Superman Returns Is Superman's Boy Scout Image The Reason Beyond Lackluster Ticket Sales?

hunter rider said:
Spiderman proves that being a good guy through and through with no badass leanings can sell but his advantage is he is an underdog

Superman is virtually invincible and i truly believe if this film had a true physical threat to him then there would be grater interest,it isn't the character or what he stands for that is lacking it is the movie's choice of direction

That's a good assessment.

I would also add that it wasn't so much the boyscout image, as it was keeping everything so closely aligned with the Donner film, and the lack of a supervillain, as well as a strong story. The concept of the return was good, but the implementation of presenting it on film with adding the love triangle, and the child was a big mistake. The film came off very boring and this is being reflected via WoM.

As for the international markets, I talked to my brother the other day, and he's a teacher in Germany. He works with executives and with teens and people in their 20's and 30's. Basically, a broad demographic. I asked him about the World Cup and stuff, and that impact. He said that people were more pumped over there about seeing POTC 2 than they were with Singer's Superdad. WoM is spreading about SR, and it's not good for the film.
 
The first "Spider-Man" made so much money primarily because it came out the spring after 9/11. There was a Newsweek article that described this better, but basically it said "America thought it was Superman, but we were really Spider-Man", meaning we discovered we weren't invincible, and we wanted to brood with Spidey. Every superhero movie is put next to that film and judged by its box office, and I doubt a film will capture that magic again, that feeling we all had. The gross of "Superman Returns" thus far would be considered fine it was any other film besides a big-budget superhero one. As far as Superman being too much of a boy-scout, how much more badass can a superhero get than lifting an entire continent and taking a bullet in the eye? The general public wants to see someone who is clearly a rogue anti-hero like Jack Sparrow so badly I think they forget that you can still be a good guy and be "cool".
 
The concept of the return wasn't any good either. Singer should've started his lazy insipid ass over instead of rehashing another movie. I'm so going to enjoy the ripping this idiots gonna get at CC.
 
hunter rider said:
Spiderman proves that being a good guy through and through with no badass leanings can sell but his advantage is he is an underdog

Superman is virtually invincible and i truly believe if this film had a true physical threat to him then there would be grater interest,it isn't the character or what he stands for that is lacking it is the movie's choice of direction
Yeah, I´m thinking Singer shouldn´t have done yet another movie where Supers has to stop a Lex Luthor land takeover plan... A massive hero/villain showdown might have made this more exciting and marketable. I mean, the Supes/Zod and henchmen fight is still cool 26 years later, imagine what could be done with today´s technology.
 
ultimatefan said:
Yeah, I´m thinking Singer shouldn´t have done yet another movie where Supers has to stop a Lex Luthor land takeover plan... A massive hero/villain showdown might have made this more exciting and marketable. I mean, the Supes/Zod and henchmen fight is still cool 26 years later, imagine what could be done with today´s technology.

Thats the key IMO,with modern tech i think people expected to see Superman in amazing gravity defying battles as opposed to catching and saving things
 
Heres why the movies are starting to fail.

When Tim Burton made Batman he deviated from the core character BUT made up for it with visual style and creative writing. How many out there know at least 3 lines the joker alone? This is why Batman worked.

Then you have Spiderman. Raimi stuck very close to the core character. The only deviation really is organic webshooters and the psuedo space goblin. Otherwise then that there almost parallel. Raimi has nice visuals for the most part but IMO his dialogue is a bit lacking. Spidermans flaws though are totally excepted because there is hardly any difference between this movie character and the comic one.

So in essence what im saying is the closer you stick to the source the more errors your able to have(to an extent) while the more you deviate the more you better make up for it with dynamite visuals and creativity up the ass like Burton did. Superman returns has niether one of these, niether did Xmen and this is why they failed.
 
Do people remember the reaction the picture of Routh in the suite got when it was released? People were calling for Singers head, since then peoples interest just declined, and the trailers did not help either.
 
Oh and to go a little bit more on SR routhe looks 12. Hes not even a man never mind a superman.
 
stryfe said:
Oh and to go a little bit more on SR routhe looks 12. Hes not even a man never mind a superman.

I know most people say its not a factor but, when people look at Routh they don't see Superman.
 
