BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 2

[Persistence]

Indeed, but like anything else, there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it.

The right way would be the preachy exposition given to Neo in The Matrix.

Needless to say, MoS is an excellent example of the wrong way.

I think it was good in The Matrix mostly because it was a sci-fi mystery thriller. We're learning who Neo is along with him. I hope that isn't the case with Superman...although there really isn't much room to do otherwise. I don't really want to see general public or Batman lecturing Superman, but since he didn't have a father figure who wanted him to stand out in the sun, not much we can do about it at this point.

 

[-Arya-]

Man, a lot of arguing in this thread, so I'll guess I'll explain my thought process about the movie:

First of all, I enjoyed Man of Steel. Yes, it is flawed and there are a few problems I have with the film, mostly with Goyer's writing and the fact that they completely handwaved the aftermath of the Battle of Metropolis for the "He's so hot" scene. Still, I thought it was a nice start for the Superman movies.

When they announced Batman vs. Superman, I was a uneasy over the prospect of having a a Man of Steel "sequel" have Batman, especially when Snyder announced it with a quote from The Dark Knight Returns, a graphic novel I feel is one of the most misunderstood stories in history of comics, and also painted Superman in a very negative light.

I also did not like that David Goyer was coming back as main writer, as I feel he is a writer is good ideas, but often poorly executes though ideas with cheesy, heavy handed dialogue and story plots points that are not thought out well enough (The whole third act of Man of Steel is an example).

Another issues I had wasn't the number of heroes in this movie (for all we know most of the heroes announced could be one scene wonders), but just one casting: Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman. I'm not gonna make a absolute conclusions, because hell, she could knock it out the park but until I see at least a trailer or something more substantial with her as Diana I'm just not excited at the prospect of her as Wonder Woman nor do I see why anyone else is excited, to be honest. But if you are excited, be my guest. It's just my opinion, and your opinion about her is fine too.

I feel like a few of my other issues have been alleviated too. Chris Terrio is rewriting Goyer's script, which is a very good thing as a Terrio's an Oscar Winning Screenwriter who help better execute Goyer's ideas, as coming up ideas is Goyer's best attribute. I always felt what Snyder always needed was a smart, skilled screenwriter to work with.

My other issues with The Dark Knight Returns being an inspiration has been alleviated also with Snyder coming out and saying it won't be an adaptation and he won't be using that version of Superman, which makes me think he's only using that elements of the TDKR version of Batman, which is something I can deal with.

Right now, my mentality went from annoyed about the preproduction of this movie to cautiously optimistic that Snyder can make something great out of this. I look forward to seeing a trailer or more footage eventually.

You've summarized my exact thoughts on this project

 

[zryson]

Rumor of Snyder getting hyped at a meeting with visual effects team and taking shot at limitations of Avengers heroes.

“ I want jaws to f***ing drop. It’s time to shake up the balance of realism, and add a bit of wow factor. People are paying money to see these super powered beings in all their glory. It has to look awesome, better than anything they have ever seen in any superhero movie. Look at the competition (Avengers), we will have characters doing things that they can’t do. It’s gotta be shown and blow people away…”

What would be nice to see is solid characterization and growth in BvS. Sure FX/spectacle can play a role too, but considering BvS wont bow in theaters until well after the next Avengers and Star Wars films, the FX they have planned for BvS might seem dated by the time the movie rolls into theaters.

 

[MrsKent26]

It's actually the other way around, bud.

People who have negative things to say have been chased out of these forums since the beginning. Here we have the one thread that's predicated on negative sentiment, and there are still zealous sycophants in here trying to silence anyone who isn't also a slavishly devoted fan.

Nobody is saying that liking the movie and voicing that is prohibited, what some of us are saying, however, is that people like you need to stop derailing this thread by silencing the very people it attracts. Chatter about how awesome MoS is all you want; I'm sure we all welcome it so we can have a discussion, but some of us are tired of being told that we're trolls for thinking otherwise. It puzzles me that so many of you would prefer to have a dogmatic, one-sided debate rather than a healthy, enlightening, and mature discussion between people on opposite sides of the fence.

