Comics Keeping or Dropping ASM?

[iloveclones]

This isn't about you admitting you're wrong. This is about proving you're right, which you still haven't done at all. Yes, illegaly downloading comics and music IS stealing, however that is not the main subject of argument here. You still fail to prove that reading a comic in a store or listening to a C-D on the Barnes and Noble headphones are acts against the law. Show me the law that saids these are verbotten acts and I'll admit that I'm wrong. So far all of your claims are subjective or biased opinion, none of which are conclusive fact or concrete proof.

First of, I never compared it to listening to music or reading books at B&N where they clearly give you the venue (seats and headphones) to do so. You did. I am under no obligation to make an argument for a comparison that you made.

I compared it to sneaking into a movie. Where you get to "enjoy" the movie and not have to pay for it. (And before the lame arguments begin, by "enjoy", I mean: watching and listening to the movie in a venue that everyone else paid money for. Whether or not you liked it is beside the point.) Incidentally, my brother and I were stopped by the police trying to sneak into a drive-in. And guess what? We didn't go to jail. Not because it wasn't "illegal." It was. but I'm pretty sure the cop didn't want to send a couple of doofus teenagers to jail because they wanted to see Tron.

Second, I never said anything about it being illegal, you guys did. I said it was stealing. You can steal from your parents and not go to jail. You can steal cable and not go to jail. I have tenants, and when they start to skip on rent, I damn well consider it stealing from me. I don't send them to jail. In fact, they are protected from that. It is still stealing.

Why don't you ask Dan Slott what he thinks about downloading comics? He works to produces those things. The more he sells, the more he gets paid. It is stealing even if it isn't illegal. Why do you think SHH bans giving out sites where you can do it? Because they obviously feel the same way.

 

[shinlyle]

Okay, first off "Sales=Quality" is stupid. If that were the case, then the last two Pirates movies wouldn't have sucked. If you're trying to tell me that ASM is better than "Fables" or "Y:The Last Man" or "Daredevil" just because it sales more copies, then you're crazy. No. Sales DOES however determine whether Marvel will continue in the smae direction with a character or book. If Marvel sees no decrease in sales, they WILL continue to do their own thing, as they aren't suffering financially. If the sales are in freefall where reader after reader drops the book due to poor storytelling/artwork/or displeasure with the current trends, then you can bet your ass that they will change things to win back the fans.

That's why, as soon as OMD is over, I'm going to drop ASM. Basically, the marriage ends, and they push the candy-like "RESET" button, then I'm out. I'll take the 12 bucks a month that ASM would cost me, and go back to buying the back issues....ah, the glorious back issues! You know, the ones where that magic happened that Joe Q is trying so desperately to recapture? Yeah...I can read how better creators did it, as oppose to reading rehashed BS over and over again.

Yes, if the marriage ends, I WILL drop the book. I'm going to at LEAST give Spidey until the end of "One More Day", but if the marriage ends, FOR WHATEVER REASON, I'm out. I have no interest in reading about single Peter Parker...and if I do, there's ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN, which has really won me back over the last few issues. If nothing else, they haven't once had to hit the RESET button, so that makes it at least that much better than ASM.

Either way, vote with your wallets. I am.

 

[Sloth7d]

First of, I never compared it to listening to music or reading books at B&N where they clearly give you the venue (seats and headphones) to do so. You did. I am under no obligation to make an argument for a comparison that you made.

Whether you accept the comparrison or not, it's the best example. Barns and Noble has chairs in some of the isles with books too. I can't think of any better way of displaying them wanting you to read the book.

I compared it to sneaking into a movie. Where you get to "enjoy" the movie and not have to pay for it. (And before the lame arguments begin, by "enjoy", I mean: watching and listening to the movie in a venue that everyone else paid money for. Whether or not you liked it is beside the point.) Incidentally, my brother and I were stopped by the police trying to sneak into a drive-in. And guess what? We didn't go to jail. Not because it wasn't "illegal." It was. but I'm pretty sure the cop didn't want to send a couple of doofus teenagers to jail because they wanted to see Tron.

Sneaking into a movie and reading a comic are two completely different things that are uncomparable. On one hand you're completely tresspassing on private property. On another you are browsing through a book. Paying for possession and paying for entrance are completely different things.

