Justice League: self contained continuity, or epic crossover?

[MadVillainy]

How is Nolan a dick for saying that? His goal was to make a grounded universe for Batman, not for every DC character, just coz it's not fit for other DC character doesn't make him a dick, that's the story he wanted to tell, Batman and Batman only. I really don't like this angst against Nolan for his decision to focus on just the one character, it comes across as nothing more than DC fanboy whining.

????
Because I dont agree with u I'm whining?
Just because I said somebody makes a dick move doesnt make them a complete dick I never said that. I just think that he ruined an aspect of Batman, which imo is seeing his interactions with other heroes. chill out

 

[Kevin Smith]

Big epic crossover.

They do origins for all the big seven JLAers. They already have done Batman, they're re-introducing Superman, WW origin, GL is an origin, do a Flash origin, and have them lead into JLA. If they can, MM and Aquaman would be great, but they can be introduced in JLA if need be.

If they can't use Bale's Batman, then introduce a new Batman or a Batman like him in a World's Finest film and have him be the Batman in JLA.

 

[Wesley Dodds]

Self-contained. Directed by Peter Jackson with actors in their thirties and forties.
Basically make it an Alex Ross JLA story brought to life.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Self-contained. Directed by Peter Jackson with actors in their thirties and forties.
Basically make it an Alex Ross JLA story brought to life.

I'd be cool with that too, though. t:

 

[MadVillainy]

Big epic crossover.

They do origins for all the big seven JLAers. They already have done Batman, they're re-introducing Superman, WW origin, GL is an origin, do a Flash origin, and have them lead into JLA. If they can, MM and Aquaman would be great, but they can be introduced in JLA if need be.

If they can't use Bale's Batman, then introduce a new Batman or a Batman like him in a World's Finest film and have him be the Batman in JLA.

Thats the right damn idea

 

[Kevin Smith]

Thats the right damn idea

Ha! Thanks. Glad we agree on something.

 

[MadVillainy]

Can somebody give a reason why it should a "self-contained universe-- no connections to any other DC movie(s)"

I havent heard a good reason yet

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Can somebody give a reason why it should a "self-contained universe-- no connections to any other DC movie(s)"

I havent heard a good reason yet

All I'm hearing is "it's too hard" and it can't be done. What WB needs to do is have someone oversee all the projects. Green Lantern seems to be going but they still need WW, Flash, and Aquaman established, but I don't think Aquaman and Flash established in the form of a film before Justice League.

Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern are good enough for films and WB could do Flash and Aquaman after Justice League.

There could be references to prior event in Nolanverse and Donnerverse.

 

[MadVillainy]

All I'm hearing is "it's too hard" and it can't be done. What WB needs to do is have someone oversee all the projects. Green Lantern seems to be going but they still need WW, Flash, and Aquaman established, but I don't think Aquaman and Flash established in the form of a film before Justice League.

Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern are good enough for films and WB could do Flash and Aquaman after Justice League.

There could be references to prior event in Nolanverse and Donnerverse.

If thats what ppl are thinking thats stupid. It would be harder to have other DC film franchises and then a separate JL franchise, than to have one universe.
And if they do a JL film I wouldn't be surprised at all if it has no connection to the Nolanverse

 

[Timstuff]

The thing about the Nolanverse, is that even though there is no reference to other heroes existing in it, that doesn't mean that it's not possible. Most superhero movies do take place in a fairly "normal" real world setting until the hero shows up, so if there is a DC movieverse that stretches across multiple films, I don't see why they can't simply explain that Batman was the first of costumed mystery man. By the time they do a Justice League movie Nolan will probably be done with the franchise anyway, and I doubt he'd pitch a fit if the Justice League version of Batman is not distanced from his version.

I mean, think about it-- they would have to DELIBERATELY show the audience that these are not the same versions of the characters as in the other films, which would likely include recapping their origins in a way that is different from their origin films-- and that would just be more work than it's worth. It would be easier to simply let the audience accept the characters as being the same as in the other films, and make sure not to do anything that noticeably contradicts the other DC hero films. If people see Batman roaring up in a huge armored batmobile and step out where TDK style armor, it's easy enough to make the connection that this is the same Batman we've seen before, so they would have to do something crazy like have him wearing gray tights for people to naturally presume otherwise.

The "it's too hard" excuse and the "Nolan's Batman-verse is incompatible" don't seem logical to me. If by the time the JLA movie releases all the key heroes have gotten origin films anyway, why not simply use them as backstory for the film instead of wasting precious screen time distancing it from them? The only thing difficult would be getting the actors from the various films together into an ensamble and keeping the budget under 200 million, but even if things did get expensive it would be worth it. Getting Bale back might be tricky, but I wouldn't rule it out. And even if he did turn it down, they could instead use the JLA film as an opportunity to introduce the audience to the next Batman actor, who will take over in Batman 4 since Bale's likely only going to do a trilogy anyway.

