BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 1

[Tobias]

For the record, Tobias, even if you got your standalone MOS sequel, you were already starting. "This is what needs change. This is what needs to be done. This is my letter to WB, etc etc." The groundwork was being laid already to hate on Snyder and MOS2 as a standalone. We didn't see you for weeks after Superman/Batman was announced. You regrouped. Now, already looking ahead if WF bombs, you're blaming Superman.

I hope everybody can see right through this dudes posts as much as I do.

So you don't think needs to change?

You are cool with editing in WF as there was in MOS?

Or characterizations at the same undeveloped level?

Or a summer 2015 release between AV2 and SW?

WF or whatever they call it had best perform well as the whole DCU is riding on it. Not just JL but stand-alone Flash and WW and the rest.

Snyder and team need to step up their game as they will going up against tougher competition that WWZ and MU.

 

[Loki882]

Tobias keeps claiming that MOS underperformed to WB's expectations, but I've seen no evidence of that. In fact, I've heard that WB is very happy with the film.

 

[Tra-El]

So you don't think needs to change?

You are cool with editing in WF as there was in MOS?

Or characterizations at the same undeveloped level?

Or a summer 2015 release between AV2 and SW?

WF or whatever they call it had best perform well as the whole DCU is riding on it. Not just JL but stand-alone Flash and WW and the rest.

Snyder and team need to step up their game as they will going up against tougher competition that WWZ and MU.

Man of Steel is what it is dude. The team told their story and we got what we got. No movie is treated the same. Different elements will be explored. A different story will be told. They WON'T go through the motions. Superman/Batman is the damn GAMECHANGER.

You say "Snyder better step up his game OR ELSE" but what you're failing to realize, is what brought on a World's Finest? What success's FINALLY brought Superman/Batman on the big screen, which was in the works since the early 2000's? What did it?

Man of Steel.

But go ahead, diminish its success. When WF does well, it will be "Snyder and Goyer better step up their game in JL to give us JL2." No doubt about it.

 

[EssayM]

Tobias keeps claiming that MOS underperformed to WB's expectations, but I've seen no evidence of that. In fact, I've heard that WB is very happy with the film.

Most of it is conjecture, I guess. Its BO seems to have been dropping every week since that big opening weekend, and there's of course the incredibly divided reception from both critics and fans, so the film's "success" seems to have a less impressive follow-up story. Combine that with some of the comments from Snyder and rumors that the team-up wasn't even known to him and Goyer before Comic Con, and the addition of Batman does start to seem like a bit of a desperate move on WB's part.

 

[Migu-EL]

Before Tobias said that WB would be happy with $600 WW and that would give MOS a sequel. Now all of a sudden WB was expecting $1 billion and are so dissapointed in MOS only getting around $650. Hmmmmm.... lol.

 

[Tra-El]

the comments from Snyder and rumors that the team-up wasn't even known to him and Goyer before Comic Con, and the addition of Batman does start to seem like a bit of a desperate move on WB's part.

Rumors are a powerful thing, so lets take everything you read on the internet as face value and truth. Not sure how the addition of Batman came as a surprise to anybody. In fact, it was Zack Snyder's idea to include "Wayne Enterprise's" on the satellite and not a LexCorp logo. It should come to nobodies surprise that Batman is going to exist in Superman's world and start-off the cross-over. Seems like the intention all along with countless numbers of Easter Eggs in MOS. I hate that everybody is now surprised that this cross-over is happening. It's been in the works since the early decade. WB wanted to make this happen for so long. Now with the success of MOS and Snyder claiming Batman exists in this world even before the release of MOS (amongst others), it's time to do it. Yet, people are shocked, lawls.

 

[Tobias]

Before Tobias said that WB would be happy with $600 WW and that would give MOS a sequel. Now all of a sudden WB was expecting $1 billion and are so dissapointed in MOS only getting around $650. Hmmmmm.... lol.

Robinov is the one who said 1 billion - actually 1 billion plus. No one will know how wide that expectation was at the studio.

Before the release a few here claimed WB was expecting TDKR numbers. One or two claimed "connections" at WB. Those claims seemed crazy to me and I assumed 600 million plus was good enough for a stand-alone sequel. Apparently not - Robinov's comments indicate some at WB were indeed expecting TDKR numbers. Crazy I know and why Robinov thought that is beyond me.

