I fear that Strange will fail and be the least successful MCU film

[ehh]

I'll be seeing every Marvel film here on out because so far each one is of high quality. DC had three strikes in a row with Man of Steel, Batman v. Superman and Suicide Squad, but I'll still be seeing Wonder Woman and Justice League. Not having high hopes for them but I want them to be good.

 

[DrCosmic]

The Heroes Journey story structure/'formula' predates comic books by at least 3000 years.

As long as humanity retains the capacity to tell and enjoy stories, it will not suddenly magically go stale and stop putting asses in seats, whether the 'hero' of the story is named Odysseus, Flash Gordon, Dr. Strange or Rey totally-not-Skywalker.

The Marvel formula is a specific implementation of the hero's journey. The Hero's Journey does not specify that your hero should be a charming selfish hyper-talented guy who is a victim of his own flaws before he crosses the threshold. The Marvel formula generally does. The hero's journey does not specify that the Meeting with the Mentor gives them super powers, or that the Elixir is a superheroic persona, but comic books do.

We are discussing things that are specific, so we can explain why Odysseus and Dr. Strange fit the Marvel formula, but Flash Gordon and Rey do not, even though they experience the hero's journey.

 

[AlluAllu]

I'll be seeing every Marvel film here on out because so far each one is of high quality. DC had three strikes in a row with Man of Steel, Batman v. Superman and Suicide Squad, but I'll still be seeing Wonder Woman and Justice League. Not having high hopes for them but I want them to be good.

At this point Marvel could make a turd with 10 % at Rotten Tomatoes and I still would go see it. What they have done so far is so great that I'll gladly support Feigi even through a bad movie.

But I have high hopes for Phase 3. Civil War and Doctor Strange are clearly the best start of a phase Marvel has had.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Now Snyder is eating his own words. He had 2 of the most popular superheroes ever and failed to make a movie that could compete with the quality of B and C list characters like Ant Man or Doctor Strange.

That's your opinion. Many of us (maybe not on the Hype, but in general) loved all 3 movies you mentioned.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Now Snyder is eating his own words. He had 2 of the most popular superheroes ever and failed to make a movie that could compete with the quality of B and C list characters like Ant Man or Doctor Strange.

It's funny the RT score of MOS and BvS combined doesn't even equal Doctor Strange's score of 90%. How embarrassing is that? he never should have talked smack.

 

[Stark Bauer]

The Marvel formula is a specific implementation of the hero's journey. The Hero's Journey does not specify that your hero should be a charming selfish hyper-talented guy who is a victim of his own flaws before he crosses the threshold. The Marvel formula generally does. The hero's journey does not specify that the Meeting with the Mentor gives them super powers, or that the Elixir is a superheroic persona, but comic books do.

We are discussing things that are specific, so we can explain why Odysseus and Dr. Strange fit the Marvel formula, but Flash Gordon and Rey do not, even though they experience the hero's journey.

DrCosmic - what are your thoughts on the Marvel Netflix shows' implementation of the hero's journey - do they follow suit or do they do their own thing? I think their themes are much deeper but their format allows for strong character development

 

[Stark Bauer]

That's your opinion. Many of us (maybe not on the Hype, but in general) loved all 3 movies you mentioned.

They were box office flops. The amount of money spent on production and marketing specifically for BvS compared to their worldwide box office take was not according to their projections and even the opinions of comic book fans are divided....the general consensus on this movie from a comic book fans' perspective is that there is no general consensus

Whereas the consensus for DS is that it is one of the finest origin films since Iron Man 1

 

[ehh]

That's your opinion. Many of us (maybe not on the Hype, but in general) loved all 3 movies you mentioned.

The general consensus is that Man of Steel is mixed, and BvS & SS are both horrible films. Not saying opinion isn't a factor, but the general consensus is what it is.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

That's your opinion. Many of us (maybe not on the Hype, but in general) loved all 3 movies you mentioned.

even in general, that's a minority

 

[All-Father]

even in general, that's a minority

A "very small" minority. LOL.

 

[DrCosmic]

DrCosmic - what are your thoughts on the Marvel Netflix shows' implementation of the hero's journey - do they follow suit or do they do their own thing? I think their themes are much deeper but their format allows for strong character development

The Netflix shows are extremely divergent - as all good modern TV is. Even from each other, I'd have a lot harder time placing a through line. If anything they follow the 'Premium Channel Crime Drama Formula' which is a lot less specific and a lot more about being tortured and enduring than being a jerk and learning to be less of one.

In all these series, we meet the hero who is already very capable, who already has their powers, and we unravel over time how they got that way, what their threshold crossing was, because they're already way past it. You can look at it from another angle as Matt crosses a new threshold into the devil persona, JJ into the return of Purple Man's shadow, Cage into Cottonmouth's sights, but all these are about the antagonist and not so much about the hero's entering a new phase or location or paradigm. They do of course follow the Hero's journey loosely, but their return from adventure to their own world is equally as abstract, and what they bring back with them is usually the biggest status quo change, that is, their most heroic persona, which for JJ and Cage isn't really all that heroic, honestly.

This also allows them to more easily transition to a Season 2, for something like Daredevil who really can re-do a lot of the beats from Season 1, just with a different angle or scope, and it still works, so long as the angle is fresh enough, and Punisher, and to a lesser degree Elektra, definitely were.

 

[Stark Bauer]

The Netflix shows are extremely divergent - as all good modern TV is. Even from each other, I'd have a lot harder time placing a through line. If anything they follow the 'Premium Channel Crime Drama Formula' which is a lot less specific and a lot more about being tortured and enduring than being a jerk and learning to be less of one.

