Logan vs Winter Soldier vs Dark Knight vs Spider-man 2

[Chip Chipperson]

Very close between Spider-Man 2 and Logan but I gotta support my fellow raimi bros on this one and give the edge to the granddaddy of em all

 

[Chip Chipperson]

yeah at this point you might as well just retire TDK and let the debate become "What is the 2nd best" instead. These get old and predictable pretty fast when TDK is involved... and understandably so lol.

 

[Iceman]

I get a lot of joy out of Logan. It is a really well told story, which so much character and heart, that I can't help but enjoy it. Also it has a lot of fun and funny moments, a lot like TDK. I have already seen it at least 10 times, and I really enjoy it every time.

I do find it strange that a lot of people here treat it like it's Schindler's List. Like, it ain't that dark or devoid of fun.

Given that Logan is a CBM and Schindler’s List a WW II story dealing with a real life tragedy, I’d say they are depressing on a similar level relative to what they’re based on. But that isn’t a negative as a film (they’re both great), just a negative in terms of blockbuster entertainment and replay value if someone is buying the film. It’s great that you enjoy rewatching Logan many times, but it has also independently been brought up by too many people (on the Hype) to be a tough or rare rewatch for it to be a coincidence.

And it’s interesting how TDK despite also being very dark and depressing, rarely gets this hard-to-rewatch issue mentioned. TDK is one of the best films of this type I’ve seen. It’s the only film of the genre I would happily rewatch a hundred more times if you took out all the action. The dialogue/performances are solid throughout and being able to maintain such a pace and intensity is rare. Very few scenes aren’t directly contributing to the greatness of the overall narrative. It’s absolutely gripping and if I could get the fight scenes tweaked, and Rachel’s character and the ferry scene improved, it would be coming close to a perfect experience from the opening to closing credits for me.

That’s not supposed to be a criticism of Logan at all btw, it totally achieved what it set out to do and was a great swan song for Jackman’s Wolverine.

 

[Iceman]

yeah at this point you might as well just retire TDK and let the debate become "What is the 2nd best" instead. These get old and predictable pretty fast when TDK is involved... and understandably so lol.

IMO TDK is really only going to become relevant when comparing against similar style films of similar quality. ie Godfather 1 and 2 and Goodfellas.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

IMO TDK is really only going to become relevant when comparing against similar style films of similar quality. ie Godfather 1 and 2 and Goodfellas.

I'm all for subjectivity in evaluating film, so I'm not knocking any opinions, but I think a script needs to make a lot more sense if its film is to be compared to films like The Godfather. For example, a good deal of the Joker's plans don't really make sense that he could pull them off, at least not in that serious setting. I don't have any such fundamental criticisms against The Godfather.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I think it's more fair to put TDK with something like Star Wars V, Back to the Future, Alien, The Terminator, LOTR, The Matrix or some other fantasy pop culture icons. Not with stuff like Godfather, Apocalypse Now or Goodfellas.

When people compare it to Godfather (which isn't even the film I love), I really begin to feel it's overrated.

 

[Flint Marko]

I'm all for subjectivity in evaluating film, so I'm not knocking any opinions, but I think a script needs to make a lot more sense if its film is to be compared to films like The Godfather. For example, a good deal of the Joker's plans don't really make sense that he could pull them off, at least not in that serious setting. I don't have any such fundamental criticisms against The Godfather.

This past weekend I watched TDKT in it's entirety and was surprised how much more I enjoyed BB overall than TDK.

The whole bullet in the wall sequence is convoluted nonsense, and so is the parade portion where Gordon fakes his own death, topped off by an entire firing squad of policemen somehow not recognizing a strange officer with giant facial scars that matched the Joker perfectly.

That last bit is unfathomably dumb. I had forgotten that it cuts to him just chilling in the crowd of officers as if no one would notice.

That entire portion of the movie does not hold up and should have been cut. I struggle to think of another superhero movie I love that is so acclaimed that has such a glaring problem. I get why the movie is so lauded and it's definitely one of the best sin the genre, but naming it alongside some of the best films ever made is a huge stretch.

 

[Greens]

Hey, there's precedence for Gotham's police being the least competent police force in the world! When Nicholson's Joker had those mimes shoot up city hall they just kind of stood there.

 

[Another_Fool]

The Dark Knight
Logan
Winter Soldier
Spider-Man 2

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This past weekend I watched TDKT in it's entirety and was surprised how much more I enjoyed BB overall than TDK.