 

[dnno1]

I don't think there should be pressure placed on the Snyder/Goyer/Nolan team since the merging of the two franchises has made things very easy for the team to perform. MoS2: Superman-Batman has things that fans of both respective franchises like and the brand recognition that non-fans will take notice. The only thing that would make this bad is if there was an Act of Congress banning the film.

 

[Tra-El]

Robinov is the one who said 1 billion - actually 1 billion plus. No one will know how wide that expectation was at the studio.

Before the release a few here claimed WB was expecting TDKR numbers. One or two claimed "connections" at WB. Those claims seemed crazy to me and I assumed 600 million plus was good enough for a stand-alone sequel. Apparently not - Robinov's comments indicate some at WB were indeed expecting TDKR numbers. Crazy I know and why Robinov thought that is beyond me.

Man of Steel had SO MUCH working against it that it wasn't even funny (up until what? Trailer #3 a month prior?) Even with the great Trailer #2, people were still suspicious. "Where is Superman's red trunks? Why is it dark? It looks like Batman Begins. This isn't Superman! Not enough action!" Blahblahblah.

All that, and not to be outdone by the audience being turned off by Superman Returns back in '06, it was facing an uphill battle. Yahoo.com, at one point, ranked MOS as their LEAST movie they were excited to see on their list. Yet, somehow this was supposed to be a billion dollar movie? Gimmie a break, those #'s weren't possible.

That all changed with trailer #2 and #3. At first, MOS was to be a laugh because it's Superman facing an uphill battle. I think MOS and the anticipation and the numbers it pulled is a great success in the face of its OWN adversity (darker Superman, non-traditional suite, Zack Snyder, etc.)

Don't act like MOS was always going to be the "billion dollar franchise/reboot" as predicted by a person within WB who was probably just "selling" the film to begin with.

MOS had a lot going against it than going for it. The numbers it brought in are about as respectful as a reboot can get. It's the fans that put this movies performance on the pedestal.

All WB wanted from it was the numbers to let them decide if a JL/crossovers were possible. It succeeded.

 

[Marvin]

The only official word I heard on behalf of WB's expecations were their opening release numbers, in the high 70's I believe.

As for how the film has done, it's so far doing better domestically than ASM and better intl than Ironman. Last I checked outside of spidey one those two are the highest franchise openers around. And like I said, so far.

An opening record could be used against the film, for anyone that wants to continue to ignore the full circumstances of the following weeks. DM2 is included in that.

Every Snyder/Cavill interview about crossovers I saw was about JLA, and almost all their answers were almost always along the lines of there needs to be building first, grounded building and that superman is at the top and the rest trickle down. Now people can twist that whichever way their agenda demands but I'm pretty sure the only thing to be taken away from that is no to jla in 2015

 

[Tra-El]

The only official word I heard on behalf of WB's expecations were their opening release numbers, in the high 70's I believe.

As for how the film has done, it's so far doing better domestically than ASM and better intl than Ironman. Last I checked outside of spidey one those two are the highest franchise openers around. And like I said, so far.

An opening record could be used against the film, for anyone that wants to continue to ignore the full circumstances of the following weeks. DM2 is included in that.

Every Snyder/Cavill interview about crossovers I saw was about JLA, and almost all their answers were almost always along the lines of there needs to be building first, grounded building and that superman is at the top and the rest trickle down. Now people can twist that whichever way their agenda demands but I'm pretty sure the only thing to be taken away from that is no to jla in 2015

Good post. Reading your posts, I'm on the same page with you, Marvin.

 

[dnno1]

Robinov is the one who said 1 billion - actually 1 billion plus. No one will know how wide that expectation was at the studio.

Before the release a few here claimed WB was expecting TDKR numbers. One or two claimed "connections" at WB. Those claims seemed crazy to me and I assumed 600 million plus was good enough for a stand-alone sequel. Apparently not - Robinov's comments indicate some at WB were indeed expecting TDKR numbers. Crazy I know and why Robinov thought that is beyond me.