If I can listen to Kanye West entire C-D at Barnes and Noble, but never buy it, is that stealing? I clearly enjoyed it. I didn't buy it. Obviously I'm stealing.

Second, I never said anything about it being illegal, you guys did. I said it was stealing. You can steal from your parents and not go to jail. You can steal cable and not go to jail. I have tenants, and when they start to skip on rent, I damn well consider it stealing from me. I don't send them to jail. In fact, they are protected from that. It is still stealing.

No law against reading a book in a store. There are laws against the other things you mentioned and you can go to jail for that. Whether you choose to report it or not is up to you. I can't help the decisions you make.
But unless you leave the store with the comic in hand without paying for it, you are not considered to be stealing it. That's how it is. Show me one law that saids otherwise. If the vender really didn't want you reading it they would seal it in a plastic wrap like Shonen Jump magazine, Playboy, or other books.

Why don't you ask Dan Slott what he thinks about downloading comics? He works to produces those things. The more he sells, the more he gets paid. It is stealing even if it isn't illegal. Why do you think SHH bans giving out sites where you can do it? Because they obviously feel the same way.

Dude, downloading comics IS illegal. It's no different than downloading music. I never disputed that. It's still not illegal or stealing to read a comic book in a store. You can throw as many biased or subjective scenarios, opinions, or comparisons as you want, but the fact remains it's completey legal. If it was stealing it'd be illegal.

 

[iloveclones]

Whether you accept the comparrison or not, it's the best example. Barns and Noble has chairs in some of the isles with books too. I can't think of any better way of displaying them wanting you to read the book.



Sneaking into a movie and reading a comic are two completely different things that are uncomparable. On one hand you're completely tresspassing on private property. On another you are browsing through a book. Paying for possession and paying for entrance are completely different things.

If I can listen to Kanye West entire C-D at Barnes and Noble, but never buy it, is that stealing? I clearly enjoyed it. I didn't buy it. Obviously I'm stealing.



No law against reading a book in a store. There are laws against the other things you mentioned and you can go to jail for that. Whether you choose to report it or not is up to you. I can't help the decisions you make.
But unless you leave the store with the comic in hand without paying for it, you are not considered to be stealing it. That's how it is. Show me one law that saids otherwise. If the vender really didn't want you reading it they would seal it in a plastic wrap like Shonen Jump magazine, Playboy, or other books.
.

Please stop saying that I'm saying that reading at B&N is illegal. I. didn't. say. that. You did. Enjoy Kanye all you want. I don't know why you would want to.

And throw someone in jail for not paying rent? Please. How naive are you? That's not how the system works. I can merely evict them, which allows them to steal from me for 3 more months, because that is how long the process usually takes. Are you actually trying to say that they aren't stealing from me because they aren't in jail?

 

[Traveller]

Definitely will be keeping. Whatever it is that happens I'm not nearly as uptight about it as most here...so, there's that.

Then there's the whole fact that Dan Slott will be the writer of ASM for that month period. And basically every Spider-Man fan has been begging for Slott to be put on the title. I'd be a ****ing ****** not to stick with the title, what with Dan "I was born to write the Amazing Spider-Man" Slott on that bad boy!

It'll be interesting how things go. If a bunch of people drop the title and the sales do go down...well, the only person that they're hurting is Dan Slott. Then what happens is they take Slott off and then rearrange their plans to have some crazy superstar writer and artist team come on for a life changing storyline.

So, it'll be interesting to watch some Spidey fans sort of screw themselves, which for the past three years they have in certain respects.

I agree with you in every aspect.

 

[Traveller]

I'll still be reading it. As bad as I think the idea is of no more marrige, I'll be buying mainly for the creative teams that we're getting.

Think about as the new Amazing series would be an Untold Tales series.
If they drop the marriage and take us back into the 80' or the 70' with Gwen or Harry or anything, we can read the new stories as if they would be miniseries with past stories. As like the Death and Destiny or the Spider-Man: Blue, for example. I'd like to read some classic stories with Harry and Gwen and Ms. Muggins from Dan Slott, for sure.

 

[Sloth7d]

Please stop saying that I'm saying that reading at B&N is illegal. I. didn't. say. that. You did.

If you agree it isn't illegal then just accept the fact that it's not stealing. If it was then it'd be illegal.

 

[CConn]

It is not all about sales.