The whole bullet in the wall sequence is convoluted nonsense, and so is the parade portion where Gordon fakes his own death, topped off by an entire firing squad of policemen somehow not recognizing a strange officer with giant facial scars that matched the Joker perfectly.

That last bit is unfathomably dumb. I had forgotten that it cuts to him just chilling in the crowd of officers as if no one would notice.

That entire portion of the movie does not hold up and should have been cut. I struggle to think of another superhero movie I love that is so acclaimed that has such a glaring problem. I get why the movie is so lauded and it's definitely one of the best sin the genre, but naming it alongside some of the best films ever made is a huge stretch.

That is because it is not a problem. The wall sequence is James Bond sci-fi for sure, but the logic behind it makes sense. The idea is the bullet is untraceable, but by reconstructing the bullet, there is potential to find a fingerprint. We are talking about a guy who drives around on the streets in a sci-fi tank, and a bit of CSI is the part that is hard to believe?

You have removed the entire context of the parade scene.



The Joker sets up the scene very deliberately. Those cops close enough to see him, are his own men. Considering who Bruce finds, that is what, 7 men. Not that those handling the 21 gun salute would even be paying attention to the others. They are busy not trying to screw up, while worried about a potential attack. He sets up a situation that distracts the snipers, taking their eyes from the scene. The vast majority do not know where the bullet came from, which of course causes everyone there to panic and thus everyone scatters. He has a fall guy ready to go, which is the point of lining everyone up to shoot at the commissioner together. I am confused how you think in that chaos anyone, including the cops, would be able to see the Joker's face in the rushing crowd, as there are civilians themselves running around. And of course, when looking for the Joker, the cops would be looking for a man with makeup on. That is the reason this is the one scene he isn't wearing it. This is all before we get into how spooked Joker has the city, including the cops.

Beyond that, as a scene it is brilliantly tense and beautifully shot. A lot of the shots were instant classics back in 2008. Then you have the little things, like everyone reacting to the gunfire after the initial incident. When Harvey is walking to the ambulance.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Hey, there's precedence for Gotham's police being the least competent police force in the world! When Nicholson's Joker had those mimes shoot up city hall they just kind of stood there.

I don't really remember the first Burton Batman anymore so I can't say how it works there, but TDK takes a very serious and down to earth take on Batman so having the cops be utterly incompetent just doesn't mesh with the tone at all in my view.

The post above this gives one example. Why would the police be looking just for a man with makeup on? Standard procedure for searching for wanted criminals is to expect hair to be removed or grown, etc, so why wouldn't they expect him to wash off makeup? To focus mainly on that is as dumb as if a western sheriff was looking for people with scarfs over their faces. Everyone knows the Joker has huge facial scars and that would be the obvious main signalment, and given how hard that is to cover up he should be easier than most to spot. Or as someone on the forum said elsewhere, the bank robbery escape is more like an idea from the old TV show.

TDK is full of things I'd be more OK with in a film that isn't so gritty and serious, and that takes itself less seriously, but in that tone I think stand out in a bad way. If Nolan had embraced the CBM genre instead of almost trying to avoid it I think it would have worked better. Or if they just wrote a script as coherent and logical as your standard good crime film.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't really remember the first Burton Batman anymore so I can't say how it works there, but TDK takes a very serious and down to earth take on Batman so having the cops be utterly incompetent just doesn't mesh with the tone at all in my view.

The post above this gives one example. Why would the police be looking just for a man with makeup on? Standard procedure for searching for wanted criminals is to expect hair to be removed or grown, etc, so why wouldn't they expect him to wash off makeup? To focus mainly on that is as dumb as if a western sheriff was looking for people with scarfs over their faces. Everyone knows the Joker has huge facial scars and that would be the obvious main signalment, and given how hard that is to cover up he should be easier than most to spot. Or as someone on the forum said elsewhere, the bank robbery escape is more like an idea from the old TV show.

TDK is full of things I'd be more OK with in a film that isn't so gritty and serious, and that takes itself less seriously, but in that tone I think stand out in a bad way. If Nolan had embraced the CBM genre instead of almost trying to avoid it I think it would have worked better. Or if they just wrote a script as coherent and logical as your standard good crime film.

Well I suggest watching the news. Plenty of utterly incompetent cops, especially in big cities. In the case of Gotham, the vast majority are also on the take.

