Just a litle of the religious intolerance in my backyard

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/murfreesbo...n-draws-criticism-residents/story?id=10956381

http://www.wmctv.com/global/story.asp?s=11840458

This stuff completely infuriates me. I thought we were in the year 2010, I thought we as Americans were above all this. Well, I did until I moved to the south, where every knock on Obama has more to do with his name, and "Muslim faith" (in quotations because he's a Christian) than his actual politics. This sickens me, and I'm not even Muslim. What's even worse is that, Allen Jackson, the pastor that is quoted, is the pastor at the church that my brother attends, a church that I've gone to a few times. Not being of the Christian faith myself, I actually kind of liked the church because I felt it wasn't the typical church that came with all the negative stereotypes. But as time went on, I found myself agreeing less and less with his sermons, and now this. I won't be attending this church anymore. I wish I knew about the town hall meeting, if there are any more that ever pop up, I will definitely be there to speak in support of this Mosque.

I will be the first to admit that I understand the fears people have. I have them myself. I admit to feeling a sense of nervousness when I see Muslims on airplanes.

But there is something more important than whatever fear I may feel, and that is the 1st amendment, and people's freedoms. People have the freedom to worship who, and how they please as long as they respect the laws of our nation. This particular mosque has already condemned polygamy, something I guess Islam allows, because it is against our laws. We can't punish an entire group of people just because a few radical extremists taint and twist the faith to condone their evil actions.

 

[The Battousai]

This should probably be moved to the Religion thread


On topic, I agree that the outlash is rather ridiculous.

This reminds me of a recent clip on Fox News where they had a guy from Florida on complaining about a billboard a local atheist group had put up in his area. It read, "...one nation, indivisible...", and the guy was complaining about it. If I remember correctly, he called it an attack against God because it didn't say "under God". I guess he has never seen this:


Or, you know, read about the history of the pledge, because that would work, too.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Gotta love the religious, always something to complain about.

 

[Hotwire]

Let's take a minute to point out the hypocrisy here. These are the same types of people who love to preach about Jesus. Well, Jesus said, "Love thy neighbor." Right? These folks are also pretty vocal about the 2nd amendment. Well, what about the 1st?? I guess they just want to throw that part about "freedom of religion" right out the door. I have to say, Stan Whiteway's comment made me laugh. He's got the whole, NIMBY, mindset. For those who don't know, Not In My Back Yard.

 

[Maximum Carnage]

That's soooo true, Batt! Awesome!

 

[Spider-Who?]

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/murfreesbo...n-draws-criticism-residents/story?id=10956381

http://www.wmctv.com/global/story.asp?s=11840458

This stuff completely infuriates me. I thought we were in the year 2010, I thought we as Americans were above all this. Well, I did until I moved to the south, where every knock on Obama has more to do with his name, and "Muslim faith" (in quotations because he's a Christian) than his actual politics.

I live in the south. I've never heard anyone ***** about Obama's name. His politics, sure. But even if that were the case, I'd be lying if, as a southerner, I didn't find this above post to be some what insulting in its generalizations. That being said, there are morons every where, irregardless of geographical locations.

But there is something more important than whatever fear I may feel, and that is the 1st amendment, and people's freedoms. People have the freedom to worship who, and how they please as long as they respect the laws of our nation.

So its okay to express one's faith, but not ones opinions? Can't have one with out the.....oootheeer... If people feel that they need to speak out against something, its their right to do so; the validity of their arguments have no affect on their right to free speech.

We can't punish an entire group of people just because a few radical extremists taint and twist the faith to condone their evil actions.

Firstly, it isn't just "a few radical extremists". If there were just "a few" this war would have been over a long time ago.

Yes, its safe (and logical) to assume that MOST Muslims are NOT terrorists, and I would FULLY AGREE with you that we shouldn't punish innocent people for the actions of others.

However, I do think that we as a nation - a nation that is the main target for thousands, even millions of terrorists who are of the muslim faith" - have a right to be apprehensive. Intolerant? No. Bigoted? No. Cautious? Yes. It sucks that events occur that don't let us live in perfect harmony, but to turn a blind eye for the sake of political correctness and hope that everyone will just toss down their guns and hug isn't a wise move.

I think you are over sensationalizing the idea that a mere 600 people of an entire town are opposed to the mosque. I mean, jeez, its not like they were running out and bashing any Muslim they found over the head with a rock, or kidnapping them and slicing their heads off...

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I live in the south. I've never heard anyone ***** about Obama's name. His politics, sure. But even if that were the case, I'd be lying if, as a southerner, I didn't find this above post to be some what insulting in its generalizations. That being said, there are morons every where, irregardless of geographical locations.

