James Bond: 007 - Spectre

[flickchick85]

So something should be done about the state of things. Criticize that.

Pretty sure I just did.

It won't be fixed by making a previous white character black. That's just a temporary band aid and a step to the side instead of up. You're not breaking any barriers. There needs to be a fundamental systematic shift in the establishment. I know people can complain it's unlikely and it's hard, but I don't see why there can't be passionate people who truly care about these sort of things to make waves to make it happen. It's an uphill battle, but it's possible.

Did I say anything about a fix? All I'm talking about are steps. But a symptom of the problem is the default stance that traditionally white characters "must" stay white because they've always been white. So any change to that notion would be a step in a positive direction to me, as long as it doesn't change attributes that actually make those characters who they are. For example, there are some historically-based characters for whom a race change wouldn't make sense due to the time or place in which their stories are set. I just don't think James Bond is one of those characters.

It's a fictional character, which is a figment of our collective imaginations. They evolve with every new story told about them. The notion that they can't be changed in general is just ridiculous to me.

 

[Schlosser85]

But there are elements of Bond's background and character that are shaped by his being an old money white Englishman of a certain social class and generation.

There are things about Bond that would be different if he was black, just like there are things about, say, Shaft, that would be changed by making him a white man.

 

[flickchick85]

All I've ever gotten from the films was that his parents were wealthy and that he was orphaned at a young age. Social class was certainly part of it, but at this point he's existed as a contemporary across several generations, so I view his background as a pretty timeless one now.

If these were period films, I'd agree with you. But given the nature of what the series has become, not so much. To me, the several Bonds we've had have had so few attributes in common, each one is practically a re-invention of a few basic traits.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

All I've ever gotten from the films was that his parents were wealthy and that he was orphaned at a young age. Social class was certainly part of it, but at this point he's existed as a contemporary across several generations, so I view his background as a pretty timeless one now.

If these were period films, I'd agree with you. But given the nature of what the series has become, not so much. To me, the several Bonds we've had have had so few attributes in common, each one is practically a re-invention of a few basic traits.

The problem I have with this is that it always seems that anything that can be considered white culture is treated as some sort of base line, thus meaning it can be used to represent any race. But if you did the same with any other race, well then there seems to be a representation of clear and distinct cultural differences.

 

[AnneFan]

James Bond was conceived by his creator, Ian Lancaster Fleming, as a white male. He has always been a white male in every form of franchise media, be it books, games or films. Fans wanting this long established element to continue are certainly not racist and the assumption they are is deeply offensive.

 

[flickchick85]

The problem I have with this is that it always seems that anything that can be considered white culture is treated as some sort of base line, thus meaning it can be used to represent any race. But if you did the same with any other race, well then there seems to be a representation of clear and distinct cultural differences.

When "white culture" dominates "pop culture" at such a disproportional degree to the actual population, I don't really see that as a big problem.

That said, I get what you're saying, and I'd agree with you about certain characters. Like Steve Rogers, for example, because of the time in which his story is set and what he represents. But James Bond just isn't one of those characters I feel like that's a problem with. To me, he is defined largely by his nationality and social class, but not his skin color. If Idris Elba were the most Bond-like actor available, I'd be all about him being Bond. But as long as Fassbender's still working, that won't be the case, lol. That said, Idris has proven he can embody everything I'd look for in a new Bond - except for his age - so I wouldn't be too opposed to his casting. He's certainly better for Bond than someone like Tom Hardy though, imo, who just gives off too much of a "blue collar" vibe for Bond to me.

 

[Schlosser85]

James Bond was conceived by his creator, Ian Lancaster Fleming, as a white male. He has always been a white male in every form of franchise media, be it books, games or films. Fans wanting this long established element to continue are certainly not racist and the assumption they are is deeply offensive.

Yes, yes, and more yes.

 

[flickchick85]

I haven't seen anyone calling anyone a racist. Just a discussion on whether or not race matters to this character and if a race change would be bad.

 

[Schlosser85]

He's certainly better for Bond than someone like Tom Hardy though, imo, who just gives off too much of a "blue collar" vibe for Bond to me.

The funny thing is Tom Hardy's actually not blue collar, although he seems to go out of his way to downplay his background.

 

[Black Narcissus]

It was only until Skyfall did I become aware of his wealthy background. Oh lawd.

I just thought he was an orphan etc.

@Schlosser85

You better keep him locked away...I'm going to steal him from you.

 

[flickchick85]

The funny thing is Tom Hardy's actually not blue collar, although he seems to go out of his way to downplay his background.

Well he's very pretty. So maybe he's just trying extra hard to cover that up, lol.

 

[Schlosser85]

Hardy, as much as I love him, comes off IRL as a posh rich boy who's kind of embarrassed about being a posh rich boy and has a wannabe chav persona going on.