GarudA said:
Do people remember the reaction the picture of Routh in the suite got when it was released? People were calling for Singers head, since then peoples interest just declined, and the trailers did not help either.
Yeah and they should ahve released it earlier and fixed it right then and there. Singer did it with the X-Men, and although fans complained, no one who wasnt into comics, or didnt watch the cartoon show knew who the Xmen was even. So the general audience didn't have a frame of reference and it looked fine to them. Superman is knows the world over. Everyone knows what he looks like and when something is wrong. people called me and a few people here liars for doing it, but I showed the suit pic a lot to a lot of the every day normal people I meet and they all hated it and said it was just wrong. but, Singer probably told the studio this happened with X-men and when it got released no one cared.
 
I agree, the money is falling on Singer's shoulders. Whoever said that this movie doesn't have the potential for drawing in people that want to watch it again is the nail in the coffin. Look at Batman Begins, it resurrected itself from a franchise that had doomed itself with bad movies, and exploded in DVD sales afterwards. You just like watching that movie.

Look at how we get to the first spectacle, or first peak of action in Batman Begins versus Superman Returns.

In Batman, you get the murder up front, a nice shocking moment. The scenes after that are like alternating touching moment and moments of angst, as Bruce remembers his parents, and is poked into being Batman, until finally his training is complete and we have a big action sequence.

In SR, we start off with Luthor getting an old widow to sign some papers, a crashed ship, some staring-into-the-corn-fields moments, some bungling at the office, and then finally we get to see Superman save the day with the airplane. By that point, were you thinking like 'for a semi-sequel, it sure takes him a long time to be Superman in this movie?!'.

The pacing just seemed off -- what should have been short and sweet moments, were long and border-line boring. The moments of action were either too short, or showed too much of superman-in-transit (which flying is nice), but not enough of things like when he detaches the plains, or lifts stuff. All of those intricate action moments felt rushed.

Finally, we could have gone with less stare-at-lois moments. Again, we need to relate to superman on a level, but remembering being desperate in love or acting borderline-creep against the unattainable girl does not foster good feelings. BB's romance wasn't much better (I think of it non existant since Bruce wasn't looking to be with Rachel), but you get a feeling that Bruce cares about the people around him and is emotionally engaged.

The SR luthor plot is forgiveable even, after all most superhero villians have pretty bad or simplistic plots. The green goblin had a crazy revenge plot, which was just simple. Doc Oc's plot was kinda stupid - kill everyone, and yourself for a science project. The X-Men series plots were nothing to write home about. Luckily, BB had a great villian plot that supported three characters (batman, ras, and scare crow).

I think we also came to expect more from Lex. Let's face it, the original Hackman Lex was much like the Spacey Lex -- diabolical, but not really logical (detonating nukes that would radiate your great real estate? It's just as bad as having a cold alien world for new real estate). However the Lex on Smallvile and Superman TAS have both been great characters, tactical, diabolical, and very logical in terms of their motivation. The Lex in Smallville is very believable about his plots and you understand why he does it.

It's the last set of scenes in Superman Returns that really drives my point home. The action in Metropolis is short and never resolved or fully realized (certainly the city would have more problems), giving way to Superman getting nearly dying from lifting something with kryptonite in it and then being in the hospital for a long time. I think audiences would have accepted some plot twists around the love triangle of Lois, but you don't want to see the man of steel looking like joe shmoe in a hospital bed.

And last, but not least - the son-of-superman. Perhaps an interesting sequel plot item, but it turned into its own little drama at the end with a speech by superman that appeared out of character and completely unmotivated.
 
Dont really think it's Superman that's the problem. I thought SR was a good movie. But I had to see it twice to warm up to it. I think to the general audience, Smallville is what Superman is to them. SR just seems dated and geared towards the older crowd. This is Superman, like Spidey he appeals to the masses and not just the fans. I hope Brandon Routh gets to do another Superman movie, because I thought he and Bosworth were excellent. I just hope Singer learns his lesson and blends the drama and action with the sequal..............Like a certain kick ass Pirate movie that just came out.
 
Mr. Socko said:
Kinda so. The public no longer likes cartoony colorful superheroes. They think they are for kids.

Actually I think that, with the right context, the public *loves* cartoony colorful superheroes.

I'm no sports fan, but millions of people in our country tune in to watch and spend millions upon millions of dollars every year to support 'heroes' wearing tights engaged in gladiatorial combat:

p1_brettfavre.jpg

And people will rally behind them:
6099.jpg


If this vibe can be tapped into and demographic lines can be crossed then a superhero movie WILL succeed with general audiences.
 
Mike said:
Dont really think it's Superman that's the problem. I thought SR was a good movie. But I had to see it twice to warm up to it. I think to the general audience, Smallville is what Superman is to them. SR just seems dated and geared towards the older crowd. This is Superman, like Spidey he appeals to the masses and not just the fans. I hope Brandon Routh gets to do another Superman movie, because I thought he and Bosworth were excellent. I just hope Singer learns his lesson and blends the drama and action with the sequal..............Like a certain kick ass Pirate movie that just came out.

