Comics I fear for the current status of Superman.

[Spike_x1]

Flying through suns is out of the friggin question! (Honestly people, that's just ******ed. Even IF he could survive the heat, the idea that his body could withstand that kind of gravity is just plain dumb. Even moreso when you consider that it was a red sun!) And for the love of god, the Omega Beams should never EVER bounce of his chest.

I said the exact same thing in the DC Comics forum a while ago.

I mean, if he can survive the gravity and heat of a sun (red, no less, meaning he's already being depowered), then we know that nothing short of some major cosmic threat can hurt him.

Something that I want is for somebody like the Toyman or Bloodsport to launch a missile at Superman, and for Superman to not necessarily go "ah f**k!" as if he's scared in any way, but I want him to at least raise his hands and try to shield himself somewhat.

I think the ideal power level I want Superman at is what he was in the 80's, in Superman #9, where he was confronted with a forty megaton thermo-nuclear bomb, and he was knocked-the-hell-out by it, but wasn't killed. When he woke up, he was just kind of like, "Ow. That friggin' hurt," and it took him a little while to compose himself.

Right now, DC is trying to balance those two levels of power (the overthetop level of red sun diving with Superboy Prime, and the lower level of being taken aback by Earth 2 Superman hitting him with a simple car), but the balancing act really can't be kept up for too much longer, IMHO. It's just too wide of a margin between the two, even for a comic book.

 

[The Question]

Truth be told, the nuke arguement has always bothered me. I just can't decide about it. Way I see it, if he is hit by a nuke, then it should depend where. If he's standing at ground zero, I think it should kill him. If he's not at the dead center of the explosion but a bit away from it, say a mile or so, it wouldn't kill him but still severely **** him up like in Dark Knight Returns.

And in any event, he should not be able to withstand the force of over one million nuclear explosions and only be really sore and tired because of it.

 

[Spike_x1]

Yeah, I get what you mean. With the bomb that I cited above, he was right next to it at the time of its detonation (carrying it into space, in fact), so I'm perfectly fine with him being knocked out by it. And ontop of being nuked, Superman even survived the heat of reentry, and the force of crashing into the Earth, unconscious no less.

So he was still pretty damn tough in those days. Just not 'cosmic-level-red-sun-diving' tough.

 

[The Question]

I get that. It's primairily the radiation I'm worried about. I know Superman's cells regenerate very fast, which is apart of his invulnerability, but such massive amounts of radiation would **** up anyone's cellular structure, including Superman's. Combined with a heat that is several times that of the sun and a fore that can flatten cities, Superman surviving a nuclear explosion at ground zero just bothers me a bit.

 

[Thespiralgoeson]

While I agree with most of what you said, I have a few points to make.


1) The reason people want Darkseid back at pre-crisis power levels isn't because they want him to be able to face Superman. It's because they don't want him to face Superman. Darkseid as a Superman villain is an insult to the character. Even pre-crisis, Darkseid greatly dwarfed Superman in terms of power, and was once able to take on the entire Legion of Superheroes, including two 18 year old Kryptonians, and fight them to a standstill. Darkseid should be a threat to the entire DCU, not just Superman.

Oh I agree completely. All I'm saying is that I don't want the Omega Beams to bounce of Superman's chest.

2) With Batman, I do think Batman should be considered less capable than Supes in the areas where Supes excells Batman can't fight Mongul or save towns from natural disasters or anything like that. However, I do think they should at least be intelectual equals, if not Batman being Superman's superior.

Again, I agree. When I say the two should be equals, I certainly don't mean in terms of how powerful they are. I just mean that Bats and Supes should see eachother as equals. Batman knows what Superman is capable of. He knows he could never under any circumstances hope to be as powerful as Supes. However, he also knows Superman better than anyone else, including his weaknesses, mental as well as physical. Supes knows that if push comes to shove, and the two were forces into combat, Batman can even the odds. In fact, Superman not only knows this, but he counts on it. If his mind is being controlled, who does he count on above all others to take him down? Wonder Woman? Green Lantern? Martian Manhunter? Nope... Batman. All Batman needs is prep-time. Batman can hold his own against pretty much anyone provided he has the time to study them and prepare appropriately. See JLA: Tower of Babel. R'as Al Ghul took down the entire Justice League using fail-safes that he had stolen straight from Bats. Hell, Batman was the one who created Brother Eye.