In all these series, we meet the hero who is already very capable, who already has their powers, and we unravel over time how they got that way, what their threshold crossing was, because they're already way past it. You can look at it from another angle as Matt crosses a new threshold into the devil persona, JJ into the return of Purple Man's shadow, Cage into Cottonmouth's sights, but all these are about the antagonist and not so much about the hero's entering a new phase or location or paradigm. They do of course follow the Hero's journey loosely, but their return from adventure to their own world is equally as abstract, and what they bring back with them is usually the biggest status quo change, that is, their most heroic persona, which for JJ and Cage isn't really all that heroic, honestly.

This also allows them to more easily transition to a Season 2, for something like Daredevil who really can re-do a lot of the beats from Season 1, just with a different angle or scope, and it still works, so long as the angle is fresh enough, and Punisher, and to a lesser degree Elektra, definitely were.

Thanks for that. What you wrote could be an article on superherohype. I won't be able to watch the shows the same way anymore because I will be looking at the antagonist's journey instead.

 

[The_Manhunter]

The general consensus is that Man of Steel is mixed, and BvS & SS are both horrible films. Not saying opinion isn't a factor, but the general consensus is what it is.

Opinion of movie goers in general has been favorable for all 3, at least when I've looked at that kind of stuff. I'll give you critics for sure hate them mostly and fanboys are split, but I wasn't talking about those groups.

even in general, that's a minority

That's not true, but was that bait you put there really necessary?

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

That's not true

do you have data for that assumption?

 

[Infinight888]

Opinion of movie goers in general has been favorable for all 3, at least when I've looked at that kind of stuff.

It hasn't, though. If you look at Cinemascore (which polls audiences right at the theater on opening night), BvS and Suicide Squad scored a B and a B+ respectively. While a B+ or an A- movie can be mediocre, anything lower than that from Cinemascore is terrible. Between all the X-Men, MCU and Spider-Man films, not one has ever been so bad as to get a B. Even X-Men origins got a B+. BvS' B grade is typically reserved for the likes of Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Catwoman or Pixels.

 

[Mandon Knight]

It doesn't matter it if its a minority or not, a number of people (myself included) got the most from watching the DCEU films to date that they a) expected and b) wanted and equally as 'valid' to those of you that enjoy the MCEU.

 

[Infinight888]

It doesn't matter it if its a minority or not, a number of people (myself included) got the most from watching the DCEU films to date that they a) expected and b) wanted and equally as 'valid' to those of you that enjoy the MCEU.

Of course. Your personal subjective opinion on an objectively unpopular and panned movie is perfectly valid for you. Personally, I actually like Pixels, despite the fact that, like BvS, it's viewed by the general population as a steaming pile of ****. I don't believe I or anyone else here is trying to shame people for enjoying terrible movies like those in the DCEU.

 

[The Whizzer]

#9 highest grossing film of the year.

That failure!

 

[Darepool]

Well received too. Kudos to Scott Derrickson.

 

[daddydivine]

Of course. Your personal subjective opinion on an objectively unpopular and panned movie is perfectly valid for you. Personally, I actually like Pixels, despite the fact that, like BvS, it's viewed by the general population as a steaming pile of ****. I don't believe I or anyone else here is trying to shame people for enjoying terrible movies like those in the DCEU.

Honestly, I'm a huge Marvel fan, but unlike Pixels people still came out in droves to see BvS as well as SS. I don't actually care since Marvel is killing it. I just dislike when people somehow believe they know what the general public likes when evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

What a stupid prediction

 

[Batmannerism]

I had a free movie ticket (built up from loyalty points) so I went to see Dr Strange again (3rd time), as it comes to the end of its run tomorrow (replaced by Rogue One).

I thought, that after not having seen it for a month, I might enjoy it less.
Surprisingly, I was completely sucked in and enjoyed it even more the third time, and it has replaced Iron Man as my favorite origin story film.

I still think CW is Marvel's best film to date, but Strange is only a nose behind.

9/10.

 

[Infinight888]

Honestly, I'm a huge Marvel fan, but unlike Pixels people still came out in droves to see BvS as well as SS. I don't actually care since Marvel is killing it. I just dislike when people somehow believe they know what the general public likes when evidence suggests otherwise.

People came out in droves for Batman v Superman based on marketing, and the fact that it was the first time Batman and Superman ever met each other on the big screen. This is why the movie had no legs, and the drop-off in its second week was one of the largest in history.

Also, I don't "believe" I know what the general public likes, as if it's a matter of faith. I go by Cinemascore, which polls moviegoers right at the theater on opening night. Audience members gave BvS a "B" grade, which is the exact same rating as Pixels.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

People came out in droves for Batman v Superman based on marketing, and the fact that it was the first time Batman and Superman ever met each other on the big screen. This is why the movie had no legs, and the drop-off in its second week was one of the largest in history.

Also, I don't "believe" I know what the general public likes, as if it's a matter of faith. I go by Cinemascore, which polls moviegoers right at the theater on opening night. Audience members gave BvS a "B" grade, which is the exact same rating as Pixels.

Yeah. It is one thing to try and predict in advance what the general public will like. I usually go off of the general premise and whether it has the talent and budget to be a success. There are some films that I predicted well in advance would be hits with the general public (like the first Pirates of the Caribbean or Iron Man), and others I've missed on completely (I thought Avatar would be a dud).

But once a film is out and we've seen the reaction, there is usually enough evidence available to fairly convincingly figure out whether the audience was happy, unhappy, polarized, or indifferent. At least the case of big blockbusters.

 

[Luke234]

If its Marvel the critics will like it and everyone will say it's at least pretty good even if it sucks. Just look at the Thor movies and age of ultron.

Or iron man 3

The critics killed BVS with their marvel fetish and scared a lot of people away. I know plenty of people who hate everything DC except for batman and went to see the movie pretty much just to say civil war was better.