In The Multiverse Of Madness Spoiler Discussion Thread

[javonstokess]

However, this movie pissed me off more than most of the other ones for 2 reasons

1)because it tries to manipulate the audience with the Illuminati cameos. They are only in this film because bringing back other established characters worked so well in No Way Home. They have zero impact on the story, whereas in NWH the cameos are a direct result of Spider-Man 's actions, and all of them have an arc ( well maybe not Lizard and Sandman).

And even in the scene where Wanda kills them all, Captain Carter and Captain Marvel literally stand there watching while Wanda shreds Mr Fantastic.

And

2) There's lots of running around and busy-work. E.g. What was the point of the book of the Vishanti ? ( which didn't actually have any impact on the outcome ).

Ugh. Terrible writing.

Frustrating - but I'm not sure if I agree it's the worst MCU film.

I already explain the purpose of #1 above, but, for #2, the Book of Vishanti was basically a bait-and-switch. Tons of movies have them.

 

[javonstokess]

I really wish they mentioned other heroes being around the battle of Thanos. It makes it seem like that like weak group of 6(with Strange) was able to defeat a full infinity gauntlet Thanos.
I looked at the gauntlet and it was not toast so Thanos did not snap the fingers, so no way did they beat him. Time stone Strange couldn't beat him wouldn't that be stronger than Dark Hold Strange? Thanos had Reality stone he could have killed Black Bolt the same way but he must not have wanted to kill similar to the Stark fight. Xavier is not doing any physical thing to Thanos unless he did what Mantis tried to pull off he would be little help. Captain Carter is no Steve Rodgers but looked undamaged standing there. Rambeau would have held own similar to Danvers.

Everything doesn't need to be spelled out, folks. That wasn't the focus of the movie.

 

[Bayne]

I really wish they mentioned other heroes being around the battle of Thanos. It makes it seem like that like weak group of 6(with Strange) was able to defeat a full infinity gauntlet Thanos.
I looked at the gauntlet and it was not toast so Thanos did not snap the fingers, so no way did they beat him. Time stone Strange couldn't beat him wouldn't that be stronger than Dark Hold Strange? Thanos had Reality stone he could have killed Black Bolt the same way but he must not have wanted to kill similar to the Stark fight. Xavier is not doing any physical thing to Thanos unless he did what Mantis tried to pull off he would be little help. Captain Carter is no Steve Rodgers but looked undamaged standing there. Rambeau would have held own similar to Danvers.

The movie explicitly says they defeated Thanos by using the Book of Vishanti which 'gives a hero whatever they need to defeat their enemy'. I saw the movie on Thursday so that's probably not the exact wording, obviously, but the book's ability to defeat ANY enemy was the whole point of Ponytail Strange trying to get America there and of 616 Strange trying to get America there. So since the 838 heroes *actually* got their hands on it, it wouldn't matter how many of them there were. Defeating Thanos was basically guaranteed at that point.

 

[legendkillin]

The movie explicitly says they defeated Thanos by using the Book of Vishanti which 'gives a hero whatever they need to defeat their enemy'. I saw the movie on Thursday so that's probably not the exact wording, obviously, but the book's ability to defeat ANY enemy was the whole point of Ponytail Strange trying to get America there and of 616 Strange trying to get America there. So since the 838 heroes *actually* got their hands on it, it wouldn't matter how many of them there were. Defeating Thanos was basically guaranteed at that point.

I suppose but they then make the book so weak as soon as Strange obtains it Wanda blast it. From what I read about the book in the comics it is defense only so they must have not made it defense only in the movie.

 

[Bayne]

I suppose but they then make the book so weak as soon as Strange obtains it Wanda blast it. From what I read about the book in the comics it is defense only so they must have not made it defense only in the movie.

Well, it definitely was not defense only in the movie. I may not remember the exact wording but it was very much described aggressively.

As for it being weak, it's basically the 'good guy' version of the Darkhold and Wanda destroyed that with ease, too. She can do that. Maybe Thanos could have, too, if he were able to follow them into the junction like she did, but there's no reason to assume he was actually actively following them when they went to find the book.

