Batman Begins Joe Chill is the biggest problem of BB

[SeriousDuke]

I love Batman Begins... and it is one of my favorite films of all time, as well as -- IMO -- very faithful to the comics.

BUT...

The biggest problem with the film... and it pisses me off so much... for the obvious reason, and then another reason... is the fact that Joe Chill is caught. NO!! The reason for Batman to exist is because his parents killer was never caught!! Not because he was... UGHHHHHH. Batman is out every night, looking for him, and hoping to find him... but deep down knowing he never will. It's bothered me so much, and I wonder if it bothers you all as much as it does me.

Joe Chill should have gotten away, and not have been caught... but, okay... whatever, he's caught in BB(I can live with that)... then finally they let him go and KILL him, but he shouldn't have been killed!!

Sure Batman Begins isn't perfect... as much as I want it to be, it never will.

But... if the Joe Chill stuff was cut, we could have had better editing for the last half of the film!!... meaning not as jumpy with the climax(ending scenes)...

Maybe we could have even got Leslie Tompkins... oh well.

 

[Angeloz]

Does that mean you hated that the Joker was the killer in 1989?

Angeloz

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

When Bill Finger says that Joe Chill killed Batman's parents then Joe Chill killed Batman's parents. Batman is not out every night to catch the killer. He is there to fight crime and save innocent people.

 

[Swordmaster]

Both have been reasons in the comics, and both valid. Personally, I like the fact that Chill was caught, as it makes Bruce seem more valiant in his mission.

 

[Two-Face]

It helps if you think it's different version of Batman.

 

[Angeloz]

It helps if you think it's different version of Batman.

Naughty suggesting something sensible. Could get you in trouble.

Angeloz

 

[The Spider-Bat]

I think Frank Miller said it best when he once described Bruce Wayne: "He's certainly a man with a mission, but it's not one of vengeance. Bruce is not after personal revenge. He's much bigger than that; he's much more noble than that. He wants the world to be better place, where a young Bruce Wayne would not be a victim. In a way, he's out to make himself unnecessary. Batman is a hero who wishes he didn't have to exist."

Now, if that is taken into account, then Duke, your theory does not match. I too disagree that Bruce is out every night hunting for his killer. He is not just a vigilante out for personal revenge. He is a hero who, like Miller said, is out to make the world a better place. Revenge does not fit into that motive. A crucial part to this is I think Rachel's speech before Bruce goes into Falcone's club. She tells him how new Joe Chills are being created, and that the problem isn't as small as Bruce thought, and that he should look past his own pain.

In this way, Bruce started out as a petty coward with a gun, out for revenge. But he became, he escalated to something much more. Not a vigilante, but a hero.

 

[BubbaGump]

I think Frank Miller said it best when he once described Bruce Wayne: "He's certainly a man with a mission, but it's not one of vengeance. Bruce is not after personal revenge. He's much bigger than that; he's much more noble than that. He wants the world to be better place, where a young Bruce Wayne would not be a victim. In a way, he's out to make himself unnecessary. Batman is a hero who wishes he didn't have to exist."

Now, if that is taken into account, then Duke, your theory does not match. I too disagree that Bruce is out every night hunting for his killer. He is not just a vigilante out for personal revenge. He is a hero who, like Miller said, is out to make the world a better place. Revenge does not fit into that motive. A crucial part to this is I think Rachel's speech before Bruce goes into Falcone's club. She tells him how new Joe Chills are being created, and that the problem isn't as small as Bruce thought, and that he should look past his own pain.

In this way, Bruce started out as a petty coward with a gun, out for revenge. But he became, he escalated to something much more. Not a vigilante, but a hero.

Beautiful post.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

That's a profoundly eloquent and insightful Miller quote.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

I think Frank Miller said it best when he once described Bruce Wayne: "He's certainly a man with a mission, but it's not one of vengeance. Bruce is not after personal revenge. He's much bigger than that; he's much more noble than that. He wants the world to be better place, where a young Bruce Wayne would not be a victim. In a way, he's out to make himself unnecessary. Batman is a hero who wishes he didn't have to exist."

"All he wanted was money. He was sick and guilty over what he did. I was naïve enough to think him the lowest sort of man."

That was one of the best things in DKR. But Frank Miller has forgotten these things. In interviews today he says things like "Batman's a dick".

 

[Damiean Dark]

I think thats all bunk batman is a hero/anti hero he wont kill but he will threaten, bribe or (rarely) beat up a criminal to get what he wants this is why he has never been totally excepted by Gotham PD. IMO The overiding factor in his creation was that he never caught his parents killer thats what caused the dark part of bruce wayne to imerge which eventually became batman in the comics they should never have shown the wayne murderer again much less give him a name.

 

[Damiean Dark]

I think thats all bunk batman is a hero/anti hero he wont kill but he will threaten, bribe or (rarely) beat up a criminal to get what he wants this is why he has never been totally excepted by Gotham PD. IMO The overiding factor in his creation was that he never caught his parents killer thats what caused the dark part of bruce wayne to imerge which eventually became batman in the comics they should never have shown the wayne murderer again much less give him a name.