But then again, I honestly think Batman has to kept in check as well as Superman. Honestly, I don't like it when Batman gets too involved in these apocalyptic, end-of-the-universe scenarios. I don't mind it every now and then, because he's right at the heart of the JL, but Batman is a detective and a crime fighter. He's the Dark Knight, not Buzz Lightyear. If I in charge of the DC continuity, Batman would basically be a free-lance member of the Justice League; he rarely has any involvement with them, pretty much just keeping to himself and taking care of Gotham, but the league knows he has a valuble skillset and sometimes ask him to come in as a consultant of sorts. You could say he's a seasonal member of the league, with Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern and rest being lifers.

 

[The Question]

In fact, Superman not only knows this, but he counts on it. If his mind is being controlled, who does he count on above all others to take him down? Wonder Woman? Green Lantern? Martian Manhunter? Nope... Batman. All Batman needs is prep-time. Batman can hold his own against pretty much anyone provided he has the time to study them and prepare appropriately. See JLA: Tower of Babel. R'as Al Ghul took down the entire Justice League using fail-safes that he had stolen straight from Bats. Hell, Batman was the one who created Brother Eye.

Okay, there I call bull****. Sorry, but Batman can't beat anyone as long as he has time to prepare. He's only human. He has limitations, and even his impressive resources are finite. In Tower of Babel, Ra's needed an army of highly trained terrorists to carry out Batman's plans, and even then they didn't defeat the League, simply cripple them temporarily. If Superman went Rogue, he'd still be able to wipe the floor with Bruce. Mainly because he's too damned fast for Bruce to react. If Superman's smart, he'd count on Diana or J'onn to take him down if something happened more than Bruce. And if Bruce's smart, his plan to take down Clark would involve calling Diana or J'onn.

 

[Thespiralgoeson]

Okay, there I call bull****. Sorry, but Batman can't beat anyone as long as he has time to prepare. He's only human. He has limitations, and even his impressive resources are finite. In Tower of Babel, Ra's needed an army of highly trained terrorists to carry out Batman's plans, and even then they didn't defeat the League, simply cripple them temporarily. If Superman went Rogue, he'd still be able to wipe the floor with Bruce. Mainly because he's too damned fast for Bruce to react.

*sigh* Whatever man. If Lex Luthor is a worthy adversary to Superman, then so is Bruce Wayne. Superman's too fast for Batman? So is the Flash. But it doesn't matter. He's the goddamn Batman. He finds a way. And R'as only needed an army of terrorists to take down the JLA all at once. You think Batman couldn't take down any one of them individually? I beg to differ. When I said all Batman needs is prep-time and he can take on anyone, that wasn't limited to physical combat. But now that you mention it, Batman would realistically stand a much better chance against Superman than most of the other League Members. The other league members don't have this green rock that kills them just by being near it. That's one of the problems I've always had with Kryptonite, but that's just the way it was written. I'm not saying Batman should be able to take on someone like Doomsday, Mongul, or Darkseid but he CAN engage Superman.

If Superman's smart, he'd count on Diana or J'onn to take him down if something happened more than Bruce. And if Bruce's smart, his plan to take down Clark would involve calling Diana or J'onn.

Yeah, but that's just not the way it is. If Batman were smart he wouldn't have a friggin child as his crime-fighting partner, but he does. If Superman were smart, he'd probably use something besides a pair of glasses to disguise himself, but he doesn't. Batman and Superman are the two most beloved, iconic figures in all of comicdom. They're the World's Finest. If Superman does have an equal, it's not Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter, or anyone else. It's Batman. The fact is Superman entrusted the ring to Batman, and nobody else.

 

[The Question]

*sigh* Whatever man. If Lex Luthor is a worthy adversary to Superman, then so is Bruce Wayne.

Lex rarely poses a major physical threat to Superman himself. Superman simply tries to take down Luthor's plans with varrying degrees of success, rarely finding any proof that would link them to Luthor. That's a completely different kind of warfare than how Bruce would be forced to take Clark down if something happned.

Superman's too fast for Batman? So is the Flash. But it doesn't matter. He's the goddamn Batman. He finds a way.

That's a terrible arguement. And why bring up The Flash? When has Bruce ever been able to defeat The Flash? For that matter, when has he ever tried?

And R'as only needed an army of terrorists to take down the JLA all at once. You think Batman couldn't take down any one of them individually? I beg to differ.

He was still sending twelve to fifty guys after each member of th League. Last time a checked, Bruce didn't have twelve to fifty guys fighting on his behalf.