Totally agree with you about Routh.

If WB cancels his contract for the next 2 films I'm not watching them.

Routh is a great Superman.
 
I think there's been so many damn superhero movies out over the past few years that after awhile they all start to look the same. The Richard White-Lois Lane plot was nearly exactly like the John Jameson-Mary Jane plot from Spider-Man 2. Both guys were even the nephews of the editor in chief/publisher. Both guys were portrayed as nice heroic guys too. Though with John Jameson I do know he at least is a character from the comics. Was Richard just made up for the movie? I dunno, I never heard of him before. Superman was seen as a boring, square boysout back in 1978 too, but back then the landscape for superhero movies was very different. No one ever saw a man fly in any kind of believable way before. There was also some terrible marketing for this film. They waited until May to release the full version trailers. A lot of people didn't even realize a new Superman movie was coming out. The whole notion that Superman was "returning" to the public was really overstating the matter too. OK sure he hasn't had a movie since 1987, but since then he has had 2 animated series, a Justice League animated show, Lois&Clark, and Smallville. He's been ****ed out in merchandise as well. So Superman has hardly been "gone". He was just returning to the big screen. The public was very familiar with Spider-Man for years, but I don't think the general public really knew the whole story of Peter Parker and who he was. Peter Parker being a younger character also helps greatly, and those films already acknoweldge that Peter is a geek, which kinda takes the air out of people too cool for these kind movies anyway.

I do think Superman's fanbase is sorta fragmented too. There are people that only want the Post-Crisis Superman, with only the corporate tycoon Lex Luthor. Anything else isn't worth bothering with. They kinda act like Superman didn't get good until John Byrne wrote Man of Steel back in 1986. There are people that want Tom Welling and the Smallville version, there are housewives that want Dean Cain and Lois & Clark, there are those attached to the 1950s George Reeves version. There are different ways to tell Superman's story, and I think it would be hard to appease everyone.

WB has made the same misteps with Batman over the years, but the Batman character just seems to be able to "survive" no matter what. The character was able to survie the debalce that was Batman & Robin. In a contest of Batman vs. God, fanboys would give Bruce Wayne some pretty good odds if he "had enough time to prepare" against God. All Batman needs is "enough time to prepare" and the fanboys pick him to beat anyone. That's how ridiculous it can get with the Bat-love. But that works in Batman's favor.

Maybey Superman should change into a dark vigilante of the night? He's constantly obsessed with avenging the death of Jor-El and Lara?
 
[FONT=&quot]Hunter rider got it spot on. The problem isn’t that the character needs to be darker, its cause superman barely had to break a sweat.
I think audiences like to see the hero in real peril and pushed to the limit. I never really thought he was in serious trouble,. even when he threw that krypton continent into space.
It needed a villain that pushed him more. The hulk had the same problem, there never felt like a major threat to the character or the world. Its easier to put most other super heroes like the bat or spidey in tight spots.
The first superman did it well with the 2 missiles, needing superman to be in 2 places at once. Kinda did it too well cause they had to cheat to solve it in the end. Zod and crew made for a good fight and had the beating of him in the second. Spidey has taken a good beating in his last 2 films. The bat had to do some quick thinking and came up with a great plan at the last minute in begins. (joker almost had him beat in batman) The blood god almost got the better of blade. Hulk and superman (in SR) just came across invincible, and not really tested.[/FONT]
 
I thought when he got his ass kicked within an inch of his life, there was danger.

When he got stabbed, there was danger.

Superman ****ing died. He ****ING DIED.......How much farther can you go than that, man?

The danger was there, while keeping to Superman's physical strengths. It'd suck to make him weaker, cuz your *****ng out of the challeng, I think.

I think it needed more action, that's all, I think.

And, yeah....the boy scout image hurts him. I mean, The darker heroes are more popular b/c they're cooler.
 
As much as he got a beating you just new lois was gona come back on that plane and find him. I didnt get the sence he was he was gona die on that hospital bed. I was more worried that people would catch on to clark going awol again. You are right, it needed more action. Sups doesnt have to be a dark bad boy for that though.
 
