BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

[Llama_Shepherd]

I know this isn't the place, but there were several reasons why the Allies shouldn't have dropped the bombs, or at least not when they did:

Japan considered surrender in early 1945 anyway
The US/UK firebomb campaign already killed almost 1 million and because of wooden cities destroyed as much as 96% of all buildings in Tokyo
The economic crippling of the country
The term "mokusatsu" which was issued as response to the Potsdam Declaration has two meanings one meaning essentially "no comment" and the other meaning "F You"
The bombing of nagasaki wasn't necessary at all.


But in any case, if faced with the same situation, locked in total war, society against society, with no-one surrendering and only you had the ability to launch nuclear weapons, wouldn't it be done again?

 

[TheNextNolan22]

I was perfectly fine with Superman's move at the end of MOS, I was surprised they how early they did it. I always thought it could've been saved for a finale in a trilogy/saga.

 

[Broseph44]

I was perfectly fine with Superman's move at the end of MOS, I was surprised they how early they did it. I always thought it could've been saved for a finale in a trilogy/saga.

People would still complain.

 

[Krumm]

I was perfectly fine with Superman's move at the end of MOS, I was surprised they how early they did it. I always thought it could've been saved for a finale in a trilogy/saga.

I would've had a problem if that's how the whole thing ended.

However, as it stands now, I'm a fan.

 

[Marvin]

I know this isn't the place, but there were several reasons why the Allies shouldn't have dropped the bombs, or at least not when they did:

Japan considered surrender in early 1945 anyway
The US/UK firebomb campaign already killed almost 1 million and because of wooden cities destroyed as much as 96% of all buildings in Tokyo
The economic crippling of the country
The term "mokusatsu" which was issued as response to the Potsdam Declaration has two meanings one meaning essentially "no comment" and the other meaning "F You"
The bombing of nagasaki wasn't necessary at all.


But in any case, if faced with the same situation, locked in total war, society against society, with no-one surrendering and only you had the ability to launch nuclear weapons, wouldn't it be done again?

A google search on " Dr. Yoshio Nishina" would argue the point further, that and the emperor god complex they had during that time. But you are right, there are better places for this discussion.
I'd say the first bomb's dropping is up for debate. I know where I stand but where the debate falls(two different things) is far and between.

In your scenario, it would be done again, however this time by a man of a different conviction. That alone makes a world of difference.

 

[floreairfoot]

You missed the point of what I was saying. I'm just making sure people are checking themselves before they carry on with their griping about the potential for an ethnic Selina.

I will always prefer a caucasian Selina Kyle/Catwoman, and nothing else. That's how she was designed and that's how she's remained.

What exactly is your definition of griping? I mean... we're on forums talking about a comic book movie. Why do you take such issue with other people's point of view?

How about a Saudi Prince/Billionare Batman/Bruce Wayne?

 

[Kane52630]

How about a Saudi Prince/Billionare Batman/Bruce Wayne?

I can dig it.

 

[Tempest]

I couldn't care less about the Catwoman conversation earlier since I doubt she will even be in the reboot, I was just responding to your Last Airbender comparison.

Ok. But the point still stands that people are being ridiculous about an ethnic Catwoman.

 

[floreairfoot]

I can dig it.

Yea, I think I just came up with a great idea for new member of the Bat-family!

 

[Malcolm Reynold]

Ok. But the point still stands that people are being ridiculous about an ethnic Catwoman.

Are they? I agree with what you said earlier, making an ethnic character white is more offensive than the other way around, but the point still stands that an actor should look like the character they are playing, unless they are the best actor for the part to the point where the performance is so good appearance doesn't matter, such as Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin.

 

[Tempest]

I will always prefer a caucasian Selina Kyle/Catwoman, and nothing else. That's how she was designed and that's how she's remained.

So? We have plenty of white characters running around the comics. Why does the potential for just one being ethnic bother you?

