. He's a big brutish creature, but he's capable of rational thought and decisions.

Does this make him a classy and sophisticated? Far from it. Dr Cosmic, please, none of this means that we can no longer have a vicious, rampaging Hulk. It just means that he'd be saving such brutality for targets deserving of it. Last thing I want to see on screen is this notion of him unleashing his anger on unsuspecting civilians. Again, this isn't Ultimates.

Also, by making it so Hulk isn't just mindless rage, then you can have a distinction that allows for more dramatic moments. Like how the new Hulk model has flab and realistic muscle reaction, you can tell when he's really exerting himself because then his muscles pop and give us the definition that TIH's model had 24/7; well you can then tell when Hulk's just reacting to something because Banner got angry, or when Hulk himself is personally infuriated by something, because Banner level of angry just makes him eager to smash when he emerges. Hulk level of angry is near mindless and is where he needs to smash. And when the latter happens, then you know there's going to be trouble.