When I said all Batman needs is prep-time and he can take on anyone, that wasn't limited to physical combat. But now that you mention it, Batman would realistically stand a much better chance against Superman than most of the other League Members. The other league members don't have this green rock that kills them just by being near it. That's one of the problems I've always had with Kryptonite, but that's just the way it was written. I'm not saying Batman should be able to take on someone like Doomsday, Mongul, or Darkseid but he CAN engage Superman.

Even with the Kryptonite, Bruce would be hard pressed to take Clark down. Clark's way too damn fast for Bruce to react in time to use it properly. A smart plan would simply be for Bruce to give Diana or J'onn the Kryptonite ring and have them fight Clark.

Yeah, but that's just not the way it is. If Batman were smart he wouldn't have a friggin child as his crime-fighting partner, but he does.

That doesn't make Batman uninteligent. That just makes him kind of crazy. Which he is.

If Superman were smart, he'd probably use something besides a pair of glasses to disguise himself, but he doesn't. Batman and Superman are the two most beloved, iconic figures in all of comicdom. They're the World's Finest. If Superman does have an equal, it's not Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter, or anyone else. It's Batman.

That is also a terrible arguement. Yes, Superman and Batman are highly popular. But that doesn't mean Bruce should be able to beat Clark in a fight.

The fact is Superman entrusted the ring to Batman, and nobody else.

Because Bruce could come up with a very good plan to take Clark down. But I would pray to god that the plan involves calling Diana or J'onn for help.

 

[Spike_x1]

Superman's too fast for Batman? So is the Flash. But it doesn't matter. He's the goddamn Batman. He finds a way.

HAHAHAHA!!

That is so going in my sig. down

 

[Thespiralgoeson]

Lex rarely poses a major physical threat to Superman himself. Superman simply tries to take down Luthor's plans with varrying degrees of success, rarely finding any proof that would link them to Luthor. That's a completely different kind of warfare than how Bruce would be forced to take Clark down if something happned.

I clearly said above "When I said all Batman needs is prep-time and he can take on anyone, that wasn't limited to physical combat."

That's a terrible arguement. And why bring up The Flash? When has Bruce ever been able to defeat The Flash? For that matter, when has he ever tried?

I bring up the flash because you said the main reason Bats couldn't take down supes is because he's too fast. By that logic Bruce couldn't take down the Flash either. I beg to differ. Don't take it too seriously. It was a joke, really. I might as well have said "Superman's too fast for Batman? Well I had cottage cheese for dinner."

He was still sending twelve to fifty guys after each member of th League. Last time a checked, Bruce didn't have twelve to fifty guys fighting on his behalf.

Dude, you do realize Batman designed those fail-safe for HIMSELF to use on the JLA. They were designed for one man, the friggin BATMAN. Besides, take Prometheus for example. He immoblized the entire JLA, including Batman, and he did so all by himself. Batman would do so in similar fashion.

Even with the Kryptonite, Bruce would be hard pressed to take Clark down. Clark's way too damn fast for Bruce to react in time to use it properly.

Well by that logic then a character like Metallo wouldn't be able to make Superman break a sweat.

In most interpretations I've seen, Kryptonite pretty much renders all of Clark's powers null, superspeed included. All he has to do is get close enough. But even so, if your only argument for Bruce not being able to take on Supes using kryptonite is that Supes is "way too damn fast" then you really don't have much of an imagination.

In DKR, a 55 year old Bruce defeated Clark in combat using a powered suit, some tank missiles, and a piece of sythetic kryptonite. Yeah, he had some help from Robin and a one-armed Green Arrow, but they did nothing he couldn't have done himself. He took down supes, and I found it believable. That's enough for me.

"You're beginning to get the idea, Clark. This... is the beginning of the end, for both of us... We could have changed the world... Now look at us... I've become a political liability, and you.... you're a joke. I want you to remember, Clark... in all the years to come... in your most private moments.. I want you to remember my hant at your throat... the one man who beat you..."

Classic. One of my favorite moments in comic history.

Now I'm not saying DKR is the end all and be all, but I certainly found it believable enough. There was never a moment I was reading and thought to myself "This is stupid. Superman could just use his superspeed. He's tood damn fast for Batman!"

That doesn't make Batman uninteligent. That just makes him kind of crazy. Which he is.

That's subjective. Personally I think it's not only crazy, but just a little stupid.