They wouldn't be simply looking for a man with makeup, but it would the most obvious identifying thing. None of them have seen him without the makeup and the idea that they would spot him in a crowd that has scattered in chaos seems... well not all that down to earth.

And yeah, TDK has a rather fantastic script. This scene included. Nolan also very much embraced the CBM genre. I don't understand the idea that he didn't. Just look at his villains, his tech, etc. It's very comic book. He just did it so much better then everyone else.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Well I suggest watching the news. Plenty of utterly incompetent cops, especially in big cities. In the case of Gotham, the vast majority are also on the take.

They wouldn't be simply looking for a man with makeup, but it would the most obvious identifying thing. None of them have seen him with the makeup and the idea that they would spot him in a crowd that has scattered in chaos seems... well not all that down to earth.

And yeah, TDK has a rather fantastic script. This scene included. Nolan also very much embraced the CBM genre. I don't understand the idea that he didn't. Just look at his villains, his tech, etc. It's very comic book. He just did it so much better then everyone else.

If a real city had a police force like Gotham's no crimes would be solved. If you can't even piece together a bus sized hole in a bank with a school bus slowly crawling away, covered in dust and debris, you can't solve any crime. As said, it's more like something from the campy TV show.

No, the most obvious identifying thing is his scars. And it's not in the chaos that they should have noticed him, it's before as a highly facially disfigured person stands out a lot. That's way down the list of things he shouldn't have been able to get away with though.

I disagree on the script. It has very good parts but also downright poor parts, with the villain not actually being intelligent but rather having plot armor. It is probably the dumbest film I've ever seen heralded as smart by a good amount of people.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If a real city had a police force like Gotham's no crimes would be solved. If you can't even piece together a bus sized hole in a bank with a school bus slowly crawling away, covered in dust and debris, you can't solve any crime. As said, it's more like something from the campy TV show.

No, the most obvious identifying thing is his scars. And it's not in the chaos that they should have noticed him, it's before as a highly facially disfigured person stands out a lot. That's way down the list of things he shouldn't have been able to get away with though.

I disagree on the script. It has very good parts but also downright poor parts, with the villain not actually being intelligent but rather having plot armor. It is probably the dumbest film I've ever seen heralded as smart by a good amount of people.

Which is established in Begins and TDK. It's one of the major reasons Batman exist. The cops in Gotham aren't very effective, do in no small part to fighting crime in Gotham not really being a thing while under mob rule. Most were crooked, and the good cops could do nothing, for fear of what doing something would result in. It's why Gordon's unit is so small, and even then there is a dirty cop in the group.

Though your argument over the cops is interesting, as you complain that the movie did not "embrace" comic book sensibilities enough.

How so? Like he has his scars, but he highlights them in red. They are flesh colored after all. Who would have saw the Joker? The other cops? Which ones? A big part of the plot is how audacious it is. No one would expect it.

The script is terrific and the Joker is plenty intelligent. He's also crazy though, so he tries insane things. Kind of his thing, as the Joker. Very comic booky, wouldn't you say?

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Which is established in Begins and TDK. It's one of the major reasons Batman exist. The cops in Gotham aren't very effective, do in no small part to fighting crime in Gotham not really being a thing while under mob rule. Most were crooked, and the good cops could do nothing, for fear of what doing something would result in. It's why Gordon's unit is so small, and even then there is a dirty cop in the group.

Though your argument over the cops is interesting, as you complain that the movie did not "embrace" comic book sensibilities enough.

How so? Like he has his scars, but he highlights them in red. They are flesh colored after all. Who would have saw the Joker? The other cops? Which ones?

The script is terrific and the Joker is plenty intelligent. He's also crazy though, so he tries insane things. Kind of his thing, as the Joker. Very comic booky, wouldn't you say?

They went overboard with how incompetent they are for the tone of the film. The mob rule doesn't really matter as the first example of extreme incompetence is when the mob bank got robbed.

Yes, if the film had felt more comic booky and taken itself less seriously there would be more room for wacky stuff. It's not something that manages to set the general tone, it just falls outside of it.

The scars are very large and visible, which the clip above clearly shows. They are scars that have healed horribly bad and he looks disfigured. And he's clearly walked around plenty of other cops that are supposed to be very on edge and observant at that place (plenty of shots to see how paranoid many look).