 

[Detective Conan]

 

[BobJM]

Pretty surprised we didn’t get Strange & Wanda teaming up to fight Chthon at the top of Wundagore Mountain at the end of this movie.

I thought the moment she decides to give up her quest (ie leaves her children with the other Wanda), Chthon would reveal himself as the puppeteer behind the Darkhold and Wanda’s actions as the Scarlet Witch. She could still sacrifice herself in the end but the audience would still have a sense of redemption for this fallen avenger while still getting the fun of her as a cutthroat villain throughout.

Since we didn’t get that, I think a scene to help illustrate Wanda’s descent since the post-credits of WandaVision would have been helpful & most welcome. To Raimi’s credit, I think the pacing of this film was excellent so not sure where/how to incorporate such an addition.

 

[BobJM]

I am curious if rumors about Tom Cruise as Iron Man were true, and a deal just couldn’t be worked/schedule couldn’t be arranged, or if it was just internet clickbait.

As awesome as it was to see Reed Richards, I think the Illuminati may have been more impactful if it’s lead by a more familiar MCU staple—a superior Iron Man. I mentioned this in the Illuminati thread but the way Krasinksi’s Reed was written could easily be applied to this universe’s Tony Stark. The world’s smartest man, husband & father (Pepper & Morgan), member of the Illuminati, etc. The death of Tony Stark was a major moment in MCU history, think of how impactful it would be to see Wanda murder Iron Man? She’s always had a tumultuous history with Stark anyway…

 

[Spider-Fan]

Pretty surprised we didn’t get Strange & Wanda teaming up to fight Chthon at the top of Wundagore Mountain at the end of this movie.

I thought the moment she decides to give up her quest (ie leaves her children with the other Wanda), Chthon would reveal himself as the puppeteer behind the Darkhold and Wanda’s actions as the Scarlet Witch. She could still sacrifice herself in the end but the audience would still have a sense of redemption for this fallen avenger while still getting the fun of her as a cutthroat villain throughout.

Since we didn’t get that, I think a scene to help illustrate Wanda’s descent since the post-credits of WandaVision would have been helpful & most welcome. To Raimi’s credit, I think the pacing of this film was excellent so not sure where/how to incorporate such an addition.

I like that they didn't take that out. They committed to Wanda's turn here, and that to me was more interesting. Having it be C'thon all along diminishes Wanda's arc in the story and sort of takes away her agency. I preferred it this way.

But on to your other post about Iron Man, wasn't there an empty chair? A 7th one? We could maybe see 838 Iron Man come back in the future seeking to avenge what happened here. Where would we see that? Don't know. But it is an option

 

[Hannibal75]

I like that they didn't take that out. They committed to Wanda's turn here, and that to me was more interesting. Having it be C'thon all along diminishes Wanda's arc in the story and sort of takes away her agency. I preferred it this way.

But on to your other post about Iron Man, wasn't there an empty chair? A 7th one? We could maybe see 838 Iron Man come back in the future seeking to avenge what happened here. Where would we see that? Don't know. But it is an option

According to leaks, the 7th Illuminati was supposed to be Balder the Brave, portrayed by Bruce Campbell in his usual cameo. For some reason they cut this off and Campbell took on a new role, Pizza Poppa.

 

[Spider-Fan]

According to leaks, the 7th Illuminati was supposed to be Balder the Brave, portrayed by Bruce Campbell in his usual cameo. For some reason they cut this off and Campbell took on a new role, Pizza Poppa.

Copy. Well.... it was cut so it aint cannon. Could always use my idea since they went another direction

 

[BobJM]

I like that they didn't take that out. They committed to Wanda's turn here, and that to me was more interesting. Having it be C'thon all along diminishes Wanda's arc in the story and sort of takes away her agency. I preferred it this way.

Yeah that’s fair. It’s an interesting place to put Wanda for sure.

But on to your other post about Iron Man, wasn't there an empty chair? A 7th one? We could maybe see 838 Iron Man come back in the future seeking to avenge what happened here. Where would we see that? Don't know. But it is an option

Interesting; I’ll have to keep an eye out on a next viewing for an empty chair. I think this was the moment to introduce him, however. Unless they’re saving him for Secret Wars. But, to be frank, I’d rather see RDJ back as a Superior Iron Man in that movie when it eventually happens.