That is also a terrible arguement. Yes, Superman and Batman are highly popular. But that doesn't mean Bruce should be able to beat Clark in a fight.

Oh but I think it does. If the two heros weren't so linked together and identified with eachother then I might agree. Then I would be fine with Batman being a character like what Wolverine is to Marvel. Sure, Wolverine is close to the bottom of the food chain in the marvel universe in terms of power. No way could he stand a chance against a character like Juggernaught or dozens of others. But he doesn't need to because he's a better character anyway. Batman is different, at least in regards to Superman.

Batman and Superman aren't just highly popular. They're also almost universally identified with each other. That's why they've been teamed up time and time again moreso than any other two heros over the past 60 years. That's why on several occassions WB has seriously considered green-lighting a Batman/Superman movie. Who are the world's finest? Is it Superman and Wonder Woman? Is it Superman and Flash? Is it Superman and Marian ManHunter? Is it Superman and Green Lantern? Is it Superman and Hawkman? Nope... It's Superman and Batman. They've got to be on a level playing field, otherwise it's just silly teaming them together and calling them the world's finest. Otherwise, Batman's just Superman's sidekick. I'm not saying he needs to be able to take on Darkseid, or mongul. But he DOES need be able to engage Superman. If not, then Batman really should never ever be involved with the Justice League IMO, and certainly not teamed up individually with Clark.

Because Bruce could come up with a very good plan to take Clark down. But I would pray to god that the plan involves calling Diana or J'onn for help.

It could, but why the hell should it have to? Maybe he designs synthetic Red Kryptonite that paralyzes supes completely... oh wait, he already did that... Well maybe he builds this satellite that's designed to.... oh wait, he already did that too... My point is, he's the goddamn Batman. It's not hard at all to imagine a way Batman could even the odds with a character like Superman. Hell, he's done before more than once. Who knows, maybe he gets his hands on a green lantern power ring... maybe commandeers some alien technology that teleports them both to a planet with a red sun... Use your imagination.

But really, I'm not disagreeing with you. If Batman were to take down Superman, his plan almost certainly would involve other Superheros. I imagine it would be similar to the plan he himself was a victim of at Bane's hands. Bane unleashed all the inmates of Arkham and wore Batman out completely, so when they finally fought face-to-face, Bats had nothing left in the tank. Batman probably would devise a plan involving some other heros softening Supes up first, or even taking him down completely. I'm just saying that it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.

 

[The Question]

I clearly said above "When I said all Batman needs is prep-time and he can take on anyone, that wasn't limited to physical combat."

So Batman should start a major criminal organization that Superman would have no means of bringing down entirely on his own?

Dude, you do realize Batman designed those fail-safe for HIMSELF to use on the JLA. They were designed for one man, the friggin BATMAN.

So? If it took a dozen guys to carry out each plan, I doubt Bruce could do it on his own.

Besides, take Prometheus for example. He immoblized the entire JLA, including Batman, and he did so all by himself. Batman would do so in similar fashion.

Prometheus threatened to kill over 100 innocent people if the League didn't do as he said.

Well by that logic then a character like Metallo wouldn't be able to make Superman break a sweat.

Metally also has a vast amount of superhuman speed and strength on his side.

In most interpretations I've seen, Kryptonite pretty much renders all of Clark's powers null, superspeed included. All he has to do is get close enough. But even so, if your only argument for Bruce not being able to take on Supes using kryptonite is that Supes is "way too damn fast" then you really don't have much of an imagination.

Kryptonite doesn't take away his powers. It just makes him feel like absolute **** and slowly kills him.

In DKR, a 55 year old Bruce defeated Clark in combat using a powered suit, some tank missiles, and a piece of sythetic kryptonite. Yeah, he had some help from Robin and a one-armed Green Arrow, but they did nothing he couldn't have done himself. He took down supes, and I found it believable. That's enough for me.

He couldn't have done those things himself because it would have requird him to be in multiple places at once. And yes, if he were using a super suit of sorts, then a fight between the two would make sense. My problem is how he would obtain the suit, other than him magically pulling it out of his ass like the writers enjoy having him do.

That's subjective. Personally I think it's not only crazy, but just a little stupid.

Oh, it's really more crazy. Bruce is still highly inteligent.