He has plenty of plans that aren't within his power to control. For example, rigging an entire hospital with explosives enough to destroy it without anyone noticing is nothing he'd ever be able to do, which is probably why they don't explain it whatsoever and just hope that the audience doesn't think. I don't think the film manages to marry the wacky stuff with the tone, so instead of feeling comic booky I think they created a film that tries to be serious but doesn't always stay on the road. An example that I manages to walk this line far better with a serious tone is Logan.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I'm all for subjectivity in evaluating film, so I'm not knocking any opinions, but I think a script needs to make a lot more sense if its film is to be compared to films like The Godfather. For example, a good deal of the Joker's plans don't really make sense that he could pull them off, at least not in that serious setting. I don't have any such fundamental criticisms against The Godfather.

The way Michael takes out the heads of the Five Families at the same time at the end is pretty far-fetched. They all happen to individually be in compromising positions with nobody around all at the same time in different locations, and none of the assassins get caught or fingered.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

They went overboard with how incompetent they are for the tone of the film. The mob rule doesn't really matter as the first example of extreme incompetence is when the mob bank got robbed.

Yes, if the film had felt more comic booky and taken itself less seriously there would be more room for wacky stuff. It's not something that manages to set the general tone, it just falls outside of it.

The scars are very large and visible, which the clip above clearly shows. They are scars that have healed horribly bad and he looks disfigured. And he's clearly walked around plenty of other cops that are supposed to be very on edge and observant at that place (plenty of shots to see how paranoid many look).

He has plenty of plans that aren't within his power to control. For example, rigging an entire hospital with explosives enough to destroy it without anyone noticing is nothing he'd ever be able to do, which is probably why they don't explain it whatsoever and just hope that the audience doesn't think. I don't think the film manages to marry the wacky stuff with the tone, so instead of feeling comic booky I think they created a film that tries to be serious but doesn't always stay on the road. An example that I manages to walk this line far better with a serious tone is Logan.

The mob rule matters because the cops are not really cops. They aren't use to being cops. More over, they do not expect the Joker, no one does. Everything he does is audacious, to the point of just simply not expecting. I love the idea that people just think the cops would assume a bus in a group of other buses would just house this bank robber. Everything the Joker does is so out of left field, it takes time to process, and by the time they do it, he's already gone. So what you have are less then stellar cops running into the Joker, in all his ethereal glory.

Yes. And which of these cops, standing a reasonable distance away, would think the Joker is standing in the 21 gun salute line? In your example of a grounded reality, why would they expect something that crazy? That he would be able to take out 6-7 cops, take their uniforms and dress up with his crew, and get into the 21 gun salute?

The Joker filled up two buildings with explosive rather quickly for both Harvey and Rachel. Him rigging a hospital, while the cops are scattered across the town is strange how?. Also, he clearly has men with him. He doesn't drive the bus away, he doesn't control everyone on the bus on his own, he has goons with him when Batman attacks. He didn't magically do it on his own.

You are writing that comic booky and serious are not compatible. That isn't true at all.

Logan is a movie about clones. Some they can make full size in no time. I mean... yeah.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am not even saying TDK has airtight logic, but it is the story of a guy who dresses up like a bat, a cop trying to tear his city from the hands of the mob, a DA who loses half his face, and the Joker, who is presented as very elemental. It was never presented as being super realistic. It is a comic book movie. One that tells that story brilliantly.

I do think that the "best" shots that people can seemingly take at the movie is that the Joker is too good at being the Joker, so telling.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

A lot of what happens in TDKT can be explained by the cops being incompetent, corrupt, and hopelessly undermanned. Things well established even in BB.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Honestly, the only thing I can look at with TDK being any type of major flaw (outside of some bad extras here and there) is the Joker seriously dwarfs Batman in regards to who is the most interesting character. I do find both Joker and Dent more interesting than Batman in TDK. But that said, I still love Batman in it so it is a minor problem.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

The mob rule matters because the cops are not really cops. They aren't use to being cops. More over, they do not expect the Joker, no one does. Everything he does is audacious, to the point of just simply not expecting. I love the idea that people just think the cops would assume a bus in a group of other buses would just house this bank robber. Everything the Joker does is so out of left field, it takes time to process, and by the time they do it, he's already gone. So what you have are less then stellar cops running into the Joker, in all his ethereal glory.