I do not see any good reason why an actual crossover would not work in a JLA movie. As long as Warner Bros. has the vision and the patience, they can make it happen.

 

[MadVillainy]

The thing about the Nolanverse, is that even though there is no reference to other heroes existing in it, that doesn't mean that it's not possible.

Im just basing it on what Christopher Noan (the director of the films) said himself. If he doesnt want his Batman with other heroes I would respect that after all he was the one who helped make the film series that legitamized superhero movies.

The "it's too hard" excuse and the "Nolan's Batman-verse is incompatible" don't seem logical to me. If by the time the JLA movie releases all the key heroes have gotten origin films anyway, why not simply use them as backstory for the film instead of wasting precious screen time distancing it from them? The only thing difficult would be getting the actors from the various films together into an ensamble and keeping the budget under 200 million, but even if things did get expensive it would be worth it.

Co sign. And even if the budget is over 200 mill I bet that the film would make it back. OT: Whats the Avenger's budget?

And even if he did turn it down, they could instead use the JLA film as an opportunity to introduce the audience to the next Batman actor, who will take over in Batman 4 since Bale's likely only going to do a trilogy anyway.

Bingo.....or have a Batman film released right before a JL film like what Marvel is doing for Captain America/Avengers.



I keep using The Avengers as an example because if Marvel can even put a plan in motion to make that movie then WB should be able to make a JL film

 

[The Guard]

There's really no reason a JLA film need address the specifics of any other solo movies, whether that be to prove it's part of them or otherwise. I don't see why the stories of the solo superhero films should be used as backstory for the JLA film at all, beyond the basic elements the characters have always had, I.E, Batman comes from Gotham, Clark Kent works at the Daily Planet, etc.

JLA should not be about the individual origins or stories of the heroes on any level. It should simply be about the characters in the context of the team they are on, or serving with.

At some point people, including creators, need to start understanding and accepting the following:

Batman is Batman. Chris Nolan did not create him, and did not perfect him, and if a Batman appears in a JLA film, people should not be wondering "Gosh, is this Chris Nolan's Batman with the trappings of the source material, or is this a NEW Batman with the trappings of the source material?". The same goes for any other JLA character worked on by any director.

 

[BATZARRO WWD]

Agreed. Superman Returns and Nolan's films have their own archs, and I don't think Superkid or Harvey Dent would play any part in a Justice League film. You do not need to show Batman and Superman's origin. It's safe to say everyone knows them at least somewhat.

Nobody asked for a self contained continuity when JLM was originally announced. Then Avengers was announced, and then it was the only choice.
It's not that it's too hard, it's that it is not worth it. Superman's film franchise is in the Phantom Zone, and we don't full know about Green Lantern. As for Nolan's Batman films, that pussycat don't want you to rub her belly. Who know where that franchise is headed? And won't people get angry at all the threading on Nolan's film issue again? Only this time, it'll be that they are ruining the cancer-curing greatness of (3rd Batman film title). Seriously, they should never do a Batman film after that!

What good can possibly come of tying those 3 continuities?

 

[Timstuff]

I'm not sayign that they need to include every single detail of the solo movies in order to prove that the JLA movie is connected to them, but I do think that they should avoid contradicting what gets set down by the other films, or at least not in ways you'd pick up without analyzing the film carefully (as with any plot hole / continuity error). I'm simply saying that they don't have to go into any backstory details that weren't already covered by the solo films, because it's already taken care of. Why do we need to know that Bruce Wayne's parents died taking him home from The Gray Ghost when we saw in Batman Begins they were going home from Faust? If people want backstory as to where our main 5 (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash) came from, there will already be 5 movies they can watch to find out. It'd be counter productive to undo all of that backstory, and while there's no need to have Bruce go referencing things like Harvey Dent or Rachel, I do think that it'd be wise to pay attention to continuity while writing the film.

As I said earlier, I think ideally the JLA movie should come out after WB's other hero movies have been successfully launched, and that would likely include the "re-introduction" (or more likely, "reboot") of Superman, and the third Batman movie. The best-case scenario for me would be if they can put together an ensemble cast containing all the key actors from the standalone films, and if that's the case then there's really no point at all in trying to distance it from the standalone films. There might be a different Batman actor if Bale doesn't want to play him again after Batman 3, but like I've said, that would just open up the opportunity to use the JLA movie to introduce the audience to a new actor who will also transition into the Nolanless, Baleless Batman 4. I'd prefer to see Bale in the JLA movie, but even if he doesn't show WB can still use the movie to tie things together nicely.