 

[Johnny Richards]

I am curious if rumors about Tom Cruise as Iron Man were true, and a deal just couldn’t be worked/schedule couldn’t be arranged, or if it was just internet clickbait.

As awesome as it was to see Reed Richards, I think the Illuminati may have been more impactful if it’s lead by a more familiar MCU staple—a superior Iron Man. I mentioned this in the Illuminati thread but the way Krasinksi’s Reed was written could easily be applied to this universe’s Tony Stark. The world’s smartest man, husband & father (Pepper & Morgan), member of the Illuminati, etc. The death of Tony Stark was a major moment in MCU history, think of how impactful it would be to see Wanda murder Iron Man? She’s always had a tumultuous history with Stark anyway…

If you're going to introduce the smartest man in the world in a room where Reed Richards and Tony Stark are sitting, you're introducing Reed Richards.

 

[Web-Head]

Wouldn't the empty chair just be alluding to Strange and his death in 838? That'd be my guess

 

[Web-Head]

So, obviously a large part of the 3rd film will deal with Strange, Clea and the Dark Dimension but we need to see some sort of closure with Strange and Mordo as well.

 

[Donner]

I was bummed not to see Chris Evans as Human Torch.

But I also didn't want to see Wanda kill him so that's okay.

I assume no one actually thinks Wanda died at the end?

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

I mentioned in my 2nd viewing post that Vision was a much more important figure to 616 Wanda not the kids. Westview was due to losing Vision and trying to get him back all the way up to the end of the show. They should have tried to get Vision in the movie unless Bettany refused.

However in Westview

Spoiler

Vision left Wanda and they were seperated so giving him limited free will Wanda would not force him back

and thus she may have focused on getting her kids who were just gone as she heard in her dreams the boys calling for help.

 

[Iceman]

She explained it well.

 

[Frodo]

I am curious if rumors about Tom Cruise as Iron Man were true, and a deal just couldn’t be worked/schedule couldn’t be arranged, or if it was just internet clickbait.

As awesome as it was to see Reed Richards, I think the Illuminati may have been more impactful if it’s lead by a more familiar MCU staple—a superior Iron Man. I mentioned this in the Illuminati thread but the way Krasinksi’s Reed was written could easily be applied to this universe’s Tony Stark. The world’s smartest man, husband & father (Pepper & Morgan), member of the Illuminati, etc. The death of Tony Stark was a major moment in MCU history, think of how impactful it would be to see Wanda murder Iron Man? She’s always had a tumultuous history with Stark anyway…

My guess is that they originally hoped to get alot of actors such as Tom Cruise as Ironman and Hugh Jackman as Wolverine, but do to scheduling for some, rejections from others, etc, they didn't ultimately pan out.

Of course, hope and aspirations are different from actually being able to snag the actors or to make the deal happen.

Something similar happened on the Crisis On Infinite Earths CW crossover, in that, there were several actors they approached, but some couldn't do it due to scheduling , others wanted alot of money, and some still turned down returning all together.

That's just my theory of course.
It may be that the Cruise and Jackman thing were always just fake rumors thrown out there to keep fans off the scent.

 

[kguillou]

Where would Jackman's Wolverine have fit in this story? I think the Illuminati scene was always intended to be the only scene in the movie where we get our fanservice/cameos. I dont believe the story was meant to have characters pop up throughout the film.

 

[TheVileOne]

Where would Jackman's Wolverine have fit in this story? I think the Illuminati scene was always intended to be the only scene in the movie where we get our fanservice/cameos. I dont believe the story was meant to have characters pop up throughout the film.

The Illuminati barely even fit into this story. Wolverine/Hugh Jackman would've been an even more pointless cameo.

Tom Cruise as Superior Iron Man at least would've made sense as a fun one-off cameo. Iron Man being a part of the Illuminati at least has precedence. You do Tom Cruise as Iron Man because Downey is retired and you play around with the Multiverse concept.

 

[sdgrandia86]

Saw Into The Multiverse of Army of Darkness for a second time and I was able to appreciate it much more.

