Lee Bermejo and Brian Azzarello's Joker Graphic Novel

[Daredevil_2003]

Can you offer something better from the comics to refute it?

Well, given that we're citing non-canon stories, here, how about....uhhhh...this book?

I get the joke. I don't buy how he did it. It's not his style to kill like that no matter what the punchline.

Says you. Other's disagree. Until DC publishes a pamphlet stating what is/isn't The Joker and what he would/wouldn't do nobodies really wrong or right.

That's not debateable at all. If Barbara had been sexually assaulted, we'd have been told. If the victim had been found in a state of undress, which Barbara was, they'd have checked for signs of sexual assault.

When the doctor and Bullock were telling Batman what happened in the hospital, and the state of Barbara's condition, nobody mentioned sexual assault. Hardly something you neglect to mention. And not something that wouldn't haunt Barbara.

Yes, it is. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence...You can't say it's not possible same as I can't say it happened. Therefore the 'it's debateable' part...not to mention I've seen the debate before on various boards, might have even been here.

 

[Daredevil_2003]

Joker sees himself as a classy villain who kills with style and panache. Cutting off the skin from a man's body is gross, disgusting, messy, and not Joker's style at all.

Frying someone into a piece of kentucky fried chicken isn't? What about sticking a bomb in someones guts? Squirting acid in their face? Beating them to a pulp with a crowbar? None of that's messy, disgusting, or gross?

I admire your dedication but all that stuff is canon (cept for the bomb thing, I know it was in TDK but I dont remember an instance from the comics).

EDIT: And while we're still on TKJ, how is shooting a poor woman in the spine and undressing her and taking photos and even possibly raping her not disgusting?

The Joker is a disgusting man. Nothing is too out there for him, as long as he finds it funny or in some way makes sense.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

See the way I look at Joker is that he would do anything, absolutely anything that he thinks will cause some one pain so he can laugh about it. He paralised Barbara just to make Jim go mad. He obviously gets a crack out of people going nuts like him. He would also do anything no matter how brutal if it is necessary for his grand plans. ie. planting a bomb inside one of his own goons. Thats why he is the ultimate villain, he has no limits, there is no limits to his pure awfulness. He may like to come across as refined in a twisted sorta way, but this guy is evil, pure evil, he does things just for the crack of doing them.

 

[The Joker]

Well, given that we're citing non-canon stories, here, how about....uhhhh...this book?

This book contradicts Joker's behavioural history. The other one didn't. Which book would you place more credence on? One that stays true to the character's history, or one which doesn't?

Says you. Other's disagree.

And others agree with me, too.

Until DC publishes a pamphlet stating what is/isn't The Joker and what he would/wouldn't do nobodies really wrong or right.

True. Until then, I'll base my judgement on his 60+ years of comic book history.

Yes, it is. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence...You can't say it's not possible same as I can't say it happened. Therefore the 'it's debateable' part...not to mention I've seen the debate before on various boards, might have even been here.

How is it debateable? What scrap of evidence have you got that says it could have happened? Just because nobody said it means it could have happened? This is not something as simple as Joker stealing her purse before he left. It's rape.

If she had been sexually assaulted, Barbara, Batman, Jim Gordon, Dick Grayson.....someone would have mentioned it by now, and we both know it. It's not something that's swept under the rug.

Frying someone into a piece of kentucky fried chicken isn't? What about sticking a bomb in someones guts? Squirting acid in their face? Beating them to a pulp with a crowbar? None of that's messy, disgusting, or gross?

Nope. None of that is nearly on the scale of physically peeling the skin off a man's entire body with a knife. It's like cutting a smile onto people's faces, or ramming a pencil into a mobster's eye.

Did you find any of that a gross sight to see? Shocking, yes, but not gross. Amateur night in dixie in disgustingness compared to skinning someone alive.

EDIT: And while we're still on TKJ, how is shooting a poor woman in the spine and undressing her and taking photos and even possibly raping her not disgusting?

It is. But again, it's not remotely on the scale of skinning a man. Which would make you feel more sick? Watching someone taking pictures of a naked woman with a gunshot wound in her stomach, or watching someone slice the skin off a man's entire body.

I mean seriously, think about it.

The Joker is a disgusting man. Nothing is too out there for him, as long as he finds it funny or in some way makes sense.

Joker has no limits as to who he murders. But the method, style, and performance is everything to him.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well Harley was the one holding the bowie knife, maybe she did it and Joker just watched and laughed.

 

[Daredevil_2003]

This book contradicts Joker's behavioural history. The other one didn't. Which book would you place more credence on? One that stays true to the character's history, or one which doesn't?



And others agree with me, too.



True. Until then, I'll base my judgement on his 60+ years of comic book history.