Oh but I think it does. If the two heros weren't so linked together and identified with eachother then I might agree. Then I would be fine with Batman being a character like what Wolverine is to Marvel. Sure, Wolverine is close to the bottom of the food chain in the marvel universe in terms of power. No way could he stand a chance against a character like Juggernaught or dozens of others. But he doesn't need to because he's a better character anyway. Batman is different, at least in regards to Superman.

Batman and Superman aren't just highly popular. They're also almost universally identified with each other. That's why they've been teamed up time and time again moreso than any other two heros over the past 60 years. That's why on several occassions WB has seriously considered green-lighting a Batman/Superman movie. Who are the world's finest? Is it Superman and Wonder Woman? Is it Superman and Flash? Is it Superman and Marian ManHunter? Is it Superman and Green Lantern? Is it Superman and Hawkman? Nope... It's Superman and Batman. They've got to be on a level playing field, otherwise it's just silly teaming them together and calling them the world's finest. Otherwise, Batman's just Superman's sidekick. I'm not saying he needs to be able to take on Darkseid, or mongul. But he DOES need be able to engage Superman. If not, then Batman really should never ever be involved with the Justice League IMO, and certainly not teamed up individually with Clark.

That's not a reason within the continuity for Bruce to be able to beat Clark. That's just Batman and Superman being identified as a team, which stems pretty much entirely from them being DC's two most popular.

It could, but why the hell should it have to?

Because it's the smart thing to do.

Maybe he designs synthetic Red Kryptonite that paralyzes supes completely... oh wait, he already did that... Well maybe he builds this satellite that's designed to.... oh wait, he already did that too... My point is, he's the goddamn Batman.

That's not an excuse. That's saying his namke and putting "the goddamn" on front of it.

It's not hard at all to imagine a way Batman could even the odds with a character like Superman. Hell, he's done before more than once. Who knows, maybe he gets his hands on a green lantern power ring... maybe commandeers some alien technology that teleports them both to a planet with a red sun... Use your imagination.

If Batman had access to a GL ring or highly advanced teleportation technology, then him having a hard time with The Joker makes no sense whatsoever.

But really, I'm not disagreeing with you. If Batman were to take down Superman, his plan almost certainly would involve other Superheros. I imagine it would be similar to the plan he himself was a victim of at Bane's hands. Bane unleashed all the inmates of Arkham and wore Batman out completely, so when they finally fought face-to-face, Bats had nothing left in the tank. Batman probably would devise a plan involving some other heros softening Supes up first, or even taking him down completely. I'm just saying that it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.

It really should, though.

 

[DavidTyler]

Herein lies the problem, gang. When Superman was created there weren't a lot of superhero characters out there. It was easy for him to be the most powerful character in comics without being much more than a tuned up human. He could hold back trains with a bit of a struggle and lift cars over his head. Then came the onslaught - starting w/Captain Marvel. Well, DC got Marvel axxed and that kept Supes the strongest and the smartest. Soon, however, the assault on Superman's uniqueness was ramped up. There were long underwear characters everywhere who possessed similar powers. DC starting ramping up Superman to get him above the pack. It got to the point where he could move the Earth. After a character does that, how do you write him as having a believable problem with terrestrial types. And he was outsmarting Luthor.

Is it any wonder that Superman, our premeire hero in tights, became one of DC's worst selling main titles? Marvel was killing DC. The solution was simple. Go back and see what made the character work initially. They did it with a lot of their characters - including Batman.

Byrne didn't so much power the character down as he made an honest attempt to return him to the original concept - a tuned up human and not a god. With the exception of 'The Death of Superman', sales of his books were at some of their highest levels. Superman was interesting again.

So now we have fans here who want to return to the power level that makes it imperative that he fight a Mongul every issue?

Let me tell you, if it goes that way, I won't be buying and I'm guessing that a lot of other readers will lose interest quickly.

 

[KaptainKrypton]

Personally, I don't mind which level they choose, but they should gear him towards that end of the spectrum and keep him there (either urban or nearly cosmic). Having him be an everyday, urban superhero is retarted if he's able to lift continents, if you ask me. Him saving people or stopping bank robbers in those instances every issue is like watching me take out my Monday trash. Otherwise, keep his power levels a little more reserved and make him work for his money in his day to day meanderings. This is definitely a case of not being able to have your cake and eat it, too. Although, after reading Alan Moore's run on Supreme, I wouldn't mind if they did some utterly fantastic stuff with his characterization/abilities and amped it up. Although if it was executed poorly, it would taste like a turd filet.