 

[Schlosser85]

@Schlosser85

You better keep him locked away...I'm going to steal him from you.

I'll be sure to remind Geoffrey to assign more men to the grounds.

 

[flickchick85]

Hardy, as much as I love him, comes off IRL as a posh rich boy who's kind of embarrassed about being a posh rich boy and has a wannabe chav persona going on.

He should be more embarrassed by his MySpace selfie days.

 

[Black Narcissus]

I just want to make it clear again.

I want the best actor suitable for Bond.

To me...Elba fits the bill, it isn't just a race change for a random reason.

I can't think of any other black actor who does fit the bill. He is too old for a reboot.

That's all.

 

[Schlosser85]

He should be more embarrassed by his MySpace selfie days.

lol, yes, that was....oversharing.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

When "white culture" dominates "pop culture" at such a disproportional degree to the actual population, I don't really see that as a big problem.

That said, I get what you're saying, and I'd agree with you about certain characters. Like Steve Rogers, for example, because of the time in which his story is set and what he represents. But James Bond just isn't one of those characters I feel like that's a problem with. To me, he is defined largely by his nationality and social class, but not his skin color. If Idris Elba were the most Bond-like actor available, I'd be all about him being Bond. But as long as Fassbender's still working, that won't be the case, lol. That said, Idris has proven he can embody everything I'd look for in a new Bond - except for his age - so I wouldn't be too opposed to his casting. He's certainly better for Bond than someone like Tom Hardy though, imo, who just gives off too much of a "blue collar" vibe for Bond to me.

He is defined by his nationality and social class, which is very specific. Old school white British upclass is a quite different then modern times. There is a difference between say the royals and those you see on that ridiculous Chelsea show.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I haven't seen anyone calling anyone a racist. Just a discussion on whether or not race matters to this character and if a race change would be bad.

This conversation is old school British upper class civil.

 

[Schlosser85]

Is that Colin Firth?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

After the Man from UNCLE trailer, I want Cavill as the next Bond. As long as he has some hair left of course.

Is that Colin Firth?

Yes, as Mr Darcy.

 

[flickchick85]

He is defined by his nationality and social class, which is very specific. Old school white British upclass is a quite different then modern times. There is a difference between say the royals and those you see on that ridiculous Chelsea show.

I'm not sure what Chelsea show you're talking about, but an "old school" (and that's an attitude/set of values, imo, not a physical descriptor) upper class Brit is an old school upper class Brit to this American. I'm not all that versed on Black British history, but given that they abolished slavery several decades before America, I would imagine there were a number of wealthy black families that would've qualified as "old money" by the 1970's (when a contemporary Bond would have been born). *shrug*

After the Man from UNCLE trailer, I want Cavill as the next Bond. As long as he has some hair left of course.

I wouldn't have agreed with you until I saw that trailer, but now I'm sold! As for the hair thing, that didn't stop Connery.

Yes, as Mr Darcy.

Um, as THE Mr. Darcy. Schlosser, Pride & Prejudice 1995. The only one that matters. Educate yourself!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm not sure what Chelsea show you're talking about, but an "old school" (and that's an attitude/set of values, imo, not a physical descriptor) upper class Brit is an old school upper class Brit to this American. I'm not all that versed on Black British history, but given that they abolished slavery several decades before America, I would imagine there were a number of wealthy black families that would've qualified as "old money" by the 1970's (when a contemporary Bond would have been born). *shrug*

Bond's age definitely changes with time, but what he represents does not. There are some variations in his portrayal, but he always stands for a certain time period, a certain time of British. It is why for the last 20 years he has been considered a relic in his own films.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I wouldn't have agreed with you until I saw that trailer, but now I'm sold! As for the hair thing, that didn't stop Connery.

The trailer blew me away. Wasn't expecting that from Superman. Thoroughly impressed.

Um, as THE Mr. Darcy. Schlosser, Pride & Prejudice 1995. The only one that matters. Educate yourself!

Oh no you didn't.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Plus, the old money culture in the UK wasn't as forward as one might think. Certainly the posh, blue bloods were seen as out of date but they were still largely on their own in the 70s.

 

[flickchick85]

Bond's age definitely changes with time, but what he represents does not. There are some variations in his portrayal, but he always stands for a certain time period, a certain time of British. It is why for the last 20 years he has been considered a relic in his own films.

Except THIS era turned M into the relic of the post-Cold War era in the same way she accused Bond of being a relic of the Cold War in the previous (Brosnan) era. If they keep Bond contemporary, then this is likely the last era in which ANY of the characters can be seen a relic of those times. Watch as the new Bond will be a "relic" of the late-90's, lol.