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The Dark Knight Rises Sewer Fight vs. The Winter Soldier Highway Fight

Which scene did you like more?

  • The Dark Knight Rises Sewer Fight

  • Captain America: The Winter Soldier Highway Fight


Results are only viewable after voting.
Did you ever see Magneto and Mystique call each other friends in the old X-Men movies? Did you see either of them shed a tear for each other? Did you even see them share a personal moment? No. The closest you get is when Magneto callously walks away from her without a second thought after she is hit with the cure and becomes human, and she is visibly hurt by this.

The Jennifer Lawrence version of the character rewrote the book on Mystique by giving her a personal back story with both Magneto and Charles that was not evident at all in the Singer/Ratner movies.

E.g. Lawrence's character would never have done things like sabotaged Cerebro to hurt Charles and put him in a coma.

We see Magneto put his arms around her in X1, the pair laugh and joke in X2, and a sheer look of horror in Magneto's face when Mystique steps in front of the cure dart in TLS. The pair are obviously close. Magneto abandoning Mystique after she is cured was a brutal twist, and only works because they were close before.

No Lawrence-era Mystique required, though their romantic relationship in that is built from the subtext of their relationship in the OT.

All irrelevant anyway. Their fond relationship has no impact on Bane's status as a lackey. If anything, it hurts your case. Bane follows Talia because he loves her. Henchman behavior.

In the sewer fight scene.

I see nothing about him proving his worth in that scene. If I read too much out of single line then surely you can be accused of doing the same out of no line at all.

No, the audience was supposed to think Bruce heard a skewed version of the story. Bane was never the child in the pit, just like he was never excommunicated for being too extreme.

Bane presents himself as the LOS, not him and his mercenaries, just him. Talia never calls herself it. So nothing was misdirected or negated.

So Talia was never in the League of Shadows? Interesting.

Except it isn't. Your basis for this was Talia calls the shots as soon as she is revealed. She tells Bane to do one little thing, which he doesn't even do. Exact same scenario with Ock and Harry. Just because one villain tells the other to do something doesn't mean they are calling the shots. If that was the case then just about every villain team up is a boss/lackey scenario.

Another strawman. By the time Talia is revealed they have like 9 minutes to live. What happens is Talia reveals her backstory, calls Bane her friend, and tells him she wants Batman alive to die with the rest of Gotham. That one line does not in any way dictate she has been calling the shots or masterminded everything.

Call strawman all you like bud. The film only gives you the one scene with the two of them. In it, we find out that the motivation is hers, not his. This seems like an awfully convoluted argument over the word "lackey". I don't know why it stings so much.

If you think about it as well, there is no way in hell Talia would have been able to complete her mission or even do half the things she did achieve in the movie without Bane's involvement. Bane was feared and that's why the genuine lackey's obeyed him, they were terrified of falling foul of Bane as they were terrified of him, same with Catwoman, same with Daggart, or anyone else they enlisted to help. Bane was also needed to draw out Batman and break him so he could suffer the torture of watching his city burn to ashes. Without Bane Talia wouldn't have gotten anywhere close to succeeding g in the majority of what she set out to.

Lackey's aren't usually that important to a plan succeeding. Bane is essential

Not really the case. Henchmen can be really important. To go back to the X-Men example, Mystique is incredibly valuable to Magneto's plans. She even orchestrates his prison break in X2.

The definition of henchman is simply that they are a follower. I'd argue Bane is precisely that.
 
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Bane does not follow Talia "because he loves her". Right there , you have no argument after you say that.
 
You're right. I lose.
-Goodbye-bane-and-talia-al-ghul-39857593-245-138.gif
 
We see Magneto put his arms around her in X1, the pair laugh and joke in X2, and a sheer look of horror in Magneto's face when Mystique steps in front of the cure dart in TLS. The pair are obviously close. Magneto abandoning Mystique after she is cured was a brutal twist, and only works because they were close before.

None of that is clearly indicative of close relationship behaviour and is as old as time with henchgirls. E.g. the henchgirls a week in the 60's Batman TV show used to have the villains put their arms around, and laugh at their jokes.

Magneto abandoning her is a cruel twist because he leaves one of his own. The only thing he can say is its a shame because she was beautiful. That's the sign of a hollow henchgirl like relationship with no substance. Compared to Xavier whom he is shown to be visibly upset over dying, and tears Pyro a new one when he disrespects Xavier, and says his death his greatest regret. Whereas Mystique is never mentioned again by him.

Apples and oranges because one was a relationship Mags cared for and one wasn't.

No Lawrence-era Mystique required, though their romantic relationship in that is built from the subtext of their relationship in the OT.

There is no romantic subtext. The Lawrence era Mystique rewrote the relationships between Eric and Charles.

All irrelevant anyway. Their fond relationship has no impact on Bane's status as a lackey. If anything, it hurts your case. Bane follows Talia because he loves her. Henchman behavior.