Considering that I've seen you in this thread a few times making occasionally lengthy and frequently impassioned posts on this subject, I'm deducing that it's a significant issue for you. I'm sure you have been labelled a malcontent by some and goaded at their discretion. I believe this would be frustrating and can see why you want to voice your concerns here. Nonetheless, calling others "zealous sycophants" and "slavishly devoted" is of the same flavour that you find so bitter. It doesn't really help your case and your case needs no aid because most folks would probably admit that rudeness and intolerance of anyone contrarian to the given status quo occurs on this forum. I think most, if not all, of us have experienced it in some capacity and firing back with names like that just perpetuates the cycle.

I'd also like to say that if you want to discuss something here, I invite you to try it. Yes, you might get some unwelcome retorts, but you also might get that discussion you want. I liked mos overall, but on occasion do discuss its short comings with polite folks or counter their position. Now, I am human and I'll admit that sometimes I get tired of listening to people complain, but on these days, I just stay out of such discussions. I don't usually respond to dramatic bash sessions either (if people want to say mos ruined their childhood, my response is the proverbial slow back away), but I'm fine with reasoned and calm critiques. So, there's one person who will talk to you about this and I gather there is more. I hope this didn't come out condescending and motherly (if it did, I apologize), but I just thought you might find this advice useful. If you want to discuss something, go for it. If someone tries to silence it, too bad. There's no need to call them anything or leave because you know you aren't doing anything wrong.

 

[DA_Champion]

Considering that I've seen you in this thread a few times making occasionally lengthy and frequently impassioned posts on this subject, I'm deducing that it's a significant issue for you. I'm sure you have been labelled a malcontent by some and goaded at their discretion. I believe this would be frustrating and can see why you want to voice your concerns here. Nonetheless, calling others "zealous sycophants" and "slavishly devoted" is of the same flavour that you find so bitter. It doesn't really help your case and your case needs no aid because most folks would probably admit that rudeness and intolerance of anyone contrarian to the given status quo occurs on this forum. I think most, if not all, of us have experienced it in some capacity and firing back with names like that just perpetuates the cycle.

I'd also like to say that if you want to discuss something here, I invite you to try it. Yes, you might get some unwelcome retorts, but you also might get that discussion you want. I liked mos overall, but on occasion do discuss its short comings with polite folks or counter their position. Now, I am human and I'll admit that sometimes I get tired of listening to people complain, but on these days, I just stay out of such discussions. I don't usually respond to dramatic bash sessions either (if people want to say mos ruined their childhood, my response is the proverbial slow back away), but I'm fine with reasoned and calm critiques. So, there's one person who will talk to you about this and I gather there is more. I hope this didn't come out condescending and motherly (if it did, I apologize), but I just thought you might find this advice useful. If you want to discuss something, go for it. If someone tries to silence it, too bad. There's no need to call them anything or leave because you know you aren't doing anything wrong.

"Like".

 

[Reiter]

Unless Superman is portrayed as a moron, he will inevitably display some emotions other than wide-eyed, happy-clappy optimism.

That would be a nice change from MoS. t:

 

[Guts]

That would be a nice change from MoS. t:

I'm not so sure that audiences would like a happy go lucky superman after the events of man of steel.

 

[Reiter]

Btw, i dont think it's off topic to bash MoS. If we were talking about TDK coming up and our fears about it, dont you think that someone would have more worries if he didnt like Begins? Therefore, maybe not by directly bashing it, but by explaining what MoS did wrong and how we fear for BvS doing the same mistakes is on topic.

Here's something non-MoS related from me:
I dont like TDKReturns as canon (as elseworlds its fine), and i dont like how Snyder is trying to get away with adapting as much of it as he can while making BvS. You are starting your Justice League universe and adapting TDKR Batman. It's like adapting Batman Beyong and using Superman from Birthright.

So yeah, i'm kind of worried about this, about the *****ebag batman we'll get, whether he'll have visions of giant bat monsters, etc.

I'm not so sure that audiences would like a happy go lucky superman after the events of man of steel.

I only put "optimism" and not "happy go lucky" in bold. Optimism should be fine.

 

[Guts]

I only put "optimism" and not "happy go lucky" in bold. Optimism should be fine.

Well then I agree with you.