 

[The Question]

(embarrased for not noticing the response)


I completely agree. Both DC abd Marvel have a tendancy to want to have it both ways, when really only one works. I would love to see Superman at planet moving levels if his stories were adjusted to acomidate. He can't be able to rearange solar systems and still simply be fighting killer Lexcorp robots on Earth.

 

[Jacobhiggins]

Well in reality, Superman was the first and everybody in the back of there mind knows Superman is really the Ultimate Superhero so I think they should gear him towards very godly and very powerful and keep him there.

How would you continue writing comics with someone so powerful though, that's the question that's been around for a long time.

Superman might not be the coolest or the most controversial Super Hero, but he was the first and I think should be maybe the most powerful or at the very least, one of the most powerful forces in the DC Universe.

I personally would have him as a rare Superhero, someone who is called when there is no other solution or the circumstances are very dire. When all the other heroes have failed or need help, thats when Superman enters the scene. Have him watching over earth and let him make an appereance every 3 to 4 years when the Universe or Earth is in danger. That would be cool, but that's not gonna happend.

 

[The Question]

Well in reality, Superman was the first and everybody in the back of there mind knows Superman is really the Ultimate Superhero so I think they should gear him towards very godly and very powerful and keep him there.

How would you continue writing comics with someone so powerful though, that's the question that's been around for a long time.

Superman might not be the coolest or the most controversial Super Hero, but he was the first and I think should be maybe the most powerful or at the very least, one of the most powerful forces in the DC Universe.

I personally would have him as a rare Superhero, someone who is called when there is no other solution or the circumstances are very dire. When all the other heroes have failed or need help, thats when Superman enters the scene. Have him watching over earth and let him make an appereance every 3 to 4 years when the Universe or Earth is in danger. That would be cool, but that's not gonna happend.

The thing is, he doesn't have to be the most powerful to be the ultimate super hero. He simply has to serve as an inspiration to others. He can still have people who are equal to him in power and who are more powerful than he is.

 

[true316]

Herein lies the problem, gang. When Superman was created there weren't a lot of superhero characters out there. It was easy for him to be the most powerful character in comics without being much more than a tuned up human. He could hold back trains with a bit of a struggle and lift cars over his head. Then came the onslaught - starting w/Captain Marvel. Well, DC got Marvel axxed and that kept Supes the strongest and the smartest. Soon, however, the assault on Superman's uniqueness was ramped up. There were long underwear characters everywhere who possessed similar powers. DC starting ramping up Superman to get him above the pack. It got to the point where he could move the Earth. After a character does that, how do you write him as having a believable problem with terrestrial types. And he was outsmarting Luthor.

Is it any wonder that Superman, our premeire hero in tights, became one of DC's worst selling main titles? Marvel was killing DC. The solution was simple. Go back and see what made the character work initially. They did it with a lot of their characters - including Batman.

Byrne didn't so much power the character down as he made an honest attempt to return him to the original concept - a tuned up human and not a god. With the exception of 'The Death of Superman', sales of his books were at some of their highest levels. Superman was interesting again.

So now we have fans here who want to return to the power level that makes it imperative that he fight a Mongul every issue?

Let me tell you, if it goes that way, I won't be buying and I'm guessing that a lot of other readers will lose interest quickly.

This is an interesting discussion going on in here!

David, I agree with a lot of what you wrote but I disagree with this part that I highlighted. I don't think Bryne returned to the original concept at all (in fact I think he went far from it).

I think its easy for us to look back at Superman's power levels in those early issues of Action Comics and marvel at how un-powerful he is. But to the people back then I don't think that was the case. Remember that Superman was initially rejected by comics publishers because they thought he was too powerful. Back then seeing a character lifting a car over his head and bounce bullets off his chest was a big deal. I know you're into the comics a lot and I was wondering if you've gotten to read those early issues? If you haven't I suggest you check them out because they are really fun. I think he was a hero tailor made for a Depression-era audience. I think a lot of people probably felt like they were being kicked around and here was this character that NO ONE could kick around. For example: Superman Chronicles Volume One (it collects Action Comics #1-13, Superman #1, and NYWF #1). I don't recall one panel where Superman was in any danger! Contrast that with Bryne's Man of Steel series. Early on in the series Superman encounters Bizarro who is his physical equal. We see Superman actually worried about how what the outcome would be. In the 30's the format was simple. Superman would find out about some innocent person being wronged and he would teach the bad guys a lesson. The villains were for the most part the sort you could see in real life (crooked politicians, abusive husbands, etc.). You never saw him worry about the outcome. However, he would often times laugh at the villains futile attempts to hurt him. If I remember correctly kryptonite wasn't even created because they thought they needed the character to be vulnerable in order to be relatable. It was created so that the actor who played Superman on the radio show could have a vacation!