Sales count for jack in terms of maintaining the high standards of continuity that had been adhered to for 40+ years of Spider-man comics until SP happened.

Sales also count for nothing in terms of depicting members of the cast in character, or the validity of progression in favor of regression in ASM.

These are the things we care about.

But quality is a solid neverchanging thing. Quality is in the eye of the beholder. Y'know, some people HATE All Star Batman, yet some people LOVE it. Does that mean it's bad? Does that mean it's good? How do you tell? If you're a publisher how to you tell if what you're doing is right, if people like it?

No, it's not all about sales - especially with us the readers. But looking at it from a publisher's point of view, why on earth would you change anything about a book if (a) you like it, (b) it's bring you tons of sales and readership, and (c) there's really little evidence beyond a few annoying message board posters telling you it's bad.

I'm not saying it isn't bad. Not at all. What I am saying is that there's no way that Marvel will ever know that it's bad unless they see their sales start to slip. And - despite everyone's *****ing - ASM's sales are not slipping. Which makes me wonder if (a) some of you are lying about not buying it or (b) your collective opinion isn't a good representation of how most people feel about the books.

 

[Blader5489]

Okay, first off "Sales=Quality" is stupid.

No one is arguing that sales = quality. But from a financial standpoint, sales determine creative direction. If OMD ends the marriage but ends up as a commercial success, then Marvel believes that people supported the end of the marriage.

Vote with your dollars. If you buy OMD, you support OMD. Simple as that.

 

[DACrowe]

We'll have a better judge whether people like the change in January after the first "new hot cool special shocking event" in aka Brand New Day. If books after Slott's first 3 issue arc drop, rise or remain the same, will tell whether fans like the new direction or not.

 

[iloveclones]

If you agree it isn't illegal then just accept the fact that it's not stealing. If it was then it'd be illegal.

I don't. And it is.

(How long do you really want to keep doing this? )

 

[iloveclones]

Think about as the new Amazing series would be an Untold Tales series.
If they drop the marriage and take us back into the 80' or the 70' with Gwen or Harry or anything, we can read the new stories as if they would be miniseries with past stories. As like the Death and Destiny or the Spider-Man: Blue, for example. I'd like to read some classic stories with Harry and Gwen and Ms. Muggins from Dan Slott, for sure.

Mrs. Muggins. One of the all-time under-rated cast members.

 

[Dangerous]

But quality is a solid neverchanging thing. Quality is in the eye of the beholder. Y'know, some people HATE All Star Batman, yet some people LOVE it. Does that mean it's bad? Does that mean it's good? How do you tell? If you're a publisher how to you tell if what you're doing is right, if people like it?

No, it's not all about sales - especially with us the readers. But looking at it from a publisher's point of view, why on earth would you change anything about a book if (a) you like it, (b) it's bring you tons of sales and readership, and (c) there's really little evidence beyond a few annoying message board posters telling you it's bad.

I'm not saying it isn't bad. Not at all. What I am saying is that there's no way that Marvel will ever know that it's bad unless they see their sales start to slip. And - despite everyone's *****ing - ASM's sales are not slipping. Which makes me wonder if (a) some of you are lying about not buying it or (b) your collective opinion isn't a good representation of how most people feel about the books.

Quality is recognised in the eyes of most long of term readers, and or, those who grasp the basics of what makes the series great. Amongst these principles, are a generally tight rein over continuity and it being adhered to correctly, and the main cast being portrayed in character. Another somewhat revered aspect of the comics, is that it has always felt as if ASM depicts the unfolding story of PP’s life. That however slow, he has been aging all this time.

I don’t care about All Star Batman.
Since I don’t read the book, your reference is pointless.

I don’t expect the current Marvel EIC and Spider-editorial to change anything about what they are doing. All they seem to care about is stirring up controversy by creating some of the worst (scrap that,- THE worst) most out of character Spider-Man storylines that have ever seen print.

That is why they have got to go, they don’t even care that they are trashing the characters legacy together w/ the defining work of past creators.

As for the sales drop, I hope it comes once they erase the marriage. Unfortunately JQ is not stupid, so he is sticking the industries hottest creators on the book come BND to try and keep the sales up, as he knows readers are gonna be pissed. I hope it blows up in his face.

 

[Dangerous]

If the vender really didn't want you reading it they would seal it in a plastic wrap like Shonen Jump magazine, Playboy, or other books.