 

[hafizbat]

Yeah I also don't get why they'd use an old, grizzled Batman for the origin of Justice League. Especially with a green Superman...it just doesn't make sense to me.

Seems like Snyder couldn't contain his desire to bring TDKR to life, which is why he didn't go with a young, prime Batman which would've been much more fitting.

Now Batman is always going to be the old man of the group.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Considering that I've seen you in this thread a few times making occasionally lengthy and frequently impassioned posts on this subject, I'm deducing that it's a significant issue for you. I'm sure you have been labelled a malcontent by some and goaded at their discretion. I believe this would be frustrating and can see why you want to voice your concerns here. Nonetheless, calling others "zealous sycophants" and "slavishly devoted" is of the same flavour that you find so bitter. It doesn't really help your case and your case needs no aid because most folks would probably admit that rudeness and intolerance of anyone contrarian to the given status quo occurs on this forum. I think most, if not all, of us have experienced it in some capacity and firing back with names like that just perpetuates the cycle.

I'd also like to say that if you want to discuss something here, I invite you to try it. Yes, you might get some unwelcome retorts, but you also might get that discussion you want. I liked mos overall, but on occasion do discuss its short comings with polite folks or counter their position. Now, I am human and I'll admit that sometimes I get tired of listening to people complain, but on these days, I just stay out of such discussions. I don't usually respond to dramatic bash sessions either (if people want to say mos ruined their childhood, my response is the proverbial slow back away), but I'm fine with reasoned and calm critiques. So, there's one person who will talk to you about this and I gather there is more. I hope this didn't come out condescending and motherly (if it did, I apologize), but I just thought you might find this advice useful. If you want to discuss something, go for it. If someone tries to silence it, too bad. There's no need to call them anything or leave because you know you aren't doing anything wrong.

But anyway, I think discussing MoS is key to this topic because it is the only DCCU movie we've seen and therefore is the only taste of things to come we've witnessed. Of course MoS, both good and bad are going to be talked about because that's one of the possible reasons there are people who feel uneasy about BvS.

This is in general, but attacking people won't get your point across on these forums nor are talking down to posters as your opinion is better than others. Sometimes you have to accept that other people will have different opinions that won't change and the best thing you can do is present your side as best as you can.

 

[zryson]

Yeah I also don't get why they'd use an old, grizzled Batman for the origin of Justice League. Especially with a green Superman...it just doesn't make sense to me.

Seems like Snyder couldn't contain his desire to bring TDKR to life, which is why he didn't go with a young, prime Batman which would've been much more fitting.

Now Batman is always going to be the old man of the group.

I think its because had they gone with a younger Batman, it would have invited more comparison to the Nolan-Batman universe. And I think they know they would come off looking poorer for the comparison, so they are clearly trying to distance themselves from the Batman seen in that universe.

 

[MrsKent26]

But anyway, I think discussing MoS is key to this topic because it is the only DCCU movie we've seen and therefore is the only taste of things to come we've witnessed. Of course MoS, both good and bad are going to be talked about because that's one of the possible reasons there are people who feel uneasy about BvS.

Discussing mos is absolutely on topic and I've yet to see a convincing argument to counter that. As you said, it's all we have so far. It's the gateway to this universe and for some, that gate is more foreboding than triumphant.

Here's something non-MoS related from me:
I dont like TDKReturns as canon (as elseworlds its fine), and i dont like how Snyder is trying to get away with adapting as much of it as he can while making BvS. You are starting your Justice League universe and adapting TDKR Batman. It's like adapting Batman Beyong and using Superman from Birthright.

So yeah, i'm kind of worried about this, about the *****ebag batman we'll get, whether he'll have visions of giant bat monsters, etc.

I worry about that too. I don't want to see batman and superman as some exaggerated and dystopian versions of themselves. I'm expecting some strife and perhaps disastrous misunderstandings, but want to see them rise from that. That whole past their prime/former greats descending downward thing doesn't exactly herald in JL.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Is BatFleck actually SO much older and grizzled than BaleBats? Ben isn't a 57 year old man playing Batman. And I don't think we are personally going to get a TDKReturns characterization or world for the new DCCU. That's a hell of an assumption. If we get a trailer in a year an half that makes it seem so, well then I'm wrong and ya'll can take a bow. Still... Yeah, I don't see what others are seeing, mostly cuz we haven't seen much of ANYTHING as yet.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

As I pointed out in my earlier post, Zack Snyder denied that he was going to use that version of Superman, and denied he was going adapt Dark Knight Returns.