Its only irrelevant if you if you ignore the total lack of emotion and closeness between Mags and Mystique.

I see nothing about him proving his worth in that scene. If I read too much out of single line then surely you can be accused of doing the same out of no line at all.

You surprise me since you're obviously into character expressions and reactions. When Batman mocks Bane for being expelled by "a gang of psychopaths" Bane gets visibly pissed and beats the hell out of Batman. He then says the I am the LOS line and about fulfilling Ra's destiny.

Context, something you're also into. Bane was obviously sore that he was booted out of the LOS and wanted to prove himself by becoming the new LOS.

So Talia was never in the League of Shadows? Interesting.

Don't act silly. You heard her say both she and Bane were taken in and trained by the LOS, then when Bane was kicked out she cut off all ties with her father.

Call strawman all you like bud. The film only gives you the one scene with the two of them. In it, we find out that the motivation is hers, not his. This seems like an awfully convoluted argument over the word "lackey". I don't know why it stings so much.

Except you don't find out anything of the sort. Nothing Talia says dictates anything of the kind. Your whole theory rests on a single line about keeping Batman alive, which Bane doesn't even do. Fact not opinion that equal villain team ups often give orders or demands to each other, or even in lesser relationships where the villain makes a deal with a weaker party e.g. the aforementioned Harry and Ock scenario.
 
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I will just say why does one have to be a lackey or subordinate? Could they not be equal partners? After all, Bane seemed to be making all the command decisions himself: using Gordon's speech against the institutions while breaking Harvey Dent's "undesirables" out of Blackgate Prison; breaking the Batman and taking him to "Bane's prison" where Bruce was meant to suffer as Bane did for so many years down there; deciding who gets sacked; personally taking care of the Navy SEALs and turning them into an uncomfortable Fallujah-esque spectacle.

And at the end, he also elected to kill Batman despite Talia asking him not to. For the record, I always did love the line, "We both know I have to kill you now. You'll just have to imagine the fire."

Yes, he and Talia were working together and he obviously listened to her, but I did takeaway from it as a peer. I am not sure why it has to be one or the other for fans. Or why it is so much worse than, say, Vader taking orders from the Emperor. Only like Vader, Bane was not afraid of Talia and willingly acted against her wishes. Then again, she is a woman, and that seems to be a big sticking point in fan communities.
 
At least we can agree, this >>> both by quite a margin. Amazing how these guys can move at the same speed as Cap and Bucky, but without any shakeycam or stunt doubles.

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Two-Face was a puppet of the Joker in TDK. So what? It's a wonderfully written character arc. Bane, perhaps being the second in command in LoS, assuming Talia took over, is making decisions on every corner during the entire movie.
 
Two-Face was a puppet of the Joker in TDK. So what? It's a wonderfully written character arc. Bane, perhaps being the second in command in LoS, assuming Talia took over, is making decisions on every corner during the entire movie.

Two-Face's character arc is what drives the plot of TDK.

It's much better done that way than if he was a cameo in a dream sequence to set up the third or fourth Batman movie.
 
Two-Face's character arc is what drives the plot of TDK.

It's much better done that way than if he was a cameo in a dream sequence to set up the third or fourth Batman movie.
Bane had a cameo in a dream sequence? Not sure what you wanted to say in response to my post.
 
Highway fight, no contest

And say what you will about the shaky cam and quick cuts but watching old jackie chan stuff feels so... slow now. The fight scene on the boat at the beginning or the stairway fight in CW i think hit a better balance of clear editing and fight choreo, but still having fast paced and intense action
 
And say what you will about the shaky cam and quick cuts but watching old jackie chan stuff feels so... slow now.

Not at all. Jackie Chan's fight scenes have held up remarkably well. I have no idea how you can call the above scene 'slow'. It's as fast as the TWS fight with more complex choreography, no stunt double switches, steady shots with half the cuts.
 
Jackie Chan still holds up and even surpasses.
 
Not at all. Jackie Chan's fight scenes have held up remarkably well. I have no idea how you can call the above scene 'slow'. It's as fast as the TWS fight with more complex choreography, no stunt double switches, steady shots with half the cuts.

I know theyre not actually moving slow, its obviously fast as hell, but it...idk...feeels slow because of the editing, not trying to take anything away from mister Chan at all, but it feels more like watching two people dance than two people beating the piss out of one another. And thats great if the martial arts is really your focus. But that boat fight and the CW stairway fight just feel much more visceral, imo
 
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Highway fight, no contest

And say what you will about the shaky cam and quick cuts but watching old jackie chan stuff feels so... slow now. The fight scene on the boat at the beginning or the stairway fight in CW i think hit a better balance of clear editing and fight choreo, but still having fast paced and intense action

Lol not even close. Jackie Chan's work is the Crème de la Crème.
 