The bigger fundamental change to the original concept that Bryne made was making Clark Kent the real person and Superman the disguise. Although this was fun to see I think this was a mistake. Clark was no longer the invisible guy at the office that gets pushed around. The new Clark was nearly as perfect as his alter ego. He was successful both socially and professionally. I think in a way Bryne's attempt to make him more relatable backfired and made him more unrelatable (just my opinion). Also there was this special inside joke that Superman shared with his audience. While Lois went on and on about how much of a sissy Clark was, he'd turn to us with a grin on his face and give a wink. We were in on the joke with him! As a natural consequence of Clark being the real person, Lois inevitably fell for him. When she did he told her his secret. I think a vital element of the mythology is lost when you do that. The audience used to be the sole protecters of Superman's identity. Now Lois fills that role.

Boy that was longer than I thought it was going to be. t:

 

[The Question]

I've always felt that Clark being a complete lie is bull****. He was raised as Clark Kent. It would be incredibly disrespectful towards his parents to treat his time spent as Clark Kent as a joke.

 

[true316]

I've always felt that Clark being a complete lie is bull****. He was raised as Clark Kent. It would be incredibly disrespectful towards his parents to treat his time spent as Clark Kent as a joke.

Honestly, I disagree. I don't see it as disrespectful to his parents at all because Superman is the Clark Kent they raised. They played an important role in raising him to be the Earth's greatest hero. The fact that no one knows that this great man is in reality Clark Kent in no way diminishes what the Kents did. I hope I explained that in a way that makes sense.

Changing the subject a little, Question you seem to know alot about different comic characters and I could use a little help with some Superman fan fiction I'm working on. I need a stereotypical mad scientist type of villain from the comics. I vaguely remember someone named Dr. Killgrave but I don't know much about him. If you could give me a brief synopsis of his backstory or if you have any suggestions of characters that fit that description than I would appreciate it!

 

[The Question]

Honestly, I disagree. I don't see it as disrespectful to his parents at all because Superman is the Clark Kent they raised. They played an important role in raising him to be the Earth's greatest hero. The fact that no one knows that this great man is in reality Clark Kent in no way diminishes what the Kents did. I hope I explained that in a way that makes sense.

True. But for him to use the name Clark Kent for when he isn't being him seems very disrespectful to his parents. Way I see it, neither side of him is a lie. They're just different sides of him. People are multifaceted.

Changing the subject a little, Question you seem to know alot about different comic characters and I could use a little help with some Superman fan fiction I'm working on. I need a stereotypical mad scientist type of villain from the comics. I vaguely remember someone named Dr. Killgrave but I don't know much about him. If you could give me a brief synopsis of his backstory or if you have any suggestions of characters that fit that description than I would appreciate it!

I know nothing of Dr. Killgrave. However, there are a few villains who fit that mold:

1) Brainiac: He has two different versions of his origin in the comics. Pre Crisis, he was an alien artificial inteligence created as an enforcer for a Matrix/Borg kind of society with a techno/organic body. In post crisis, he was an organic alien life form who fused with a low level psionic metahuman and created a techno/organic body from fusion. I prefer a combination of the two: He's an artificial life form created to conquer and pacify other worlds that fused with a low level psionic metahuman named Milton Fine and turned his body into a techno/organic one. If you go with that version, then he's not truely veil, he simply wants to take over the world because it is in his nature to do so.

2) Emil Hamilton: He shares Lex Luthor's veiw on metahumans: They are highly dangerous, and ones not from Earth cannot be trusted. To this end, he has tried to destroy Superman a few times

3) Professor Ivo: A sociopath so fearful of death that he will go to any lengs to preserve his life, including murder. He created a super android known as Amazo to try and aquire the powers of metahumans for his own and possibly unlock the secrets to immortality. Now he is immortal through his own scientific experiments, but as a result he is horribly disfigured and in constant pain. Ironically, this has made him quite suicidal.