He was leaving the company (as it turned out, a disgruntled employee). He really had no credibility. The truth of the matter is that if the film did not meet expectations, we would not be talking about a sequel staring Henry Cavil and Co. let alone paring Superman with Batman. We would actually be talking about the next Batman film and how that would be launching the new Cinematic Universe. Look, Diane Nelson, the head of DC Entertainment admitted to the success of "Man of Steel". Furthermore, this piece says that "Man of Steel" along with projects like "The Great Gatsby", and cable programs like HBO's "Game of Thrones" help fuel Time Warner's second quarter earnings. How could that be if it wasn't successful?

 

[EssayM]

Rumors are a powerful thing, so lets take everything you read on the internet as face value and truth. Not sure how the addition of Batman came as a surprise to anybody. In fact, it was Zack Snyder's idea to include "Wayne Enterprise's" on the satellite and not a LexCorp logo. It should come to nobodies surprise that Batman is going to exist in Superman's world and start-off the cross-over. Seems like the intention all along with countless numbers of Easter Eggs in MOS. I hate that everybody is now surprised that this cross-over is happening. It's been in the works since the early decade. WB wanted to make this happen for so long. Now with the success of MOS and Snyder claiming Batman exists in this world even before the release of MOS (amongst others), it's time to do it. Yet, people are shocked, lawls.

I never said they were facts, I just acknowledged that I had heard them, and even specified that they were JUST rumors. And anyway, there's enough that Snyder himself has reportedly said to raise some questions about the project.

A lot of projects have been "in the works since the early decade", usually by completely different people. In this case, you might be referring to the planned Batman vs. Superman film that almost happened in the early 2000s. You know, the one that didn't involve Nolan, Snyder, Goyer, or anyone sid to be working on the current film? I wouldn't call that "years in the making".

As for the WE easter egg, all that means is that they were hoping to bring Batman in for a future film. That doesn't mean they were already thinking "Next film is World's Finest! Yeehaw!!" Hell, with the way they were building it up, they probably expected a good long franchise with which to introduce other characters.

 

[Tra-El]

THR: How do you value the fan community's opinions?

Nelson: I think it's incredibly important to know it, be in touch with it, respect it. That said, I don't believe we should take fan feedback into the direct creative process. I am a believer that what Warner Bros. does, what DC Entertainment does, is to be in the business of creating professional storytelling. There's a craft to it, honed by storytellers across each medium. And we have to trust them and give them freedom and latitude. You can't do it by committee. And you would be paralyzed if you tried to take in the feedback we get every day from fans that care desperately. On one hand it matters, and I'm always conscious of it, but you have to consciously turn it off because it will cripple the creative process.

Tobias's reply from WB revealed, lol. From her own mouth, they are very pleased with MOS, so lets take THAT as a lie and trust in reading between the lines in what one statement was left to be interpreted as truth.

 

[Tra-El]

A lot of projects have been "in the works since the early decade", usually by completely different people. In this case, you might be referring to the planned Batman vs. Superman film that almost happened in the early 2000s. You know, the one that didn't involve Nolan, Snyder, Goyer, or anyone sid to be working on the current film? I wouldn't call that "years in the making".

My point was that the studio has been trying for a very, very longtime to find an excuse to make this film work and happen but it always stalled and burnt out for some odd reasoning. Now with Marvel breaking the ice with their cross-over franchise's and the success of Man of Steel and the ending to Nolan's Bat franchise, they feel this was the perfect time to finally get the chance to do a Superman/Batman before it was too late. Though the before plans in the earlier decade didn't involve Nolan and co., WB always wanted to find the excuse to get this possibility as a reality. MOS was that possibility.

As for the WE easter egg, all that means is that they were hoping to bring Batman in for a future film.

Exactly.

That doesn't mean they were already thinking "Next film is World's Finest! Yeehaw!!"

Maybe not, but as Marvin pointed out, before the release of MOS, Cavill and Snyder shot down the works of a Justice League film coming next in installment and that was that.

But, they were WIDELY talkative and chippy about Batman. In May, Cavill even made a point to go on about how awesome a Worlds Finest teammup would be if givin' a greenlight and Snyder pulled no punch's into revealing the Batman Easter Egg in an interview, all but confirming the Wayne Enterprise's logo before Man of Steel's release.