The combination of VFX and practical, effects and costume design was on point. Shuma Gorath looked beautiful - loved the attention to detail from the runes covering him to his "lips/mouth," happy we got two Kaiju size monsters in Starro (Suicide Sqaud) and Shuma in a year span.

Deadite Strange looked great from the prosthetics, his walking and maneuverability when opening the portal and him being surrounded then controlling and using the souls of the damned was so cool - those things and their voices were straight out of Army of Darkness. Loved his entrance when he knocked Wanda's minions off the cliff.

The opening sequence in NY was beautiful and got me teary eyed. It had that yellow/golden tint that reminded me of his Spidey films. He manages to capture NY in such a unique way; very vibrantly and uses the background and people to enahnce and bring the city to life.

616 Strange entrance as he goes to investigate the commotion, America getting stuck on the ledge and kicking it onto Shuma Gorath and that shot of the scretary screaming along with Elfmans score and the before mentioned color palette was very reminisce of his work on the Tobey movies and made me realize how much I missed Raimi in the super hero world.

I also thought Wong fight against Shuma was very well choreographed, really cool use of the kuneai spear and the magic sword was just bad ass.

Possession - Scarlet Witch possessing Wanda was full on Evil Dead 2, love the silence as the camera creeps in and stalks Wanda and the kids, the lights dangling around, the picture frame, the ocean in the cup of tea and peas moving around the plate all create this uneasy feeling building to Wanda meeting the Witch through the reflection. I was half expecting a deer head to start laughing.

By comparison, the 2nd time she gets possessed had that fast paced camera work knocking through the window, and then knocking the dominos possessing Wanda once again.

This was also seen in the Siege of Kamartaj as the Witch searched for Chavez - Raimi once again uses silence and natural effects (water) to create tension in a way many can't or fail. Again, the sudden doors shutting, the sound design, the eye in the water, and the way the Witch emerges from the reflection and the way her body twisted and reformed was full on Evil Dead/Drag Me To Hell.

616 Strange vs Darkhold Supreme Strange fight was pretty awesome and unique; loved the song battle between them to what I believe had some Beethoven 5th in there. The visuals and use of magic was unsual, unique and very much the perfect Raimi/Elfman pairing.

Loved the practical effects of 616 Strange using the Darkhold and all the candles closing around him.

The scene between Strange, Chavez and Mordo talking about Dreamwalking with overimposed images of the Witch performing the spell with the vibrant red colors, candles and that music was *chefs kiss* sexy!

Wanda - that dream sequence with the kids did a really good job at eatablishing her as a sympathetic character and her relationship with her kids for those that didn't see Wandavision. Those kids are just adorable and am happy they made it to the big screen. Hearing the theme for WV, my favorite of the netflix shows, was a bittersweet.

Wanda has become my favorite character in the MCU facing adveristy and overcoming tragedy after tragedy. I was hoping this film would put her on a a road of redemption and happiness under the guidance of Strange but the film did a good job at painting her tragic and sad story, not evil but corrupted, and redeeming her in the end. Hoping we see her return and reunited with her grown and fully powered kids along with the help she needs. She deserves it.

Writing all of this without mentioning the Illuminati or the transitions accross the multiverse is a testament of how strong the movie really is as it's own without the need of gimmicks - of course it plays a part but the cameos were the cherry on top for me.

I loved seeing Black Bolt on his comic accurate costume; the show did the Inhumans dirty and hope they get another shot; Reed was played very well, full of wisdom abd grace and hope we get more of Krasinsky as Reed, Captain Carter was pretty cool, Captain Marvel was forgetable, and seeing Patrick Stewart on the yellow wheelchair with the X Men cartoon them playing was nostalgic. Always full of hope and seeing the best in humanity, loved the use of the quote.

Great scene and death when he entered Wanda mind and got his neck snapped. Still, Black Bolt death takes the number one spot; his death was brutal; followed by Captain Carter and impaled Strange.

I was expecting more cameos and more exploration of the multiverse but am glad with what we got. I think the cameos we got served their purpose and introduced the concept of realities collapsing (the term escapes me) As much as I would have loved seeing Ghost Rider, Tobey Spidey and Deadpool, adding more cameos would have been distracting and dilute the film upseting the fans of those characters. Perhaps they could have been added during the multiverse travel sequence as it was beautiful but a bit short. That will probably be explored in a Battleworld/Secret Wars type of movie. Anyway, I'm happy with what we got.