How is it debateable? What scrap of evidence have you got that says it could have happened? Just because nobody said it means it could have happened? This is not something as simple as Joker stealing her purse before he left. It's rape.

If she had been sexually assaulted, Barbara, Batman, Jim Gordon, Dick Grayson.....someone would have mentioned it by now, and we both know it. It's not something that's swept under the rug.



Nope. None of that is nearly on the scale of physically peeling the skin off a man's entire body with a knife. It's like cutting a smile onto people's faces, or ramming a pencil into a mobster's eye.

Did you find any of that a gross sight to see? Shocking, yes, but not gross. Amateur night in dixie in disgustingness compared to skinning someone alive.



It is. But again, it's not remotely on the scale of skinning a man. Which would make you feel more sick? Watching someone taking pictures of a naked woman with a gunshot wound in her stomach, or watching someone slice the skin off a man's entire body.

I mean seriously, think about it.



Joker has no limits as to who he murders. But the method, style, and performance is everything to him.

Most people would find those things just as bad. I would feel very disgusted watching any of those things. I'm starting to think you have some issues. Some of the reprehensible acts are not disturbing in the least but you draw the line at skinning someone? That's odd, to say the least...and now cutting a smile on someone's face and shoving a pencil in their eye is out of line but everything else he's done is like watching Chitty Chitty Bang Bang? I'd say those are fairly tame compared to the mental and physical anguish he's caused with some of his other escapades...

I could continue presenting the very real fact that Joker is a man with absolutely no morals and nothing is too much for him, but you just refuse to recognize it, even going as far as to say the stomach curdling things he's done before are ok and fit with the dashing, classy rogue many seem to have in their head. He's a scumbag. An evil, sick, reprehensible monster. Only in his mind and Harley's is he that charming misunderstood clown just trying to make the world laugh.

You don't see it that way? Fine. You're not gonna budge and neither am I. Unlike The Joker, I don't think we're destined to do this forever. So, I give up.

Anyone think Azzarello and Bermejo should team up again for another Bat story set in this world? I'd like to see it. Kinda like an R-rated version of the Nolan-verse, IMO. They keep beating Frank Miller's 'Dark Knight Universe' to death, and that hasn't been any good since it's first appearance in TDKR, I say give someone else a shot.

In fact, I think that's what they should have done with All-Star instead of giving Frank another whack at ****ing up Batman and Jim Lee more opportunity to draw every face the same with more giant **** and asses in the same poses he has for the last 10 years. *shrug*

 

[The Joker]

Well Harley was the one holding the bowie knife, maybe she did it and Joker just watched and laughed.

That would be cool!

Most people would find those things just as bad. I would feel very disgusted watching any of those things.

I'm sure you would. Anyone would. But would you feel AS disgusted as watching someone getting their skin sliced off with a knife?

Of course not. That is just flat out disgusting. He's the Joker, not Jack the Ripper.

I'm starting to think you have some issues.

I don't care what you think of me. So don't start the personal insults with me.

Capeesh?

Some of the reprehensible acts are not disturbing in the least but you draw the line at skinning someone? That's odd, to say the least...and now cutting a smile on someone's face and shoving a pencil in their eye is out of line but everything else he's done is like watching Chitty Chitty Bang Bang? I'd say those are fairly tame compared to the mental and physical anguish he's caused with some of his other escapades...

Wow, way to completely skew what I said and put a whole load of words I never said into my mouth.

Where did I say those other acts were not disturbing or bad? I said they are not nearly as graphic and disgusting as someone get their whole body skinned alive.

Cutting some lines onto someone's face, shoving a pencil into thier eye....are you seriously trying to say they are as graphic and disturbing as peeling the skin off someone's body?

Seriously.

I could continue presenting the very real fact that Joker is a man with absolutely no morals and nothing is too much for him, but you just refuse to recognize it

I don't refuse to recognize anything. It's you who's being blind to the FACT that Joker has never murdered anyone like before in his entire comic book history. Yet you try to present me with a whole bunch of speculation about a possible rape of Barbara, without they're being a shred of proof to back it up.

I'm sorry, I can only judge a character based on what I've been shown of him. And I've never read a Joker that rapes people, or even shown the slightest interest in doing so. And I've certainly never seen him murder anyone in such extremely gross fashion as skinning them like the Predator.

So please don't tell me I don't recognize something that's not even there.

You don't see it that way? Fine. You're not gonna budge and neither am I. Unlike The Joker, I don't think we're destined to do this forever. So, I give up.

Fair enough.

It's a shame you decided to get personal about it. I was enjoying the debate up until now.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

That would be cool!

Looking at it again, I think something like that happened. Harley is definitely holding the knife and looking pleased with her self. Maybe thats the joke. The stripper at this guys strip club stripped him of his flesh and Joker as the customer if you will, slapped the dollar on him?