If you were going to do that, you would need a different Superman. We’re bringing Batman into the universe that now this Superman lives in.

He's going to be a veteran Batman, but not old man Batman.

 

[MrsKent26]

@ Krypton

It's just a slight worry of mine, not a prediction.

 

[I am Batman]

^ Lol, to be fair, so many movies/tv shows nowadays basically consist of the supporting cast telling the main character who they are or what they're supposed to do.

God I hate that. What I love about Batman and Superman is that they knew exactly what they wanted to do with their lives. I think this whole identity crisis thing is just some lame way to get the audience to "connect" with protagonist.

 

[Mandon Knight]

God I hate that. What I love about Batman and Superman is that they knew exactly what they wanted to do with their lives. I think this whole identity crisis thing is just some lame way to get the audience to "connect" with protagonist.

In short, destiny is why both men do what they are driven to achieve and one of the common ground areas between them, this, the orphan aspect, and the need for someone to understand their path is where the writers should be focusing to form a bond of trust between two apparently very different men, who at the core, are searching for something they will never re-capture singuarly but together and as a team can grasp, hold and endure.

 

[regwec]

Snyder didn't seem all too concerned with anything but long, drawn out gratuitous action in the last installment. I wouldn't be surprised if that hasn't changed with this next film.

There's evidently untrue, though it would be a fair assessment of the denouement. The crash-bangs were too protracted.

Is BatFleck actually SO much older and grizzled than BaleBats? Ben isn't a 57 year old man playing Batman.

As I pointed out in my earlier post, Zack Snyder denied that he was going to use that version of Superman, and denied he was going adapt Dark Knight Returns.

He's going to be a veteran Batman, but not old man Batman.

Some people just refuse to hear this. I suppose that is a consequence of having your emotional dial locked on "worst case scenario".

 

[hafizbat]

Is Geoff Johns involved with the DCCU? If so, that's even more reason for concern. I've been flipping through his Justice League book, in hopes that it might be better than the JL: War animated film that was based on it, but man, it downright sucks. Honestly, a 13 year old kid could've written a better story with better characterization and dialogue.

Someone like Bruce Timm or Paul Dini would've been a nice consultant.

Snyder+Goyer+Johns=Blech

 

[zryson]

Is Geoff Johns involved with the DCCU? If so, that's even more reason for concern. I've been flipping through his Justice League book, in hopes that it might be better than the JL: War animated film that was based on it, but man, it downright sucks. Honestly, a 13 year old kid could've written a better story with better characterization and dialogue.

Someone like Bruce Timm or Paul Dini would've been a nice consultant.

Snyder+Goyer+Johns=Blech

Yes Geoff Johns is involved. He will be executive producer on Batman v Superman. Just one of five involved for the movie.

 

[regwec]

Is Geoff Johns involved with the DCCU? If so, that's even more reason for concern. I've been flipping through his Justice League book, in hopes that it might be better than the JL: War animated film that was based on it, but man, it downright sucks. Honestly, a 13 year old kid could've written a better story with better characterization and dialogue.

Someone like Bruce Timm or Paul Dini would've been a nice consultant.

Snyder+Goyer+Johns=Blech

Johns' Justice League book is terrible, but to be fair he has written some good stuff in the past. In any case, whatever influence he has on this will be heavily diluted; imdb lists seven executive producers.

I agree that Dini would be the ideal mastermind for the whole cinematic DCU.

 

[jmc]

There's a demented part of me the really wants to see B v S be just as divisive as MoS was.

 

[DA_Champion]

Seven executive producers?

I hope they're not all getting paid 15 million like Jon Peters got for man if steel.

 

[zryson]

Seven executive producers?

I hope they're not all getting paid 15 million like Jon Peters got for man if steel.

I'm sure they will be well paid. Lots of money to splash around, after all.