If Perry White's casting in MOS doesn't bother you, good. If you say "Well, it doesn't count because he's a minor character", then you're doing things wrong. Seriously.

If Selina had always been black, or Asian, or Hispanic, would you be annoyed by the idea of her being played by a white woman? If your answer is "No," or "Not as much", then you're doing things wrong.

What exactly is your definition of griping? I mean... we're on forums talking about a comic book movie. Why do you take such issue with other people's point of view?

Because I can, I suppose. But I especially take issue with the "OMG NOT A BLACK PERSON!!!! ANYTHING BUT THAT!!!" attitude about Selina.

How about a Saudi Prince/Billionare Batman/Bruce Wayne?

-shrug- Big deal. See how easy that is?

 

[Boy Scout]

Probably because how it makes/made him feel.

So if he were placed in that exact same situation again, he would refrain from doing what was necessary because of how it would make him feel? Not only would that make him look irresponsible, but it would do a great job of contradicting what they tried to get across in MOS.

Killing Zod was done deliberately by Superman because there was no other way to stop him. It was (presented as) the right thing to do. So if Superman's response after walking away from all of that was to never kill again, it would imply that killing Zod was actually the wrong thing to do. Logically speaking, what he should take away from it is, "Killing sucks, but if it has to be done, then it has to be done." And if you think that's appropriate for Superman, more power to you.

 

[Tempest]

Are they? I agree with what you said earlier, making an ethnic character white is more offensive than the other way around, but the point still stands that an actor should look like the character they are playing, unless they are the best actor for the part to the point where the performance is so good appearance doesn't matter, such as Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin.

I don't think it's the same thing at all, however. Getting offended on the behalf of an ethnic character, when there are so few of them to begin with, is one thing. To freak out, get upset, and argue over and over that a character should remain white is a little more awkward and uncomfortable.

And as I said, if all of these people are ones who agree that the white-washing in Hollywood is ridiculous and insulting, then good. My point was to draw the attention to the problem in the event of people not being aware of how insulting Hollywood, and the public are, to minorities.

It's not about making people feel bad, or feel guilty. It's about making sure people are educated. If they didn't know about the casting in The Hunger Games, or in Avatar, they should be made aware of it, so that they understand the reason why "I like white people to play white people" can sound obnoxious.

 

[Bathead]

You missed the point of what I was saying. I'm just making sure people are checking themselves before they carry on with their griping about the potential for an ethnic Selina.

If they protested this strongly against the changes made in other films, then excellent. But in the event that they did not protest, or were not aware of other, more insulting instances of changing a character's ethnicity, I thought they should know.

And yes, before anyone says anything, changing the race of a minority character into a white person is far more insulting than changing the race of a white character to an ethnic person.

Why? (just asking)

 

[Marvin]

So if he were placed in that exact same situation again, he would refrain from doing what was necessary because of how it would make him feel? Not only would that make him look irresponsible, but it would do a great job of contradicting what they tried to get across in MOS.

Killing Zod was done deliberately by Superman because there was no other way to stop him. It was (presented as) the right thing to do. So if Superman's response after walking away from all of that was to never kill again, it would imply that killing Zod was actually the wrong thing to do. Logically speaking, what he should take away from it is, "Killing sucks, but if it has to be done, then it has to be done." And if you think that's appropriate for Superman, more power to you.

No it wouldn't. Your logical pathway falls apart right around the end there.

If my response after eating a bar of ice cream is that I never want to eat another bar of ice cream again. That doesn't "imply that it's actually the wrong thing to do"
logically speaking of course.
Superman being a layered character doesn't base all his emotional responses to simply what's "right and wrong" in the world of objective morality. Pretty sure he wouldn't lie or ever punch anyone in the face if he did.

And yes Killing sucks, but if it has to be done, then it has to be done. Not sure when superman has been portrayed in any other way.

 

[floreairfoot]

So? We have plenty of white characters running around the comics. Why does the potential for just one being ethnic bother you?