 

[Daredevil_2003]

I don't care what you think of me. So don't start the personal insults with me.

Capeesh?



It's a shame you decided to get personal about it. I was enjoying the debate up until now.

You said those naughty things didn't bother you but the skinning did. That struck me as odd and led to the 'issues' comment. That wasn't particularly insulting. Calling you a cockbite would have been insulting but I didn't do that because I don't feel that way. Regardless, that was a out of line. I never put any words in your mouth, that's simply what I got from reading it. Sorry if it got your feather's all ruffled. I present my opinions with conviction but I'm not looking to get overly personal and piss anybody off...just irritate a little, maybe.

Sorry, again.

 

[The Joker]

You said those naughty things didn't bother you but the skinning did. That struck me as odd and led to the 'issues' comment.

Well, they didn't. Not because I don't find them horrible acts, but because of how they were presented.

For example, didn't your audience in the cinema clap and cheer and laugh when Joker did his magic trick with the pencil? It got the audiences I was with every time. A real crowd pleaser. Awesomeness.

Of course it was evil and shocking, but it was so brillaintly done without any blood or any gross shots of the pencil in the eye.

That wasn't particularly insulting. Calling you a cockbite would have been insulting but I didn't do that because I don't feel that way. Regardless, that was a out of line. I never put any words in your mouth, that's simply what I got from reading it. Sorry if it got your feather's all ruffled. I present my opinions with conviction but I'm not looking to get overly personal and piss anybody off...just irritate a little, maybe.

Sorry, again.

Ok, fair enough, we'll leave it at that. I appreciate the apology, and I apologize, too, if I got worked up over nothing.

Like I said, you're a great debater, and I did enjoy it With you, too, The Ace of Knaves. Your Harley suggestion has given me food for thought.

 

[Daredevil_2003]

Well, they didn't. Not because I don't find them horrible acts, but because of how they were presented.

For example, didn't your audience in the cinema clap and cheer and laugh when Joker did his magic trick with the pencil? It got the audiences I was with every time. A real crowd pleaser. Awesomeness.

Of course it was evil and shocking, but it was so brillaintly done without any blood or any gross shots of the pencil in the eye.

It definitely did.

I now think this is a disagreement based on fundamental ideas of what Batman and his world is and how it's presented. I don't know exactly what you think but I really love the realistic, R-rated depiction of stories like these. Don't get me wrong, I love almost all interpretations and tones but this type in particular appeals to me most. Anyway, that means for me, The Joker making bacon from a fat sleaze is right in line with my ideas for the character.

I dont believe he should be Jack The Ripper, but instances of something like this, especially given the context of why, is fine in my book. And it adds to my dislike for the character and makes the eventual confrontation with The Batman (albeit a very brief one ) much more satisfying.

The whole book was pretty much Joker being as extreme as he could to get Batman's attention, IMO. Fits in line perfectly with his obsession with The Dark Knight. The quest for money and turf was just a shallow ruse to get the thugs and 'unrefined' goons to follow him. In the end it was all about causing as much chaos as possible and bringing out his pointy-eared 'friend'.

I think we can both agree that The Joker is all about theatrics. I differ in that I believe his actions here are fun/theatrical to him and therefore faithful. The skinning was filmed live before a studio audience, afterall (pardon the bad sitcom joke) and I've already went over the stripping aspect.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea I do think there is a place for these Rate-R Bat stories. The best way to look at this is as though it's a "Elseworlds" tail. You can still have your traditional Batman stories, but I do think there is room for these type of "100 Bullets" style stories.

 

[The Joker]

It definitely did.

I now think this is a disagreement based on fundamental ideas of what Batman and his world is and how it's presented. I don't know exactly what you think but I really love the realistic, R-rated depiction of stories like these. Don't get me wrong, I love almost all interpretations and tones but this type in particular appeals to me most.

Oh don't get me wrong, so do I. Batman's world is a dark and grim one. The darker the better, IMO. It's one of the reasons why I love The Dark Knight. I think that is about the most dark comic book movie around. I think one of the many reasons why Ledger's Joker is so popular is because he was 100% evil. Pure, undiluted, unabridged, unhindered evil. Just as Joker should be.

No, it's just those two elements of this graphic novel that I disliked. The rape and the skinning. Simply because I found them to be out of character for Joker. Other than that, I enjoyed this novel. I didn't think it was anything groundbreaking with the character, and it didn't advance him in any way, or his relationship with Batman.

But it was a fun read overall. Definitely worth the purchase.

I think we can both agree that The Joker is all about theatrics.

