Why would a man who has spent his entire life underground and sees how prison life and other prisoners act (in a dog eat dog world where raping, murder and violence is rampant and okay), risk his life to save a little girl and think of her as "innocent" and protect her?
Shouldn't living underground harden him and make him that monster that Ra's sees in him?
Every scene and line in the film is executed poorly?
So the scene where Bruce meets Selina for the first time trying to steal his mothers pearls, that's executed poorly?
Batman's return scene, you mean to tell me that's a huge mess?
Yes, there are problems with the film, but saying the entire thing, from start to finish is a mess is beyond ridiculous.
Well, this entire thing originated out of,
Please tell me how these two are good, compelling villains? PLEASE. I need to see this maturity and respect for the characters and how they're better than previous incarnations.
The only one that has said "you can all have opinions but you shouldn't think this way" is you, milost.
Bane was a compelling villain to me. My favorite Batman villain done right in a film, imo, that hit certain marks of the character in the comics(even if some don't view it the same way). I even enjoyed the change of pace of him working alongside Talia as opposed to Talia hating Bane as in the comics because it fit with Nolan's goal of bringing back the LoS. Again, some do not, and you obviously don't, but to me, Bane was a very compelling villain that I ended up feeling sorry for in the end with how he cared for and protected Talia, his real life Osito.
Have I ever said Talia was compelling though? I don't think I have. In fact, I know I have listed Talia as my least enjoyable villain in Nolan's trilogy.
I feel the "lovely voice" comment was him using humor. And the second comment didn't feel like he cared for Pavel's children. He was simply giving Dr. Pavel motivation to do what Bane said. I guess it comes down to how you interpret it. But don't you find it bizarre that if Bane does care for children, why would he want to blow up a city filled with children?I will always view those two lines from Bane to be about his views on the innocence of children. If not, then the "lovely, lovely voice" statement as well the "For the sake of your children, Dr. Pavel" lines aren't even necessary and make too much sense because of how Bane cared for a young Talia to not connect the dots. You don't, then marvelous, but I certainly do. I've thought that way since the first time I saw TDKR.
That was my theory awhile ago and some posters and I discussed this. Again, I feel the "LOS' was a symbol, like Batman. Anybody can claim to be the LOS, just like those phonies were dressing up as "Batman". And while the Joker didn't know who the real Batman was, he knew Brian was a phonie.And during my discussions with Shikamaru, those men may not have even been LoS and instead Bane's men/mercenaries. Bane had the army, and Talia needed an army = Bane didn't just "come along"(if you go by that theory, and it's quite interesting).
I was saying that every scene and every line in the movie was discussed and analyzed. I didn't say that every scene and every line in the movie is bad.
I feel the "lovely voice" comment was him using humor. And the second comment didn't feel like he cared for Pavel's children. He was simply giving Dr. Pavel motivation to do what Bane said. I guess it comes down to how you interpret it. But don't you find it bizarre that if Bane does care for children, why would he want to blow up a city filled with children?
That was my theory awhile ago and some posters and I discussed this. Again, I feel the "LOS' was a symbol, like Batman. Anybody can claim to be the LOS, just like those phonies were dressing up as "Batman". And while the Joker didn't know who the real Batman was, he knew Brian was a phonie.
With that said, from the first time I watched it in the theater, I thought that Talia and Bane's LOS was not Ra's's LOS. However, they may have some former members because how else would she have found out who killed her father?
But overall, I agree with you that most of their army is Bane's mercenaries.
So, I was flipping through the Art of The Dark Knight Trilogy book in a store today and came upon this interesting passage.
"One idea that intrigued the writer/director as he considered a sequel was how he might interpret the Joker in the hyperrael world of Batman Begins, and how the Joker might act as the catalyst for Bruce Wayne's becoming more entrenched in his Batman mission. 'We'd laid down the idea in Batman Begins that Bruce Wayne's plan in becoming Batman was to do what he could do for a finite period of time,' said Nolan. 'He had something like a five-year plan, a set amount of time he would spend setting Gotham straight, and then he would go off and do something else with his life, because, like anybody else, he wanted a life other than one of vigilantism and subterfuge.'
To borrow from an old aphorism: Men make plans, and the Joker laughs.
'With the reveal of the joker card at the end of Batman Begins,' said Nolan, 'we created the sense that it wasn't going to be as simple as Bruce doing what he could for five years and then getting out."
Idk about the rest of you, but to me that reads like the eight-year retirement was not part of the original plan. And that disappoints me, because thought I did not hate that plot point, I would have much rather seen a movie where Bruce truly gets lost in his monster.
I gotta say, for the longest I believed them to have been the League of Shadows, but I'm really getting the idea that Talia and Bane were the LoS, and those men? They were always Bane's men since their coup in Africa mentioned by Alfred and Talia just came into this plan and then it became, more or less, a "League of Shadows 2.0"(so it kinda reflects how I always called them the LoS 2.0 anyways, but now it's just they became that title after the partnership of Talia al Ghul and Bane).
So, I was flipping through the Art of The Dark Knight Trilogy book in a store today and came upon this interesting passage.