I will just say why does one have to be a lackey or subordinate? Could they not be equal partners? After all, Bane seemed to be making all the command decisions himself: using Gordon's speech against the institutions while breaking Harvey Dent's "undesirables" out of Blackgate Prison; breaking the Batman and taking him to "Bane's prison" where Bruce was meant to suffer as Bane did for so many years down there; deciding who gets sacked; personally taking care of the Navy SEALs and turning them into an uncomfortable Fallujah-esque spectacle.

And at the end, he also elected to kill Batman despite Talia asking him not to. For the record, I always did love the line, "We both know I have to kill you now. You'll just have to imagine the fire."

Yes, he and Talia were working together and he obviously listened to her, but I did takeaway from it as a peer. I am not sure why it has to be one or the other for fans. Or why it is so much worse than, say, Vader taking orders from the Emperor. Only like Vader, Bane was not afraid of Talia and willingly acted against her wishes. Then again, she is a woman, and that seems to be a big sticking point in fan communities.

Heck, Vader took orders from Tarkin, not just the Emperor. Tarkin does refer to Vader as his friend like Talia does Bane and he both listens to Vader and grants him a lot of leeway, but he clearly gives him orders a couple of times and Vader obeys.
 
Happy to see the poll starting to turn one-sided over the past 24hrs.
 
Chan did all of his own fight sequences on his Hong Kong films. When he started making films in the states, the production companies probably limited how much of his own work he did for insurance purposes, and also because of the stunt actors guild. But all the stuff he did in Hong Kong was him doing his own scenes, on a shoe string budget. He also broke nearly every bone in his body doing some of those scenes.
 
Happy to see the poll starting to turn one-sided over the past 24hrs.

That even surprised myself. I expected it would be close to the TDKR vs CW poll because it's roughly the same people voting, but this poll pretty much turned into a blowout.
 
That even surprised myself. I expected it would be close to the TDKR vs CW poll because it's roughly the same people voting, but this poll pretty much turned into a blowout.

Rightfully so, IMO. I'm gonna stay low till all this Rises talk ceases, but I want you to know I'm with you 90% of the way. I'm just over Rises discussions, because for whatever reason, fans of this movie more than any CBM out there with polarized views are the most testy and venomous to those who thought the film wasn't really good at all.
 
Bane's death scene IMO really underscores his lackeyness: he gets taken out in midsentence by Catwoman, who then jokes about it (something Marvel films are frequently derided for). Contrast it with "The World is Not Enough" (which as I've said before, did the whole Bane/Talia thing better), where both Elektra and Renard meet their demise at Bond's hands, with both scenes played seriously.
 
Bane's death scene IMO really underscores his lackeyness: he gets taken out in midsentence by Catwoman, who then jokes about it (something Marvel films are frequently derided for). Contrast it with "The World is Not Enough" (which as I've said before, did the whole Bane/Talia thing better), where both Elektra and Renard meet their demise at Bond's hands, with both scenes played seriously.

Technically, it isn't mid-sentence. :sly:

I also again like Catwoman doing it. Batman doesn't kill, and it's a great moment for her. But I have ridden this merry-go-round before, so agree to disagree.
 
Love Banes dialogue in the sewer fight, shows Nolans strength for writing and giving the fight weight and importance, as the fight goes on you know Bat's is stuffed no matter what he throws at Bane before being literally broken.

The Cap fight is bloody awesome as well mind, easily the best in all MCU films for me, the WS is like The Terminator, a relentless machine, taking three heroes combined to stop him and the action is Bourne like in its kinetic pace and verve.

I would just shade towards Bane and Bats but two of the best fight scenes around in CBM's so both deserve high praise.
 
Yeah, I can't say I care for how Bane died. Matter of fact, I'm still not entirely happy with Batman/Bane Round 2.
 
I can't think of any other way for Bane to be taken out. He had to die. The bomb wasn't going off, so somebody had to end him. It shouldn't be Batman, so who? Gordon? Blake? Selina? Out of those three, who makes the most sense when you think about where they are in the story and their characterization. I vote Selina. And it shows Selina returning to help Batman, which was also the point. The best part about it is how sudden of a death it was. A lot of fans didn't like that but i loved it. He literally went out with a bang, and it's a MASSIVE one. He gets blown across the damn hallway by the batpod. Or "catpod" i should say. Remember what Ras once said? "Death does not wait for you to be ready. Death isn't considerate OR fair". Two-Face and Bane both die a quick death. The audience isn't ready for Bane to be blasted away like that. If you really think about how he goes, it's a holy s**t moment. And Catwoman's line just makes her look like a complete boss. So why are people annoyed that he died that way? Is it because it's a woman/catwoman? I hope not. Is it because they're uncomfortable by a quick death they didn't see coming? What do you want? I'm curious. I want to hear a second or third option..
 
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