Where in the South do you live, because where I live, I constantly hear the references to his middle name, trying to associate him with Sadaam Hussein. I've heard the reference that his last name is one letter away from "Osama" He is constantly attacked in the media out here for being "Muslim"

If people were attacking his politics, I'd have no gripe, but they don't attack the politics. They just blindly throw away terms like "Muslim" and "Socialism" in an attempt to scare people into believing their propaganda.

You may find them as generalizations, but I am only speaking about what I witness on a daily basis, whether it is the media, or people I encounter in the town.

So its okay to express one's faith, but not ones opinions? Can't have one with out the.....oootheeer... If people feel that they need to speak out against something, its their right to do so; the validity of their arguments have no affect on their right to free speech.

What "opinion" are you talking about that I said someone couldn't express?

I spoke out against an opinion - one of intolerance. One that claims that this is a "Christian nation" (false claim - Treaty of Tripoli, Article XI) and that we need to take our nation back before it gets taken over by the Muslims (all things I have heard in regards to this mosque)

Yet, really these people are in no place to speak out against the mosque, because the 1st amendment guarantees that these people are allowed to worship freely and peacefully as they wish.

Firstly, it isn't just "a few radical extremists". If there were just "a few" this war would have been over a long time ago.

This still has nothing to do with the peaceful Muslims who are law abiding American citizens.

Yes, its safe (and logical) to assume that MOST Muslims are NOT terrorists, and I would FULLY AGREE with you that we shouldn't punish innocent people for the actions of others.

Then why is there an outcry over them building a mosque?

However, I do think that we as a nation - a nation that is the main target for thousands, even millions of terrorists who are of the muslim faith" - have a right to be apprehensive. Intolerant? No. Bigoted? No. Cautious? Yes. It sucks that events occur that don't let us live in perfect harmony, but to turn a blind eye for the sake of political correctness and hope that everyone will just toss down their guns and hug isn't a wise move.

It's not "political correctness", it is these people's CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS that we are talking about here. That whole "cautious" attitude is the same attitude that locked up Japanese citizens during World War 2.

I think you are over sensationalizing the idea that a mere 600 people of an entire town are opposed to the mosque. I mean, jeez, its not like they were running out and bashing any Muslim they found over the head with a rock, or kidnapping them and slicing their heads off...

No, they are just protesting these people's constitutional rights to assemble and worship, and vandalizing their property with messages of "Not Welcome"

 

[Spider-Who?]

Where in the South do you live, because where I live, I constantly hear the references to his middle name, trying to associate him with Sadaam Hussein. I've heard the reference that his last name is one letter away from "Osama" He is constantly attacked in the media out here for being "Muslim".

If people were attacking his politics, I'd have no gripe, but they don't attack the politics. They just blindly throw away terms like "Muslim" and "Socialism" in an attempt to scare people into believing their propaganda.

A LOT of people are worried about his politics, and the fear of turning the USA into a "socialist" nation. Hell, I was just in Philadelphia and heard people discussing this. It has nothing to do with geographical location.

You may find them as generalizations, but I am only speaking about what I witness on a daily basis, whether it is the media, or people I encounter in the town.



What "opinion" are you talking about that I said someone couldn't express?

You are damning the protesters for their opinion of the mosque. Granted, I AGREE WITH YOU that its not right, but it is just as much their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to protest (excluding the defacing of property) as much as it is the Muslims right to worship.

I spoke out against an opinion - one of intolerance. One that claims that this is a "Christian nation" (false claim - Treaty of Tripoli, Article XI) and that we need to take our nation back before it gets taken over by the Muslims (all things I have heard in regards to this mosque)

And if you understand that treaty, is was stated in order for the muslims to be assured that religion was not influencing the treaty. Even if a single sentence on a piece of paper says "hey, we're not a christian government", that in no way negates the history of the US, where many came to practice their christian faiths freely and spread the gospel to the new world. Christianity has played a HUGE part in the origins of this country, and I therefore see no falsehood in people claiming this to be a "christian nation" due to 1) its religious ancenstry and 2) the fact that christianity is the most widely practiced religion in this country. But that is neither here nor there.

Yet, really these people are in no place to speak out against the mosque, because the 1st amendment guarantees that these people are allowed to worship freely and peacefully as they wish.

And the 1st amendment ALSO guarantees the right to assemble and protest. They, as a community don't want a mosque. It is perfectly within their right to voice that. It doesn't matter if you deem it intolerant or prejudice. The amendment that you are pointing out on the muslims behalf also validates the rights of the protesters.

And really, I don't see the community speaking out against the mosque as anything that goes against the first ammendment. Saying they don't want a new mosque built is NOT the same as trying to impede the muslims from practicing their religion. Its no different than a town not wanting the "church of wal-mart" to be built in their community. The muslims, if not allowed to construct a new mosque, can quite easily find another place to build one. I think they should be allowed to, but its within the communities right to deny the construction of a building.