4) Thomas Morrow: Origionally questing for ultimate knowledge and the power and influence that would come with it, Morrow commited several crimes to gain such knowledge. Eventually, he gained access to a machien that could see into the future. Driven insane by the possible end of the world scenarios he has seen, he has done his best to try and warn others of the possible dangers awaiting. Because of his criminal record and his obvious mental instability, no one believes him.

 

[Andy C.]

Y'know, I've never really been able to decide what kind of power Superman should ideally have. On the one hand, if you get like the Silver Age stories where he's moving planets on a regular basis, you run out of ideas really quickly for how to make anything a threat to him. On the other hand, if he's back at the DCAU or Byrne-era levels where a couple of missiles take him down, he quickly becomes nothing special in the midst of all the other metas. After all, the old line is "this looks like a job for Superman," not "this looks like a job for any relatively powerful metahuman but Superman just so happens to be here."

Superman stories have got to feel like something particularly special, considering there are umpteen-billion different superhumans with comparable powers. Granted, one of the best ways to do this is to showcase his personality, but at the end of the day, actions speak louder than dialogue. Any cape worth his salt can slug it out with villains or stop the occasional accident. The Big Guy should be able to go the extra mile every now and then.

I'd like his power level to stay usually around urban-hero level, where someone like Metallo can still give him a good scrap, but then he can occasionally (key word: ocassionally, like after some kind of supercharge of sunlight or whatever) do something absolutely mind-blowing to cap off a major story arc. Kinda like how in SR, he was able to lift up the New Krypton continent, but doing so almost killed him. I personally like being kept guessing as to how far he can really go, since it's the only real bit of mystery left in the character.

 

[The Question]

I do agree, setting specific power levels for Superman is a very tricky thing. Personally, I would make his actions something special, but not necessairily by giving him huge feats. I'd basically make him out as the world's greatest hero, not because he's the most powerful, but because he serves as the moral compass of the DCU (and the League in particular). He is inspirational to them because of what he does, not what he's capable of. His adventures should reflect that. The Elite make very good villains for him in that regard. His stories should be about what it means to do the right thing, and most of his villains should be apart of that. Lex Luthor is the super genius who wants to svae the world wether we like it or not. Metallo is the very nasty killer who has some redeeming qualities that make him hard to place. The Parasite is the living embodyment of impulse, greed, hedonism, and violence, simply doing as he pleases and killing thousands in the process. You get the idea.

 

[Andy C.]

I do agree, setting specific power levels for Superman is a very tricky thing. Personally, I would make his actions something special, but not necessairily by giving him huge feats. I'd basically make him out as the world's greatest hero, not because he's the most powerful, but because he serves as the moral compass of the DCU (and the League in particular). He is inspirational to them because of what he does, not what he's capable of. His adventures should reflect that.

Kinda like DC's equivalent to Captain America, then (or rather, Captain America would be Marvel's equivalent of Superman, but y'know what I mean) Anyway, I definitely agree; the best thing about Superman should be his genuinely good personality (that's how I became a Supes fan in the first place). But I still think it wouldn't hurt for him to occasionally do something that shows everyone why he's the man.

The Elite make very good villains for him in that regard. His stories should be about what it means to do the right thing, and most of his villains should be apart of that. Lex Luthor is the super genius who wants to svae the world wether we like it or not. Metallo is the very nasty killer who has some redeeming qualities that make him hard to place. The Parasite is the living embodyment of impulse, greed, hedonism, and violence, simply doing as he pleases and killing thousands in the process. You get the idea.

Again, agreed. It also sort of works as a comparison to Batman, who operates primarily through fear ("obey the law or I'll come beat you up") rather than trust.

 

[The Question]

Kinda like DC's equivalent to Captain America, then (or rather, Captain America would be Marvel's equivalent of Superman, but y'know what I mean) Anyway, I definitely agree; the best thing about Superman should be his genuinely good personality (that's how I became a Supes fan in the first place). But I still think it wouldn't hurt for him to occasionally do something that shows everyone why he's the man.

Again, I think the reason why he's the man should be what he stands for, not how powerful he is. In the League, J'onn is the glue that binds them together, Batman is the brains that gives their power focus, and Superman is the honestly good person who inspires them and leads the charge. That, I think, is why he's the greatest.

Again, agreed. It also sort of works as a comparison to Batman, who operates primarily through fear ("obey the law or I'll come beat you up") rather than trust.

Basically. Superman wholeheartedly feels that human beings have great potential to be good people. Lex Luthor does aswell, but he thinks it needs a helping hand. That's where there's conflict between the two.