"One idea that intrigued the writer/director as he considered a sequel was how he might interpret the Joker in the hyperrael world of Batman Begins, and how the Joker might act as the catalyst for Bruce Wayne's becoming more entrenched in his Batman mission. 'We'd laid down the idea in Batman Begins that Bruce Wayne's plan in becoming Batman was to do what he could do for a finite period of time,' said Nolan. 'He had something like a five-year plan, a set amount of time he would spend setting Gotham straight, and then he would go off and do something else with his life, because, like anybody else, he wanted a life other than one of vigilantism and subterfuge.'
To borrow from an old aphorism: Men make plans, and the Joker laughs.
'With the reveal of the joker card at the end of Batman Begins,' said Nolan, 'we created the sense that it wasn't going to be as simple as Bruce doing what he could for five years and then getting out."
Idk about the rest of you, but to me that reads like the eight-year retirement was not part of the original plan. And that disappoints me, because thought I did not hate that plot point, I would have much rather seen a movie where Bruce truly gets lost in his monster.
So, I was flipping through the Art of The Dark Knight Trilogy book in a store today and came upon this interesting passage.
"One idea that intrigued the writer/director as he considered a sequel was how he might interpret the Joker in the hyperrael world of Batman Begins, and how the Joker might act as the catalyst for Bruce Wayne's becoming more entrenched in his Batman mission. 'We'd laid down the idea in Batman Begins that Bruce Wayne's plan in becoming Batman was to do what he could do for a finite period of time,' said Nolan. 'He had something like a five-year plan, a set amount of time he would spend setting Gotham straight, and then he would go off and do something else with his life, because, like anybody else, he wanted a life other than one of vigilantism and subterfuge.'
To borrow from an old aphorism: Men make plans, and the Joker laughs.
'With the reveal of the joker card at the end of Batman Begins,' said Nolan, 'we created the sense that it wasn't going to be as simple as Bruce doing what he could for five years and then getting out."
Idk about the rest of you, but to me that reads like the eight-year retirement was not part of the original plan. And that disappoints me, because thought I did not hate that plot point, I would have much rather seen a movie where Bruce truly gets lost in his monster.
I just watched TDK again this morning, and I do believe some form of exile for Batman was planned. In Rachel's letter she mentions that a day when Gotham no longer needs Batman would possibly come, but a day when Bruce no longer needed Batman would never come.
Perhaps Bruce's self imposed exile as Batman wouldn't be 8 years, but I still think the first act in TDKR would have stayed pretty much the same, at least for Bruce's arc; had Heath lived, and returned as the Joker.
That's a good catch. I always took that quote to mean that he'd just continue being Batman beyond the point of being needed just as a way to deal with his issues, but you're right, that line perfectly plays into the setup of TDKR. Gotham no longer needs Batman, but Bruce does and while he knows enough to walk away, he's emotionally stunted and struggling to find purpose without it.
I don't disagree with this, but I think a lot of us are having trouble understanding why exactly Bane and Talia want to blow Gotham City to bits while killing themselves in the process? However, I do understand that Talia wanted Batman to witness his failure in saving his city. But again, I don't know why she would go through the trouble of killing herself just to make Batman suffer. Bane's motivation is even more bizarre.Bane is the "necessary evil" that came to destroy a city with his partner(and yes, I will always believe them to be partners) Talia in destroying a city that Ra's al Ghul tried to(but this time, they weren't going to press the restart button on Gotham; they were just going to blow it all up to Hell), but even with being this "necessary evil", there's nothing wrong in showing your feelings and views on children since that calls back to Bane's time in the Pit when he protected a child from all of the other inmates.
Just another reason why I believe they are the LOS 2.0. When Bane was ex-communicated, he and Talia had a lot of time to put together their own crew.
I gotta say, for the longest I believed them to have been the League of Shadows, but I'm really getting the idea that Talia and Bane were the LoS, and those men? They were always Bane's men since their coup in Africa mentioned by Alfred and Talia just came into this plan and then it became, more or less, a "League of Shadows 2.0"(so it kinda reflects how I always called them the LoS 2.0 anyways, but now it's just they became that title after the partnership of Talia al Ghul and Bane).
I don't disagree with this, but I think a lot of us are having trouble understanding why exactly Bane and Talia want to blow Gotham City to bits while killing themselves? However, I do understand that Talia wanted Batman to witness his failure in saving his city. But again, I don't know why she would go through the trouble of killing herself just to make Batman suffer. Bane's motivation is even more bizarre.
I don't disagree with this, but I think a lot of us are having trouble understanding why exactly Bane and Talia want to blow Gotham City to bits while killing themselves in the process? However, I do understand that Talia wanted Batman to witness his failure in saving his city. But again, I don't know why she would go through the trouble of killing herself just to make Batman suffer. Bane's motivation is even more bizarre.
Yes, but what was their cause? To fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny? That's actually not what Ra's wanted. So there had to have been another reason.Why do it when they will die too? Much like suicide bombers, they believe in their cause thoroughly despite how people on the outside may point out flaws in their logic. I don't think I need to cite modern examples.
Yes, but what was their cause? To fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny? That's actually not what Ra's wanted. So there had to have been another reason.
Fair enough.Again, it doesn't make sense from an outside perspective. I see it the same way that The Crusades were started to spread Christianity through violent methods in a way that many Christians today would consider a misinterpretation of scripture. I took it that they missed the point of Ra's message to an extent and ended up believing their own twisted version of it all.