This still has nothing to do with the peaceful Muslims who are law abiding American citizens.

Then why is there an outcry over them building a mosque?

It's not "political correctness", it is these people's CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS that we are talking about here. That whole "cautious" attitude is the same attitude that locked up Japanese citizens during World War 2.

Again, it is also the protesters CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS to speak out about it, so stop saying that.

And please, this is NOTHING like the japanese concentration camps. We're talking about a small group of people in a small town voicing their concerns over a building, not an entire country running mad and locking up every muslim they see.

No, they are just protesting these people's constitutional rights to assemble and worship, and vandalizing their property with messages of "Not Welcome"

Again, I disagree with the protesters, but you can't use the 1st amendment to protect the muslims' right to worship, and then completely ignore the SAME amendment's protection of the protestors right to free speech. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Prison Mike]

The residents have a right to state their opinion but their opinions shouldn't be the reason the mosque doesn't get built. This way, everybody gets to use their 1st amendment rights.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Again, I disagree with the protesters, but you can't use the 1st amendment to protect the muslims' right to worship, and then completely ignore the SAME amendment's protection of the protestors right to free speech. It doesn't work that way.

I never said that they COULDN'T voice their opinions. Tell me where I ever stated that. The KKK has the right to voice their opinion too, but that doesn't mean I won't protest that opinion at every possible turn.

As far as the Christian ancestry of our nation, while there is truth to that, the actual GOVERNMENTAL foundation is not Christian, or religious in any way. The founding fathers were mostly freemasons, and of different faiths. Jefferson and Washington often talked about "worshipping according to one's own consciousness", and our actual laws and form of government were largely based on English commonlaw - the only form of government our founding fathers had any experience with - not Christian values. While the Puritans came here for religious purposes, the actual legal foundation of our nation (and the Constitution) is not formed in religion in any way, in fact the opposite, it is formed on allowing people to have the freedom to believe what they want.

And actually, in my researching of this particular topic, I believe that I found that no, it's actually NOT in this community's rights to deny the construction of the mosque simply because they don't "want Muslims in their community" There would have to be actual zoning legalities that prevented this mosque from being constructed. I will have to research further on that topic.

The Muslims have the constitutional right to build their mosque and protest, the Christians have the constitutional right to ***** about it, and I have the constitutional right to protest the Christians, which I very well may do this coming week, as I have heard about a couple events in town to show support for the mosque.

 

[Saint]

"We have a duty to investigate anyone under the banner of Islam," Allen Jackson, the pastor of World Outreach Church, said at the meeting.

"We are fighting these people, for crying out loud, we should not be promoting this."

"They seem to be against everything I believe in, and so I don't want them necessarily in my neighborhood,"

Again, it is also the protesters CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS to speak out about it, so stop saying that.

The real problem is that you keep babbling about free speech when no one in this thread has suggested that these individuals should be prevented from speaking. Yes, everyone here seems aware that the protestors are fully allowed to advertise their own astounding ignorance. The argument here is against the sort of ignorance that makes people actively campaign against the rights of others (as seen in the quotes I've included), not against the protestors' right to speak. Understand that the statement "What they're doing is wrong" is not the same "They do not have the right to do that."

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I have also been doing some research on Islam itself, because I know that while Islam claims to be a religion of peace, there are critics that quote particular passages of the Qur'an stating them to be promoting violence. I have read some of the specific passages to form my own opinion, because I am rather ignorant of Islam, their beliefs and customs, and find the best way to form an opinion on it is to educate myself.

I know there are some posters on here that are particularly familiar with Islam, raybia is one I believe his name is. Without turning this into a pro's and con's of Islam thread, can anyone with any familiarity of the Qur'an and Islam list off some passages that might be of significance? To prevent this thread from going horribly off-topic, I'd be happy to accept them as private messages.

 

[Addendum]

So its okay to express one's faith, but not ones opinions? Can't have one with out the.....oootheeer... If people feel that they need to speak out against something, its their right to do so; the validity of their arguments have no affect on their right to free speech.

The first amendment is applicable when the GOVERNMENT limits free speech, establishes a state church, prevents the free exercise of worship or lack of it, limits the press, preventing citizens from assembling how they so choose, or blocking the ability to petition the government with complaints or for assistance.

A private citizen being critical of a group's opinion is not violating free speech. The horse is tired, get off it.

 

[Alex The Great]

I'm too lazy to read the previous posts, but religion is slowly, and painfully, destroying the world

 

[Alex The Great]

I'm too lazy to read the previous posts, but religion is slowly, and painfully, destroying the world

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

It's not shocking but it's sometimes makes me sad/angry how ignorant people are about my religion. It's not shocking though because the Muslims that most white americans in the media see are darker skined and darker skin equals other/evil in the USA, regardless if some like to acknowlege their prejudices or not.