I hate the way some people try to put Bats in a superman mold of hero they are total opposites superman is the trusting one who relies on mens basic goodness while Batman is the grim reality of humanity of knowing some men are just bastards who need taking down in any way possible baring killing. Batman is a complex and psychological character who seems permenently on a balance between heroism and insanity TDKR batman is a seriously scarred character and probably the natural progression of Bruces psychosis imo

 

[The Spider-Bat]

I think thats all bunk batman is a hero/anti hero he wont kill but he will threaten, bribe or (rarely) beat up a criminal to get what he wants this is why he has never been totally excepted by Gotham PD. IMO The overiding factor in his creation was that he never caught his parents killer thats what caused the dark part of bruce wayne to imerge which eventually became batman in the comics they should never have shown the wayne murderer again much less give him a name.

I hate the way some people try to put Bats in a superman mold of hero they are total opposites superman is the trusting one who relies on mens basic goodness while Batman is the grim reality of humanity of knowing some men are just bastards who need taking down in any way possible baring killing. Batman is a complex and psychological character who seems permenently on a balance between heroism and insanity TDKR batman is a seriously scarred character and probably the natural progression of Bruces psychosis imo

In my view, Batman was the product of a murder not a killer. And if that is the case, then it is the act that makes Batman, not the one who does it. Having Chill live meant several things, for one, it showed us that (and this is arguable I suppose) the world Nolan has set us in, is a more realistic world. Notice how the murder was, in comparison to '89 or most of the comics, fast and dirty. There was no operatic sense of it, no Jack Napier asking Bruce questions. For two, it allowed Bruce to get a new perspective of the world. Do you remember when he said that the first time he stole so he wouldn't starve, he lost many assumptions about right and wrong. This is true and should remain true throughout the character's existence. It is not the killer that makes Batman dark, it is the killing. The fact that anyone can have something like this happen to them. And even if they are caught, they still don't feel justice was served, Bruce certainly didn't, thats why he tried to kill Chill.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

In BB, Ra's basically created Batman. He instigated the economic upheaval, causing desperation for lower-classed Gothamites. BANG BANG! goes the gun.

Then he took Bruce, trained him in the fine arts of the ninja...

Death of parents > Martial Arts Refinement > Disillusionment = Batman. Inadvertant? Yes. Ra's wanted an ally with his convictions and power, to pass down the torch... but when it backfired, the opposite occured: a vigilante that would prove to be the downfall of not only himself, but that belief system of vengeance/balance/justice.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Also note that Ra's gave Bruce the idea of using fear and symbolism against his enemies. That wasn't BB Bruce's idea. He would be quite lost without his demented mentor.

 

[Angeloz]

Didn't Bruce also learn from criminals as well as law enforcement and martial arts experts in the comics. I'll admit I can accept more than one version of how he became Batman and where he got his ideas from. Although both the comics and the films have his parents killed when he was young. I guess that's the core idea. Whereas the other stuff can be not as deeply explored or done in different ways.

Angeloz

 

[Superwoman Prime]

That's exactly right, Angeloz.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

the fact that he was killed in front of Bruce kinda helped in Bruce's quest in understanding the criminal psyche.

 

[Angeloz]

the fact that he was killed in front of Bruce kinda helped in Bruce's quest in understanding the criminal psyche.

Care to elaborate? Or do you mean when he ended up confronting a gangster? I suspect you mean something different.

Angeloz

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Just for him to see that in front of him, helped him move into another stage in his understanding of the criminal mind, how things work so to speak.

 

[Angeloz]

That's exactly right, Angeloz.

Thanks.

Just for him to see that in front of him, helped him move into another stage in his understanding of the criminal mind, how things work so to speak.

I wondered if you just meant the murder or if you meant the journey. I suspected the murder. So thanks for the confirmation. Although you could argue that each thing in the film added to his journey into being Batman. Though I guess some don't like that it included criminals or "terrorists". There was also Gordon and mainly Alfred after his parents death too (but when he grew older it wasn't enough for a time). You could add many things including Rachel. I did like that we followed his journey even if not all of it was from the comics.

Angeloz

 

[Nightwing1977]

Does that mean you hated that the Joker was the killer in 1989?

Angeloz

ZING!!

 

[Vaportrail]

I dunno... I thought the whole "Why did you not avenge your parents?" thing kinda worked.
He's seeking vengeance every night, since he was robbed of his own.

Kinda makes sense. It worked for me.

 

[Angeloz]

ZING!!

Do they like that film? 'Cos I was curious as I don't know everyone here.

I dunno... I thought the whole "Why did you not avenge your parents?" thing kinda worked.
He's seeking vengeance every night, since he was robbed of his own.

Kinda makes sense. It worked for me.

I hate to break it to you but I think he rejected that notion. You'll note he did want to fight crime. But I think it was to save people. So they didn't have what happened to him happen to them. He at first even saved what he thought to be his misguided mentor. As a rejection of destructive beliefs. I'll grant you I've only seen the film two and three quarter times. So I might have forgotten something. I'll admit that's the way I like to view him too.

Angeloz

 

[Nightwing1977]

Do they like that film? 'Cos I was curious as I don't know everyone here.

I think many do. Some think the Joe Chill was one of the flaw in BB. Even if some of us like the film, it don't mean we will ignore some flaws.