Definitely

 

[Daredevil_2003]

Oh don't get me wrong, so do I. Batman's world is a dark and grim one. The darker the better, IMO. It's one of the reasons why I love The Dark Knight. I think that is about the most dark comic book movie around. I think one of the many reasons why Ledger's Joker is so popular is because he was 100% evil. Pure, undiluted, unabridged, unhindered evil. Just as Joker should be.

No, it's just those two elements of this graphic novel that I disliked. The rape and the skinning. Simply because I found them to be out of character for Joker. Other than that, I enjoyed this novel. I didn't think it was anything groundbreaking with the character, and it didn't advance him in any way, or his relationship with Batman.

But it was a fun read overall. Definitely worth the purchase.



Definitely

Wow. I never thought I would say this but with exception to skinning (regardless of whatever I've proposed, I do believe the rape to be out of character, just never viewed him as a sexual person in any way) I agree with every word.

 

[ronny]

The thing with this graphic novel is that they forgot that The Joker is, at heart, a psychopathic and nightmarish clown.
Ledger's Joker showed this through little speech patterns ("Harvey, Harvey, Harvey Dent", His little wave goodbye when he's got all those grenades) and the comics are even more explicit. That's his thing, he's a deranged clown.
Did anyone get any sense of that in this novel?
It seems to me that they just turned him into a pill-popper gangster who hangs out with a crocodile man.

 

[Rasputin911]

I'm really leaning towards Harley being the "skinner" and Joker being the tipper.

 

[Motown Marvel]

The thing with this graphic novel is that they forgot that The Joker is, at heart, a psychopathic and nightmarish clown.
Ledger's Joker showed this through little speech patterns ("Harvey, Harvey, Harvey Dent", His little wave goodbye when he's got all those grenades) and the comics are even more explicit. That's his thing, he's a deranged clown.
Did anyone get any sense of that in this novel?
It seems to me that they just turned him into a pill-popper gangster who hangs out with a crocodile man.

the deranged clown was definitely more downplayed that what we're used to. and i think TDK ledger joker was guilty of the same, actually (he was just a smart ass). but he did have some funny moments in the book, i.e. the rabbit joke when talking to croc.

while this book wasnt as great as i expected, it was still good. but i think people shouldnt look to this book to define these characters...rather, its just a particular take on them. and some people are gonna like that, others are not.

 

[ronny]

the deranged clown was definitely more downplayed that what we're used to. and i think TDK ledger joker was guilty of the same, actually (he was just a smart ass).

How so? I totally got that the Ledger Joker was a sicko clown.
Remember when he's visiting Harvey in hospital. That little "rat-a-tat-a-tat" noise he makes as he raises the bed is classic Joker.
Like I said, it's the little mannerisms. If he had the lethal joy buzzer or other trademarks it would be even clearer.
But yeah, compared to the guy in Joker the Ledger version was incredibly faithful and accurate.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Here's a little wallpaper I whipped up on PS. Help yourselves to it if you want it.

 

[batpawn]

How so? I totally got that the Ledger Joker was a sicko clown.
Remember when he's visiting Harvey in hospital. That little "rat-a-tat-a-tat" noise he makes as he raises the bed is classic Joker.
Like I said, it's the little mannerisms. If he had the lethal joy buzzer or other trademarks it would be even clearer.
But yeah, compared to the guy in Joker the Ledger version was incredibly faithful and accurate.

so, only if the joker makes clowny stuff once in a while, he's the joker? okay, and if the joker doesn't do these clowny things in an... let's say, cannon story like "a clown at midnight", it is not teh joka but just some other guy? in my opinion, it's always a question of interpretation. if an writer wants to take a look on the joker from an other perspective, it is fine for me. but i would never go that far and calling it "not being the joker" just because it doesn't work with "my" interpretation of the joker.

the joker in azzarello's story got green hair, was laughing and smiling, killed people with a joy and had a thing going on with batman. that sounds pretty much like the joker. everything else is a question of interpretation. it is one thing not liking "this" take on the joker, but saying that he isn't "faithful" or "accurate" is - imo - just not right. it certainly is pretty unfair. it's not like azzarello "killed" every other take on the harlequin of hate or dc burning down every copy of other jokers and just leave this as the definitive interpretation.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

^Agreed.

It's just another spin on the Bat mythos, there is always room for these sort of interpretations. I look at it as a sorta elseworlds tale, but obviously a modern, realistic one.

 

[Daredevil_2003]

t: Nice wallpaper, Ace. Little on the small side, though. You got a bigger one? hehe: That's what she said...)

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I'll make some more man. It comes out pretty good though, i'm using it as my one now.

 

[Daredevil_2003]

Yeah, it really does. Looks fine after stretching. Nvm then lol...

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yeah, it really does. Looks fine after stretching. Nvm then lol...

Here I've resized it now.