It just sounds to me like WB was banking on involving Superman/Batman one way or another givin' how MOS performed and givin' how Cavill shot down JL rumors, but was so open and talkative about Batman. Even a day before the SDCC announcement, Cavill was on the carpet and was asked about a Superman/Batman and he acknowledged, with a smile, how he'd be onboard.

The writing was there for a World's Finest all along, before MOS's release as well.

 

[Superman Earth1]

My point was that the studio has been trying for a very, very longtime to find an excuse to make this film work and happen but it always stalled and burnt out for some odd reasoning. Now with Marvel breaking the ice with their cross-over franchise's and the success of Man of Steel and the ending to Nolan's Bat franchise, they feel this was the perfect time to finally get the chance to do a Superman/Batman before it was too late. Though the before plans in the earlier decade didn't involve Nolan and co., WB always wanted to find the excuse to get this possibility as a reality. MOS was that possibility.


.

That's where you're wrong. One of the first drafts of the Justice League movie and the plot point was to bring Nolans Batman and Singer's Superman together. Nolan however said no to this. However that was the plan at the time. When he said no the studio went in another direction which resulted in Justice League Mortal.

 

[Tempest]

I only have three things I am dreading in the film:

1. Batman is better than Superman at all things
2. A love triangle
3. Fanboy whining

 

[dnno1]

I only have three things I am dreading in the film:

1. Batman is better than Superman at all things
2. A love triangle
3. Fanboy whining

I don't think 1 is considered grounded. Now the fact that Batman is rich and can get most things he wants and that Clark Kent is a farm boy making a news reporter's salary is an interesting contrast that should be exploited in this film. I don't mind seeing a love triangle and fanboy whining is a given anyways.

 

[Krumm]

I only have three things I am dreading in the film:

1. Batman is better than Superman at all things

Are you afraid this is going to happen and shouldn't?

Or are you dreading their team up because Batman is superior and there is no point (not my personal opinion)?

 

[Tra-El]

That's where you're wrong.

I didn't know that. I was just responding to EssayM, who said above "You know, the one that didn't involve Nolan, Snyder, Goyer, or anyone sid to be working on the current film? I wouldn't call that "years in the making" ; so what you just said proves my point further in how WB was trying forever to get Superman/Batman on the bigscreen.

One of the first drafts of the Justice League movie and the plot point was to bring Nolans Batman and Singer's Superman together. Nolan however said no to this.

Thank CHRIST.

However that was the plan at the time.

Yeah, so WB was trying and trying and trying to get a Worlds Finest but like I said, someway, somehow, plans fell through. Man of Steel was FINALLY the perfect time to do it and they jumped on it quicker than ever at SDCC (where WB NEVER release's huge plans..)

 

[Tobias]

I think the uncertainty over the future of the Superman film franchise is what drives threads like this and is causing some of the division among fanboys.

Many were expecting a stand-alone sequel to MOS - if not a trilogy of Superman films.

Fans want a WF and a JL franchise but many want a Superman franchise too.

The question is where is the stand-alone Superman franchise now - a fear being that after WF they do JL to launch Flash, WW, GL in stand-alones. Using Superman in team-up films, but maybe not doing a stand-alone Superman again. At least not for a good while until Batman is re-established and several other DC characters also get launched into solo franchises.

It would be nice to see Snyder or WB talk about their vision/plans for Superman going forward. Will he only be used in team-up films or is another stand-alone a possibility?

Having a answer to this is better than having no idea about where the franchise stands now.

 

[Krumm]

I think the uncertainty over the future of the Superman film franchise is what drives threads like this and is causing some of the division among fanboys.

Many were expecting a stand-alone sequel to MOS - if not a trilogy of Superman films.

Fans want a WF and a JL franchise but many want a Superman franchise too.

The question is where is the stand-alone Superman franchise now - a fear being that after WF they do JL to launch Flash, WW, GL in stand-alones. Using Superman in team-up films, but maybe not doing a stand-alone Superman again. At least not for a good while until Batman is re-established and several other DC characters also get launched into solo franchises.

It would be nice to see Snyder or WB talk about their vision/plans for Superman going forward. Will he only be used in team-up films or is another stand-alone a possibility?

Having a answer to this is better than having no idea about where the franchise stands.

I feel like MOS ended with more stories to tell. If it hadn't then I'd be more pumped for this as opposed to lukewarm as I am now.