Hunter rider got it spot on. The problem isn’t that the character needs to be darker, its cause superman barely had to break a sweat.
That's the point though, Superman is supposed to be the "savior" of the superheroes, the one that can solve the problems others cannot. That being said I began to wonder about Supes after he was stabbed with a kryptonite shard and fell off a cliff, how he was going to beat Lex on a kryptonite continent. That and the following hospital scene, where they had to rip off his suit and none of the medical supplies helping made him seem pretty damn vulnerable to me.
And, yeah....the boy scout image hurts him. I mean, The darker heroes are more popular b/c they're cooler.
That right there shows society is going down the drain, when we don't think the Man of Steel is "cool" enough. The man can fly, has X-Ray vision, invulnerable to bullets, etc. But oh, he smiles and doesn't glare and have a monotone voice like Batman, he's not "cool". He doesn't stagger around drunk like a pirate, he's not "cool". It's sad that the first superhero, whom everyone has or has had the "S" logo on some apparel or tatoo or whatever, is not considered "cool" by the public. Is the movie Oscar material? No. But it's still pretty damn good, and Superman is still the role model that everyone can aspire to. :supes:
 
Max......he did die. He just didn't stay dead.

Listen, that was danger there, all right. I mean, it's not an opinion....it's a fact. I mean, there's not much else short of an actual super fight, that can push this character to the edge of that danger zone.

Seriously though......that beating he took, you guys didn't think it was strong? I mean, I don't think any Superhero film has done it like that b4.....except Passion, of course.
 
8atman said:
Face it Superman is a family hero movie and family movies aren't going to sell as well. I'm sure we'll get a Superman sequal but it I'm sure it will be toned down to appease more to the family crowds and with a smaller budget.

Does anyone agree with this at all?

A Superman flick should appeal to the family. He's got those supreme powers and a mild-mannered disguise. It's better to approach it lightly than to take his life too seriously.
 
Slimy Wall Crawler said:
WB has made the same misteps with Batman over the years, but the Batman character just seems to be able to "survive" no matter what. The character was able to survie the debalce that was Batman & Robin. In a contest of Batman vs. God, fanboys would give Bruce Wayne some pretty good odds if he "had enough time to prepare" against God. All Batman needs is "enough time to prepare" and the fanboys pick him to beat anyone. That's how ridiculous it can get with the Bat-love. But that works in Batman's favor.

Maybey Superman should change into a dark vigilante of the night? He's constantly obsessed with avenging the death of Jor-El and Lara?

The Superman movie "failed" because it wasn't a solid movie. It had its fair share of problems. It wasn't a movie I would want to see more than once in the theatre. WB did makes some missteps with Batman mainly with Forever and B&R. But the studio brought on the right director changed the tone of the film, and had a hit. Superman Returns was Superman 1 and 2 redux. Bryan Singer just doesn't impress me. The guy needs to do his homework before making any comic films. The X-Men movies were okay but I think feel he let the Superman character down in his film. I felt like he let a lot of Supes fans down as well with his lackluster entry in the Superman films. The best representation of Supes has always been TAS in my opinion. Those are the guys that should be getting those big checks to make the Hollywood comic blockbusters :up:
 
No, I don't think the public wants a darker, more realistic (which is oxymoronic when describing a alien really) Superman. I believe the problem is not showing off the virtues of Superman. He's what you would call the pinnacle of being good. I got a feeling the audience wants to see the real Superman. The one that's not afraid to fight evil, one that's dedicating to helping others, one that doesn't lie, one that is good and decent even when people around him are corrupted. A Superman that forsakes Earth for 5 years, knocked up Lois and left her (don't care what his excuse is he abandoned her after having sex with her), mopes around watching Lois and Richard together, and basically being uninspirational throughout the movie (my view) and all that go against what Superman is all about.

I want to see him caring about the world, about the people he lives with all his life, about the only woman he ever loved, about what it means to be good and all that stuff. Singer's Superman disappoints me and I am sure a lot of people are too.
 
dpm07 said:
That's a good assessment.

I would also add that it wasn't so much the boyscout image, as it was keeping everything so closely aligned with the Donner film, and the lack of a supervillain, as well as a strong story. The concept of the return was good, but the implementation of presenting it on film with adding the love triangle, and the child was a big mistake. The film came off very boring and this is being reflected via WoM.

As for the international markets, I talked to my brother the other day, and he's a teacher in Germany. He works with executives and with teens and people in their 20's and 30's. Basically, a broad demographic. I asked him about the World Cup and stuff, and that impact. He said that people were more pumped over there about seeing POTC 2 than they were with Singer's Superdad. WoM is spreading about SR, and it's not good for the film.

Well, we'll see how it does over there in August. Someone said this movie could do well with the European cousins. Batman Begins did pretty well over there. Did even better in France than in Germany. Same for Fantastic Four.
 

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