It's going to be so much better when this nation isn't a white majority anymore. And no I am not saying that all or even most white people are racists who are trying to lynch me. And no I'm not going to say some of my best friends and family are white because that is something a racist black or other ethicity person says to prove that they aren't racist.

It's funny how nobody seems to be afraid of all those white Christain zealots who murder abortion doctors and shoot up Holocust museums. I mean Christains have done plenty of f**ked up things in the name of their g-d for 1000's of years and thats swept under the rug for some reason. There are bad people in every religion but bigots in America won't acknowlege that because most of them rag heads are dark skined. Yee Haw!

 

[Paroxysm]

Firstly, it isn't just "a few radical extremists". If there were just "a few" this war would have been over a long time ago.

When compared to the actual number of Muslins (over a billion), these radical extremists do represent "just a few".

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

A little more fuel to the fire - Lou Ann Zelnick, the Republican candidate for the Congress seat in my district:

http://m.dailykos.com/stories/2010/6/24/879085/-.html

Despite the fact that this comes from a page that seems to be supporting her Democrat opponent, I can confirm that I read this same entire exact quote on her very own website. Unfortunately, I don't have a link for it, if I can find it again, I will post it. However, the opposition against the mosque goes farther than just "a few people in the town", but now also has proponents in government.

 

[zanos]

Where exactly are these muslims getting the money to build a gigantic 52,000 sq ft mosque with a pool, gym, soccer field and allah knows what? I read the one proposed near ground zero would have cost 100 million. Are you serious? Who is flipping the bill to build a 100 million dollar Mosque?!

When compared to the actual number of Muslins (over a billion), these radical extremists do represent "just a few".

Truly radical extremists may be "few" but how many quietly support terrorism and make heroes out of guys like Bin Laden? I think even the ones that don't necessarily support it are indifferent to it. Not so "few" anymore is it?

 

[Saint]

Where exactly are these muslims getting the money to build a gigantic 52,000 sq ft mosque with a pool, gym, soccer field and allah knows what? I read the one proposed near ground zero would have cost 100 million. Are you serious? Who is flipping the bill to build a 100 million dollar Mosque?!



Truly radical extremists may be "few" but how many quietly support terrorism and make heroes out of guys like Bin Laden? I think even the ones that don't necessarily support it are indifferent to it. Not so "few" anymore is it?

Whoops! You forgot that your statement is worthless without data. Your position has about as much value as me saying "I bet a ton of white guys quietly support terrorism! Not so "few" anymore, is it?" Think before you type.

 

[Kane52630]

Where exactly are these muslims getting the money to build a gigantic 52,000 sq ft mosque with a pool, gym, soccer field and allah knows what? I read the one proposed near ground zero would have cost 100 million. Are you serious? Who is flipping the bill to build a 100 million dollar Mosque?!

could the same thing be said with Christians building a huge Church or Jews building a huge synagogue?

 

[Kane52630]

When compared to the actual number of Muslins (over a billion), these radical extremists do represent "just a few".

exactly, the extremists are the few bad apples that made my religion look bad. Seriously we are basically any other religion with a few bad people that makes up look bad.

 

[Maximum Carnage]

These stories piss me off, and it's embarassing for the people that are against the building of these mosques. Embarassing. Build whatever the **** you want to build; that's your FREEDOM here in the United States.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

could the same thing be said with Christians building a huge Church or Jews building a huge synagogue?

World Outreach Church, the church mentioned in the articles where the pastor is protesting the mosque, is freaking HUGE. The room where the pastor gives his sermon is a freaking ampitheatre. I've seen CONCERT VENUES that are smaller than this guy's stage, and audience seating.

An update to the situation though: There is a protest on Wednesday against the building of the mosque. The protesters will be marching through Murfreesboro to the courthouse to deliver a petition they got signed to stop the building of the mosque.

In response, there is a counter protest set for the same day to show support of the mosque being built. The purpose is to show the city council that not everyone is against the mosque being built. Apparently, the mosque has already been approved, and passed all the technicalities, so the protesters are trying to get the ruling overturned.

I will be taking part in the counter protest in support of the mosque. The group that's organizing it has me as a media spokesperson, so I'll be talking to the media and stuff that will be covering it.

 

[RockSP]

It's funny how nobody seems to be afraid of all those white Christain zealots who murder abortion doctors and shoot up Holocust museums. I mean Christains have done plenty of f**ked up things in the name of their g-d for 1000's of years and thats swept under the rug for some reason.

EX mother @#$%ing ACTLY.