 

[Tra-El]

I think the uncertainty over the future of the Superman film franchise is what drives threads like this and is causing some of the division among fanboys.

Many were expecting a stand-alone sequel to MOS - if not a trilogy of Superman films.

Fans want a WF and a JL franchise but many want a Superman franchise too.

The question is where is the stand-alone Superman franchise now - a fear being that after WF they do JL to launch Flash, WW, GL in stand-alones. Using Superman in team-up films, but maybe not doing a stand-alone Superman again. At least not for a good while until Batman is re-established and several other DC characters also get launched into solo franchises.

It would be nice to see Snyder or WB talk about their vision/plans for Superman going forward. Will he only be used in team-up films or is another stand-alone a possibility?

Having a answer to this is better than having no idea about where the franchise stands.

This is one of your best posts I've seen. I agree with mostly all of it (besides the fact in I don't see how you're coming to the conclusion that Batman will come out of all of this with a solo-franchise, but Superman won't; there's still the possibility that both will get a solo movie after WF, regardless of when that may be. Besides, Superman and Batman are DC/WB's bread and butter, you can't just have them in one film together and only allow one to go off and have a solo film franchise while the other doesn't. If anything, they are both equally as important as each other moving forward.)

Other than that, I agree. I hope sometime in the near future, we can get clearer answers rather than talking in cryptic language where fans seem to be at each others throats. I believe at the moment, they are just insanely busy and having many sleepless nights casting this new Batman. After Batman is revealed and the title of MOS2 is released, I'm sure we'll get more clarification, or atleast I hope so.

 

[kguillou]

I think the uncertainty over the future of the Superman film franchise is what drives threads like this and is causing some of the division among fanboys.

Many were expecting a stand-alone sequel to MOS - if not a trilogy of Superman films.

Fans want a WF and a JL franchise but many want a Superman franchise too.

The question is where is the stand-alone Superman franchise now - a fear being that after WF they do JL to launch Flash, WW, GL in stand-alones. Using Superman in team-up films, but maybe not doing a stand-alone Superman again. At least not for a good while until Batman is re-established and several other DC characters also get launched into solo franchises.

It would be nice to see Snyder or WB talk about their vision/plans for Superman going forward. Will he only be used in team-up films or is another stand-alone a possibility?

Having a answer to this is better than having no idea about where the franchise stands now.

See, I dont know if anyone else feels this way but I kind of felt like MoS could have been a standalone film. I mean, yes, there were definitely threads to pick up on and follow through with, but on a whole this very much felt like its own epic. I think snyder and Goyer made this film with the thought that this could potentially be their only shot. This is very different from the marvel movies which all felt like pieces to a larger puzzle instead of their own standalone epic films. This is why I'm cool with this team up happening.

 

[Tobias]

This is one of your best posts I've seen. I agree with mostly all of it (besides the fact in I don't see how you're coming to the conclusion that Batman will come out of all of this with a solo-franchise, but Superman won't; there's still the possibility that both will get a solo movie after WF, regardless of when that may be. Besides, Superman and Batman are DC/WB's bread and butter, you can't just have them in one film together and only allow one to go off and have a solo film franchise while the other doesn't. If anything, they are both equally as important as each other moving forward.)

Other than that, I agree. I hope sometime in the near future, we can get clearer answers rather than talking in cryptic language where fans seem to be at each others throats. I believe at the moment, they are just insanely busy and having many sleepless nights casting this new Batman. After Batman is revealed and the title of MOS2 is released, I'm sure we'll get more clarification, or atleast I hope so.

I hope you are correct and Snyder or WB specifically address where they want to take Superman in their universe.

The uncertainty causes a lot of the fan fights. Simply because things that come out can and do seem contradictory at times. One does not know what to believe.

One question I'd have is Cavill's future after JL. He is optioned for just 3 films in which he plays Superman. What happens then? WB could contract for more films with him but if a stand-alone Superman is not in the cards in the near future what would he do?

Many seemed to really like the Adams/Cavill chemistry. Will that be developed further? It really can't in a JL film and even in WF it may take a backseat. You really need a stand-alone to do justice to Lois and Clark.

You get the idea. A little reassurance that Superman isn't being bumped to the backburner after JL would be nice and calm things down a bit with fanboys.