Joker 'JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX' (Phillips and Phoenix return for the sequel) General News & Discussion Thread

[AndrewGilkison]

I find it ironic that the first movie and the people who made it really catered to the Martin Scorsese "comic book movies are not real cinema" crowd, and ultimately once it became a billion dollar grosser the sequel fell into the same traps and tropes that a lot of generic comic book movies fall into, like introducing legacy characters like Harley Quinn and Harvey Dent (because its now a franchise), setting up Harvey Dent to become Two-Face by having half his face get blown up in the court room, and tying into The Dark Knight Trilogy by having Arthur get killed by Heath Ledger's Joker, or hints at it .

So in the end, this "franchise" becomes the very thing it was supposed to be the antithesis of: Just another Batman franchise.

 

[BobJM]

I liked this more than the first; I liked the intention of the musical interludes but do think they could have been handled/integrated better for the most part. Some went a little too long and would cut next to a montage, so I feel like there could have been tighter editing.

But every scene with Gaga as Lee worked for me; if anything I wanted to see more of her character. Listen to her new Harlequin album if you haven’t yet.

This review is a good pull:

I didn’t walk into this movie blind (maybe that helped ?) but I don’t think I went into the first blind either. And, again, this was always an Elseworlds story…I did not, and still do not want, a Joker cinematic universe.

 

[BobJM]

Poor Harvey, but I love see him getting half his face blown away.

 

[BobJM]

IMHO considering most of the musical numbers are like fantasy sequences happening in the characters' imaginations, they should've been bolder and better done.

Now, also I think Phoenix probably should've been dubbed over for his lyrics. His voice did not sound good. These are fantasy imagination sequences, it's OK if his voice sounds more bombastic. It's clearly not him singing Burt Bacharach in the opening for example.

Agreed; I think the movie worked better when it went full Chicago with the musical interludes—even though I think they could have been better intercut with the goings-ons happening in the real world, like in the aforementioned movie musical.

However, when it was just extended singing in-person, it became a little too disjointed for me. Again, I think there was a better way to handle those moments that Philips didn’t quite nail. But I liked the intention.

 

[Another_Fool]

Even as dull as it is, I really don’t think it’s worse than films like Shazam 2, Aquaman 2, Black Adam, Antman Quantumania etc etc

The production value, cinematography, and acting alone beats those.

Agreed. It's not a terrible movie. For me it's just dull and uncompelling, but that's just to me. It's very well shot, it's well acted, and I sincerely admire the swing taken even if I personally don't think Todd stuck the landing. In fact I can very much see a world where over time that it develops a bit of a cult following. It may not but I can picture it because there are things that are done very well in the film.

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

I find it ironic that the first movie and the people who made it really catered to the Martin Scorsese "comic book movies are not real cinema" crowd, and ultimately once it became a billion dollar grosser the sequel fell into the same traps and tropes that a lot of generic comic book movies fall into, like introducing legacy characters like Harley Quinn and Harvey Dent (because its now a franchise), setting up Harvey Dent to become Two-Face by having half his face get blown up in the court room, and tying into The Dark Knight Trilogy by having Arthur get killed by Heath Ledger's Joker, or hints at it .

So in the end, this "franchise" becomes the very thing it was supposed to be the antithesis of: Just another Batman franchise.

I know I'm probably giving Phillips too much credit, but I feel like things were deliberate choices for that very reason. The more I read about this movie, the more I think he intentionally Joe Dante'd the film.

This year has been a train wreck for the industry, but it's been fantastic for film discussion.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Some pundits predicting that WB is overestimating the Sunday figure to get a $40 million total out there and soften the blow (If that's possible).

Could be looking at an actual total of $38-39 million on Monday.

 

[psylockolussus]

Yikes. Rotten tomatoes, cinemascore and now box office numbers. If I didn't know this wasn't a DCEU movie, I would have thought the bad streak of DCEU was just continuing.

 

[blueharvest]

 

[The Shape]

 

[emc5466]

 

[AndrewGilkison]

It figures that Superman would have to be the savior that comes in and carries the impossible weight on his back.

 

[TheVileOne]

What is KMS?

I know critics of the first movie called it a pro-incel film, but I did not view it that way. I viewed Arthur in the original film as a product of social and moral decay. He's the result of a breakdown in a society that's lost its sense of empathy. Social programs breaking down. A lack of community and others willing to help him in his situation, be it social therapy, child wellness, etc. You can even argue a grander moral message about gun control. Look how easily someone like Arthur got access to a gun, someone who is clearly not well and mentally disturbed, which later caused gun violence.

It shows classism between the rich upperclass and the lower class of Gotham. The lower-class feel neglected and abused. The rich uppercrust Gothamites think they know everything and they either bully or look down upon people like Arthur because they are rich and privileged. IMHO the point isn't that Arthur was "justified" for his actions. There is no justification for his actions or the lives he took. The point is that the social decadence of Gotham City, the social and moral decay, people lacking empathy, Arthur's abuse as a youth, lack of funding in social programs brought these events about.

Take for example the "Trial" episode of BTAS. The supervillains argue that they are victims of Batman. Batman "created" him. The anti-Batman lawyer serving as Batman's attorney then argues a chicken or the egg paradox. Batman didn't create them. They created Batman. The presence of crime. So I think Joker took a more broader view on that idea. These circumstances of Gotham City. The crime and moral decay produced a monster. I'm not saying Joker is an innocent victim all of this, but he's a product of his environment. Gotham City in this awful state was bound to produce violent tragedies such as this. That was my reading of the first film.

 

[Lily Adler]

What is KMS?

Kill myself.

 

[Lily Adler]

It took me longer than I would like to admit to remember Blue Beetle was a theatrical release.

 

[TheVileOne]

Kill myself.

...That's not a good acronym. For one thing, Myself is one word.

 

[Lily Adler]

...That's not a good acronym. For one thing, Myself is one word.

JBOL. I don't make the rule, sir.

 

[routhman]

IMO the story is great, but the musical aspects were just so poorly integrated making for a grueling and often cringe inducing experience. And I love musicals.

It wasn’t the raw amateur singing. That can be an effective choice in a musical. It was simply the lack of narrative function.

Annette with Adam Driver is sort of what I was hoping this would be more like. Wild, raw, weird.

So I see what you’re saying in some sense, but I think the function of the musical scenes were often to represent Arthur’s dissociation from the present moment. It was to bring us into the fantasy within his own mind that took over when he wanted to ignore what was happening in the real world. That act of dissociation is, by definition, jarring, so I think the way it was done was fairly intentional.

 

[Filmfreak]

It's not five though, is it? Super Pets, Black Adam, Shazam 2, The Flash, Blue Beetle, Aquaman 2 and Joker 2 came in a row all lost or will lose money.

So in the words of Monica Geller that's:

 

[Rick190293]

Just watched it and yes, it's a very boring movie. Barely any story at all. Enjoyed Phoenix and Gaga (wich was much more subtle as Harley than I expected), the cinematography and some songs, but that's it. And there's an ending?

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Actual opening weekend number - $37.8 million.

 

[blueharvest]

Actual opening weekend number - $37.8 million.

Even less than Morbius when it opened. I think that movie earned $39 million.

 

[TheVileOne]

David Zaslav should be fired this week. No confidence.

 

[Lily Adler]

David Zaslav should be fired this week. No confidence.

At least we got Harlequin out of it.

 

[The Joker]

If someone said 6 months ago that Morbius would have a bigger weekend opening than Joker 2, nobody would have believed it. Crazy.