Great cameo by Bruce and one my favorite end credits scene - pretty much the Evil Dead/AoD gag - love the humor and find it funny how upset some people are getting over it considering Caps patience end credits scene.

Loved the reflection trap in Kamertaj and the scene in Wandas farm as it turns a brautiful orchard field into a red wasteland.

The use of humor was subtle and on point; it didn't distract from the film.

The romance subplot was also on point, short, sweet and mature.

Cons

- No deer head laughing and screaming "Swallow your soul."
- Was hoping for a necronomicon or Ash cameo

But those are superficial and just self imposed expectations that didn't take anything out of the movie we got.

- I do think adding Paul Bettany as the father/husband in the Illuminati world would have enhanced and added more depth, tragedy and sadness; and motivation to a corrupted Witch.

Only thing I don't get is that Wanda is described as Nexus being so shouldn't she be unique accross the multiverse just like Chavez?

The movie just showed how flawed and messy NWH is and the disservice they did to Strange.

In the end, it was one of the best movies experiences. It felt like a Sam Raimi movie with Doctor Strange in it and as a fan of horror and comics I was very pleased with how the worlds merged - let's not forget Blade played around with it first. Hope Marvel gives directors more control as it didn't feel like it had the Marvel lenses and had more of Raimi style much like GotG and Ragnarok with Gunn and Taika. Hoping for more Raimi in the supernatural world.

Definitely up there with Spider Man 2, XMen 2, Days of Future Past, Logan, Deadpool and The Batman.

 

[Batmannerism]

I already explain the purpose of #1 above, but, for #2, the Book of Vishanti was basically a bait-and-switch. Tons of movies have them.

hey, if you like this film, fair play to you, but that defense of terrible writing is unintentionally hilarious.

So the Illuminati were there to show how powerful Wanda is: guess that whole Kamar Taj sequence was unnecessary then, eh. Every other reason you've given is simply " look at this thing we might do later" rather than actually do something worthwhile with the story you're currently showing us. It's fan service, done badly - why do you think they did massive reshoots, after the success of NWH.

Did you like the way we're told that Reed is the world's smartest man, and then he straight up tells Wanda the one guaranteed way to defeat Black Bolt ? Or how the rest of the team just stand there and watch him get turned to spaghetti.

As for the book of Vishanti, that's not "bait and switch" its a maguffin, and when maguffins are done well they add a lot to a story. Here, it was just busy-work.

The fact that other movies have maguffins or bait and switches doesn't mean that either of those plot devices were used cleverly in this movie.

Hey if you like all that, great, because Marvel's got a **** load more of that coming, no doubt. You will be entertained indeed. Enjoy !

 

[Batmannerism]

The Illuminati sequence is designed to show Wanda is now a MAJOR threat to the Multiverse and an extremely formidable supervillain. She was single-handedly able to dispatch the 838 Avengers who had already beat Thanos. Imagine if she went up against the 616 Avengers in the coming future. Would they fare better against her?

Without the Illuminati sequence the full measure of Scarlet Witch's power remained unproven. Now we know she's VERY powerful.

Did you sleep through the part where she slaughters 90% of the sorcerors of Kamar Taj, and whoops Strange and Wong ? Or maybe you dozed off in Endgame when she nearly took out Thanos one on one.

FFS, it's fan service, just own it. It isn't there for some vital plot reason - in fact if it didn't occur the outcome of the film would be exactly the same.

 

[Johnny Richards]

Did you sleep through the part where she slaughters 90% of the sorcerors of Kamar Taj, and whoops Strange and Wong ? Or maybe you dozed off in Endgame when she nearly took out Thanos one on one.

None of that compares to Wanda defeating Earth's Mightiest Heroes and killing them in doing so. The Illuminati defeated and killed Thanos. The fact that Wanda was able to single-handedly kill them speaks VOLUMES to the level of power she's reached here. 616 Wanda couldn't kill 616 Thanos. 616 Scarlet Witch actually could.