Yes. And which of these cops, standing a reasonable distance away, would think the Joker is standing in the 21 gun salute line? In your example of a grounded reality, why would they expect something that crazy? That he would be able to take out 6-7 cops, take their uniforms and dress up with his crew, and get into the 21 gun salute?

The Joker filled up two buildings with explosive rather quickly for both Harvey and Rachel. Him rigging a hospital, while the cops are scattered across the town is strange how?. Also, he clearly has men with him. He doesn't drive the bus away, he doesn't control everyone on the bus on his own, he has goons with him when Batman attacks. He didn't magically do it on his own.

You are writing that comic booky and serious are not compatible. That isn't true at all.

I find the idea amusing that the cops wouldn't make that connection. They are approaching a bank robbery, a very serious and dangerous situation and they will of course be vigilant to notice any escape attempt. One of the buses in the line is covered in dust and some debris, while all others are fine. There's no valid reason why that wouldn't attract attention. They also have good time to assess the situation and then basically run up to the bus as it was just crawling away.

The cops likely know a good amount of the other cops so they'd know who were standing in that salute. Just seeing all new faces would be odd enough, let alone a disfigured one when they are looking for a disfigured criminal as their most wanted. But as said, it's not on the top of my list of things I don't think he would be able to do.

The issue with rigging the bombs isn't the cops, it's all the other people in hospitals.

It's common to use comic booky in the sense of embracing the more stand out aspects of comic books, so I thought it would be easy to be understood with that term on this forum. The MCU has also become more comic booky now than in it's first films (although starting out with a scientific breakthrough in a cave isn't exactly bottom of the scale).

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Some of the absolute greatest movies of all-time make no sense of you think about them for more than five seconds.

Nobody was in the room when Charles Foster Kane mentioned Rosebud.

The Germans had no reason to respect a letter of transit from Charles de Gaulle and would have arrested Lazlo the second he showed up at Rick's.

Et cetera.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I find the idea amusing that the cops wouldn't make that connection. They are approaching a bank robbery, a very serious and dangerous situation and they will of course be vigilant to notice any escape attempt. One of the buses in the line is covered in dust and some debris, while all others are fine. There's no valid reason why that wouldn't attract attention. They also have good time to assess the situation and then basically run up to the bus as it was just crawling away.

The cops likely know a good amount of the other cops so they'd know who were standing in that salute. Just seeing all new faces would be odd enough, let alone a disfigured one when they are looking for a disfigured criminal as their most wanted. But as said, it's not on the top of my list of things I don't think he would be able to do.

The issue with rigging the bombs isn't the cops, it's all the other people in hospitals.

It's common to use comic booky in the sense of embracing the more stand out aspects of comic books, so I thought it would be easy to be understood with that term on this forum. The MCU has also become more comic booky now than in it's first films (although starting out with a scientific breakthrough in a cave isn't exactly bottom of the scale).

They are in cop cars. They can't see the roof of the bus. But even still, they don't even know there is a hole in the side of the bank and that a bus was driven into the bank. So by the time they all get there and figure it out, guess what. He's gone.

I am curious, what exactly do you think happened with Joker and his crew in that scene? You make it sound like they were hanging out with the cops. That clearly isn't the case.

Which is exactly why the Joker causes chaos with his little manhunt. So they can do that stuff under the noses of everyone.

Not that any of that really matters. The entire point is the Joker is always one step ahead of the cops, no matter what. And he does this by doing crazy risky things.

Yes. The problem is, you are ignoring that TDKT is very comic booky.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Honestly, the only thing I can look at with TDK being any type of major flaw (outside of some bad extras here and there) is the Joker seriously dwarfs Batman in regards to who is the most interesting character. I do find both Joker and Dent more interesting than Batman in TDK. But that said, I still love Batman in it so it is a minor problem.

It reminds me of Star Wars in that regard where Vader dominates the other characters. It is pretty common where the villain is the juiciest part.

The film that I think really does suffer from it is Silence of the Lambs, where Lector is just a supporting character and not even the main villain.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It reminds me of Star Wars in that regard where Vader dominates the other characters. It is pretty common where the villain is the juiciest part.

The film that I think really does suffer from it is Silence of the Lambs, where Lector is a just a supporting character and not even the main villain.

I find it an issue if the overwhelming presence isn't amazing. Vader and the Joker dominate because of just how great they are, not simply because the other characters are underwritten or just suck.