I think that JLA's story should be self contained in that you don't need to have seen all of the other movies to understand or appreciate it, however I don't think that that should stop them from building on the movies that come before it, and tying things together in a way that you can view it all as a single universe through the movie. Likewise, your enjoyment of the solo films should not be limited based on whether or not you've seen JLA, and if you'd rather not acknowledge it and simply go on viewing the Nolan Batman films as their own universe, nothing will be stopping you. If they really want the JLA movie to feel like a truly epic team up of classic heroes though, I'd rather they go all the way. I know it's becoming a bit cliched to make a Marvel comparison, but if Marvel doesn't need separate, "elseworlds" versions of Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, and Captain America for the Avengers, then why can't DC do something similar with its own heroes?

 

[protocida]

It could be a crossover. The only problem is the Batman franchise.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I'd like to see a "movie universe" for Dc, same as what Marvel is trying to do with THEIR characters.

 

[The Guard]

Let's get something straight. WB is not Marvel Studios. WB does not have the luxury of only making superhero-related projects. That's just not how it is.

What Marvel is doing is pretty cool, but ultimately, not exactly what JLA requires. JLA isn't some pseudo-government black ops organization brought together by an outside organization. It's a bunch of heroes realizing they need to come together to combat greater threats. That concept doesn't require, even at it's most complex level, a series of realizations from movie to movie. It simply requires showing that they came together, and their recognition of why, via a, drumroll please...greater threat.

And let's face it, the quality of Marvel's approach has yet to be determined. Recent Marvel films have been, with the exception of IRON MAN, pretty average to subpar. There's no guarantee Zak Penn's AVENGERS will be any good, either. IRON MAN was fun, THE INCREDIBLE HULK was decent, at best. A hint that there's a larger universe makes the codas of those movies slightly more interesting, but not the movies themselves.

The reason not to show the origins of the DC heros is simple. Their respective origins are largely irrelevant to the basic concept of the JLA. Even in the comics, whenever "origin stuff" comes into play, it often feels forced, and more like a shorthand way to explain character's motivations than actually delving into them. I.E, want to explore Bruce Wayne's conflict? Have him and Superman flashback to their origins every five issues, instead of exploring their similarities and differences.

If some creator comes up with a fantastic JUSTICE LEAGUE project, one that makes sense, that is well done, that WB is willing to make and bankroll, and one that talented, appropriate actors are available for and enthusiastic about, I'm not going to "No! Wait seven to ten years in the hopes that maybe Christian Bale, whoever plays Green Lantern, whoever plays Wonder Woman, whoever plays The Flash, and whoever might play Aquaman, J'onn J'onnz, etc, etc, etc would want to make that movie as well as one to three of their own!"

That's. Just. Silly.

It's all about the project. It should be about the project, first and foremost, not how it ties into the other heroes movies. I get it. In a perfect world, we'd get two or three DC hero films a year, and a Justice League movie to follow.

This isn't a perfect world. Copout or not, there are logistics involved that make such a thing very, very difficult, and frankly, a little unrealistic, although who knows, maybe that's what will happen.

As far as continuity issues...you all want JLA to avoid contradicting or treading on what is set down in the other movies?

Here's a simple idea that people, for some baffling reason, seem to be unable to pick up on:

Simply don't address the other movies and their events and supporting characters at all.

Don't talk about Superman's son or him leaving the Earth, the details of the Batpod, or the fall of Harvey Dent (although, if you did, these things could STILL exist in a JLA universe, and simply not DRIVE it).

Now, of course it's not that simple, but at the same time, it's not that difficult either. Give me an example of something you don't want to see in JLA or something you don't want treaded over, and I'll show you what I mean.

Why do we need to know that Bruce Wayne's parents died taking him home from The Gray Ghost when we saw in Batman Begins they were going home from Faust?

Why, pray tell, would any JLA writer bother to make this alteration? Bruce Wayne's parents were killed, period. Why would a JLA movie writer, knowing that some people would be sensitive to the details, ever address the details of this stuff?

It'd be counter productive to undo all of that backstory, and while there's no need to have Bruce go referencing things like Harvey Dent or Rachel, I do think that it'd be wise to pay attention to continuity while writing the film.

Pay attention to continuity in what sense?

I think that JLA's story should be self contained in that you don't need to have seen all of the other movies to understand or appreciate it, however I don't think that that should stop them from building on the movies that come before it, and tying things together in a way that you can view it all as a single universe through the movie.

Examples, please, if you don't mind.

Likewise, your enjoyment of the solo films should not be limited based on whether or not you've seen JLA, and if you'd rather not acknowledge it and simply go on viewing the Nolan Batman films as their own universe, nothing will be stopping you. If they really want the JLA movie to feel like a truly epic team up of classic heroes though, I'd rather they go all the way. I know it's becoming a bit cliched to make a Marvel comparison, but if Marvel doesn't need separate, "elseworlds" versions of Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, and Captain America for the Avengers, then why can't DC do something similar with its own heroes?

