To each their own.
But as it stands, he is
too lost, which is not Bruce Wayne's character at all. They didn't have to have the "bedside vow" scene.... Burton didn't do that. But his Wayne still gives off the right vibe. Keaton's Bruce feels strong. Like he knew what he wanted to do, and this is the life he'd decided on long ago.
Well again, I think this is a case of Burton's movie not being an origin film. We have no idea what Bruce went through to get to the point he's at.
Thinking about the vow and all that stuff reminds me, though I know you don't love the movie, didn't you dig the scene in
Begins were the bats surround Bruce? I thought it was a brilliant scene, and I actually found it to be a dramatic improvement on the classic "bat through the window" scene. It was like a baptism or something; Bruce standing there, accepting and realizing his destiny. It was a beautiful moment, for me.
I agree. I just don't think what Nolan did enriches it. He went far enough that it detracts from it, IMO.
Agree to disagree. I enjoyed the growth he showed, and found no problems with it, considering I think that the place he ended up in was very Batman. He may have not been classically Batman-like (to you, at least) from the moment of his parents' deaths, but I think he certainly reached it by the end of the movie.
Agreed. But I don't think the other versions are entirely without that. Look at the Jason Todd affair, the end of Mask of the Phantasm, the end of Batman Forever (He realized that he he was wrong to assume his parents' death was his fault, and he can be both Batman and Bruce), and especially the end of Batman Returns, where, although we're not told it, it's clear that he realizes he couldn't save Selina, and perhaps that he was wrong to try to latch onto her for salvation himself.
I'd like to bring up a point that always bugged me about MOTP. I LOVE the movie, and I love Timm & Dini's work overall (BTAS is probably my favorite show of all time, no exaggeration), but something about it never sat right with me. I loved the internal struggle of Bruce dealing with loving Andrea while trying to fulfill his vow, but I hate the way its played out. If Andrea would've married him, he would have
never become Batman. He was that ready to give it up. It was only her departure that pushed him into it. I would've prefered him make the tough decision to push her away, unable to turn his back on the vow. But I guess then we wouldn't have had the movie, would we?
Burton's Batman has the added touch: Social Anxiety Disorder. That's a fantastic, realistic touch. He's nervous in large crowds, but suave to Vicki or Selina because it's more interpersonal than being large scale. The public playboy wasn't there (A fault of Burton's), but he made Bruce so strong emotionally and psychologically, that I forgive it, and that's the Bruce Wayne I would be if I had become Batman. I'd be the reclusive introvert.
While I love Keaton's performance on its own, his awkwardness is about as distracting a change of character for me as Bale's early "lost traveller" moments are for you. If we're talking a Batman/Bruce that's "average", it's certainly Keaton's. At times he reminded me more of Spider-Man than Batman, in that he was often socially awkward out of costume and seemed to gain confidance and power through being in the suit (a specific example would be the scene in which he's trying to tell Vicki that he's Batman. Great scene, Keaton is hysterical and so likeable, but I get to thinking "This guy is Batman??") I'm sure that's what Burton was going for, but I don't know if it entirely works for me.
Plus, I've never been a fan of the Bruce Wayne that shames the family name. I wouldn't be able to do that, if it were me. I wouldn't have the heart, or the lack thereof. I love the 70s/80s Wayne, who people considered a strong man. He didn't resort to making an ass of himself or the family memory to disguise his identity.
I agree. I enjoy the public fop Wayne, but only in reasonable situations. It made for a funny scene, but the drunken act that Bruce puts on to get rid of the houseguests seemed incredibly unnecessary. There were definitely other ways of getting people out of the house; it smacked to me of Goyer just wanting to shoehorn in that playboy buffoon angle.
I disagree. Don't forget what Keaton's Wayne said to Vicki Vale:
"Look, sometimes, I don't know what to think of all this.... it's just something I have to do."
"Why?"
"Because nobody else can."
He's talking, of course, about saving the city from itself, and Naiper, among other things. With Keaton, I admit it came off more like a psychotic reaction, that he HAD to save the city or he'd go insane, but I see nothing wrong with that. He had that burning drive to save his city. Nolan just adds more layers to it to really make sure you get it. Too much effort, I think.
I'll never forget that quote; it's definitely one of my favorite parts of the film.
But I think what keeps coming back to me is how I feel about Nolan's Gotham as a whole. I found the city to be more alive than Burton's; I got a better sense of who the people are and why Batman is even interested in "saving" them. I felt a closer connection between Bruce and his city.
I'm enjoying the discussion, Paste! You're a great conversationalist!
Likewise!