We don't have that problem in the UK.

Playboy right down to the nasty smut mags (most of em) are all there for anyone to browse at their leisure in most newsagents and supermarkets.

Although in independent newsagents, they are the type of place where the store guys will remind you it ain't a library.

 

[Sloth7d]

I don't. And it is.

(How long do you really want to keep doing this? )

You still haven't proven your case. I should be asking you that.

 

[Sloth7d]

We don't have that problem in the UK.

Playboy right down to the nasty smut mags (most of em) are all there for anyone to browse at their leisure in most newsagents and supermarkets.

Although in independent newsagents, they are the type of place where the store guys will remind you it ain't a library.

Those must be some sticky book stands.

 

[Dangerous]

It ain't THAT relaxed.

 

[CConn]

You're continuing to ignore my point; to the executives who run Marvel money is the only thing that matters. And as long as the sales are high, they are never going to go. They'll either die in the position or retire very rich men.

As for the sales drop, I hope it comes once they erase the marriage. Unfortunately JQ is not stupid, so he is sticking the industries hottest creators on the book come BND to try and keep the sales up, as he knows readers are gonna be pissed. I hope it blows up in his face.

But it won't. It'll sell just as high as The Other or Civil War. Just watch.

 

[Gabbra49]

I miss the good old days when writers actually cared about the characters they were writing. I hope things get better but i fear they are only going to get worse.

 

[Dangerous]

You're continuing to ignore my point; to the executives who run Marvel money is the only thing that matters. And as long as the sales are high, they are never going to go. They'll either die in the position or retire very rich men.
But it won't. It'll sell just as high as The Other or Civil War. Just watch.

I'm not ignoring your point, you just keep stating the obvious- that market penetration influences what path future storylines will take, and that while sales are high nothing will change.

We all know this, do you want a gold medal for pointing it out?
I'm just saying that for anyone w/ any credibility involved in Spidey comics,- from creators to fans,- the most important thing is the quality of the product above all else.

It does not have to be Roger Stern/JRJR standard for me to respect the creators and their work,
but what is going on now and has been for the past few years, is the equivalent to them pissing in our mouths.

 

[Gabbra49]

wow thats being kind dangerous i would say its more like a number 2 in the mouth. Just thought i would extrapolate on to what you said.

 

[farmernudie]

Obviously, there will be an illusion of sales being great after OMD....JQ stacked the books with hot creators...and is calling it all "Amazing"...which to be frank i've read tons of fanboys just go crazy with glee over these announcements...and frankly it won't matter what the STORYLINE is because many will buy it for the creators.

Heck, i am excited about some of the creator announcements too....however, it is not THAT exciting to me that i will forget about where they are taking the character and blindly read just because it is Slott or McNiven or someone....

I think it is too bad JQ isn't giving the fans these great announcements under NORMAL cirmcumstances....instead of under his AGENDA to break up the marriage and FORCE a broken marriage into place.

 

[iloveclones]

You still haven't proven your case. I should be asking you that.

Believe it or not, it's not my job. Ask mommy and daddy.

 

[iloveclones]

I'm not ignoring your point, you just keep stating the obvious- that market penetration influences what path future storylines will take, and that while sales are high nothing will change.

We all know this, do you want a gold medal for pointing it out?
I'm just saying that for anyone w/ any credibility involved in Spidey comics,- from creators to fans,- the most important thing is the quality of the product above all else.

It does not have to be Roger Stern/JRJR standard for me to respect the creators and their work,
but what is going on now and has been for the past few years, is the equivalent to them pissing in our mouths.

Let me ask you this, Dangerous? Why do you guys get to set yourselves up as the arbiters of all things Spidey? I've been reading since the mid-70s. I can think of maybe 5 people on these boards that have a more complete collection than I do. Does that not give my opinion a little weight? Doesn't that put me in the category of "anyone w/ any credibility involved in Spidey comics?" I've been enjoying JMS' run. Does my opinion count? Or does it only count if you can be angry, bitter, and make disgusting analogies?

 

[Doc Destruction]

How in the hell can you have the run from the 70's on and still enjoy the heaping pile of crap JMS has dropped on ASM since Sins Past (I enjoyed his run until then)?

I have the same run as you, and ASM has been a hellish abomination for quite some time now.