I don't think you should alter the race/gender/nationality of any character, because again... why, what's the point? Keep what's established, for branding, familiarity, and consistency's sake.

If Perry White's casting in MOS doesn't bother you, good. If you say "Well, it doesn't count because he's a minor character", then you're doing things wrong. Seriously.

Yea, I think they should have picked an actor to match the source material.

If Selina had always been black, or Asian, or Hispanic, would you be annoyed by the idea of her being played by a white woman? If your answer is "No," or "Not as much", then you're doing things wrong.

Storm is my favorite Marvel character, and if they ever cast a white woman in that role, I will absolutely complain about it, day 1. Because there's no reason to do that!

In fact, if it was up to me, I would have selected an actress with a darker completion than Halle Berry - that might sound funny, but it's my honest opinion.

 

[Kane52630]

Yea, I think they should have picked an actor to match the source material.

but when you have a source material that lasted this long and gone though so many different variations, there's always room for one more variation.

 

[Sharkboy]

I don't think you should alter the race/gender/nationality of any character, because again... why, what's the point? Keep what's established, for branding, familiarity, and consistency's sake.



Yea, I think they should have picked an actor to match the source material.

Storm is my favorite Marvel character, and if they ever cast a white woman in that role, I will absolutely complain about it, day 1. Because there's no reason to do that!

In fact, if it was up to me, I would have selected an actress with a darker completion than Halle Berry - that might sound funny, but it's my honest opinion.

It's more a case by case thing (or character by character) but some can work, and Selina Kyle can certainly work as a black woman. I guarantee you only a very vocal minority would even care, there is absolutely nothing about Selina Kyle that is Caucasian, nothing would change...making her black is like having a Selina Kyle without a cowl, or changing her costume from black to purple. It's purely superficial, you can have your own preferences but you are 100% wrong if you think that having a black selina kyle is some sort of huge injustice towards comic continuity (which is bullcrap)

 

[BestGirl]

Why? (just asking)

I'm guessing because there's few enough nonwhite characters in comics already. No need to whitewash the small number that exist.

 

[floreairfoot]

It's more a case by case thing (or character by character) but some can work, and Selina Kyle can certainly work as a black woman. I guarantee you only a very vocal minority would even care, there is absolutely nothing about Selina Kyle that is Caucasian, nothing would change...making her black is like having a Selina Kyle without a cowl, or changing her costume from black to purple. It's purely superficial, you can have your own preferences but you are 100% wrong if you think that having a black selina kyle is some sort of huge injustice towards comic continuity (which is bullcrap)

I can see that it's not an issue for some, but I like the consistency, and I don't see a reason to change it.

I think everyone has a certain comfort level with changes, and skin/hair color is one of those limits for me. I don't like drastically changing visual identifiers.

 

[Loki882]

I don't think you should alter the race/gender/nationality of any character, because again... why, what's the point? Keep what's established, for branding, familiarity, and consistency's sake.



Yea, I think they should have picked an actor to match the source material.

Storm is my favorite Marvel character, and if they ever cast a white woman in that role, I will absolutely complain about it, day 1. Because there's no reason to do that!

In fact, if it was up to me, I would have selected an actress with a darker completion than Halle Berry - that might sound funny, but it's my honest opinion.

Most of these characters were created at a time when ALL prominent comic characters were white. Arguing that "it's like the source material" does not change the fact that at the time, the source material itself was racially and ethnically offensive, so I don't mind not being loyal to it, it's a different world these days, people need to understand that.

 

[BatSpider]

Hispanic Catwoman me gusta.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

Hispanic Catwoman me gusta.

I second this.

 

[floreairfoot]

Meh... most of you could care less about how Catwoman is represented anyway, but I can only imagine the ensuing ****-storm of an "anything but white" Batman or Superman.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Hispanic Catwoman me gusta.

That'd be neat. I really want an Italian Catwoman, though.

Come to think of it, I've seen a person of Hispanic descent that felt "off the pages."

Don't have a photo, though.