I agree. A JLA film should simply be written so that it doesn't delve too deeply into the details of any hero's past or future adventures or fates to prevent confusion or continuity issues for people who care about such things. Sort of like every issue of JLA ever written, with a few hiccups.

In my mind, with only a few movies/characters to worry about, and not YEARS and YEARS of stories like the comics, all this requires is a little common sense. I.E, you don't show things like major characters dying that are planned or wished to have future adventures that take place after the timeframe JLA is set in. This really shouldn't be a confusing concept.
Only fans call the concept of a JLA movie that doesn't directly reference the other DC movies "Elseworlds". It's JLA. It doesn't NEED to reference those other specific details that aren't broad themes inherent to each character. As I've said, Batman is Batman, Superman is Superman, etc.

I mean, this is literally the SMALLEST issue fans should have concerns over.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

To me, a few small references to movies before wouldn't be bad. It wouldn't be too hard to have continuity even if you have different actors.

 

[Timstuff]

The Guard, I am mostly in agreement with you. I don't want to see a 100% copy of Marvel's approach, where the solo films carry a sub plot that leads into the team up film-- I'd rather the entire story of the Justice League's formation to fight a common, powerful threat be contained in one film rather than spilling into the others. The JLA's formation is not the same as the Avengers, and I'd say it lends itself better to being explained within one film than the Avengers does.

The one place where I would disagree though, is that I think it'd be worth the extra time and money involved to try and get most of the solo films' stars involved. If they did that, then the event of a JLA movie would feel like something even more grand and spectacular. It could still work with a separate cast from the solo films, but the idea of them going the extra mile to make it into all it can be would really get me excited. It would the ultimate fulfillment of the idea that there is a "DC movie universe."

 

[The Guard]

Hey, if they can get the solo film's stars involved in a JLA, more power to them.

 

[Timstuff]

According to producer Charles Roven, it looks like Warner Bros. might actually be taking a hint from Marvel, as I suggested!

http://movies.ign.com/articles/103/1031624p1.html

"I was involved at one point with The Flash," said Roven. "And Warner Bros. came to me and said, 'The work that you've been doing hasn't yet resulted in something that any of us, including the filmmaking team, feel could be greenlit as a movie. We're trying to accomplish something that takes into account the entire, rich DC character world, and we'd like to pull it back. That doesn't mean that you aren't going to be a part of it. We just want to take a different kind of approach. Do you mind if we try that?' If we had something that was really working…"

 

[Webhead2006]

well yea that is probably the case now since they see it probably easier thing to do. But for wb end they still need to first get superman back in place, get flash/ww films out there and then we can see what will happen for a jl film. But we are probably so far away from solo to jl movie anyway. With the rate wb takes at getting dc guys out there.

 

[Heretic]

Superman doesn't need any changing...

At the end of Returns, Lois had a kid with some dude and Supes was going to be a friend from afar.

So, the next movie has very little need to show those people unless you think that Superman only meets 4 or 5 people over the course of his life. You have a massive event in space requiring attention, Supes flies to investigate and spends 2 hours fighting Darksied or something. How Perry White's son plays into that scenario escapes me...

Take my life for instance. I have a girlfriend, best friends etc. However, when I g ut on tour or into the studio to record, I don't cross paths with my friends for months at a time. They don't randomly show up to help write a song...so why would Lois be required to show up to help stop Braniac????

You simply...keep life moving.

The same thing can be applied to a JLA movie.

Let's bring it to reality again...

We all have lives that never cross. Then, one day there's a massive comic convention that we all want to go to, and we all end up in the same place for a singular cause. There is no need to discuss our sons, dead girlfriends etc. We simply enjoy the convention and go back to our lives.

Why can't movie characters do that?? They live their lives, a massive threat comes to earth so they all gather to stop it, then they go back home. You really dont need any of the individual franchises supporting casts or backstories. The viewer can simply place whatever continuity they want onto the characters.

 

[Webhead2006]

well we all know right now SR pretty much isnt going to be getting a sequel now and superman wont be continuing off from that. So first superman needs to be moved into a better direction, and then we need to get others out there before we get jl. And with how long it takes for any dc guy to get a solo film, we are likely so far away from jl.

 

[E-Man]

This is a tough one, because I can see it working well both ways. I really don't have a preference, but I think that self contained is the easiest route. That way you don't have to rely on other films to keep get the crossover feel. As of right now there is only 2 movie franchises with JLAers out in Batman and Superman, and GL is coming in 2011. If the movie was a crossover it would have to wait for more movies to really get a crossover feel IMO. They'd have to wait on Wonder Woman and Flash movies,or they'd have to reference them. With a self contained movie you wouldn't have to rely on that, and you could always do spinoffs for characters that haven't had movies prior to the JLA movie.