The Rise of Skywalker Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker (IX)

[Doctor Jones]

I think the reason why the cynical Luke stuff rubs people the wrong way is because we don't see why and how it happens to him. The idea is great, but it isn't unfair for people to not bridge the gap between ROTJ and TLJ Luke. If we had seen it, we would have empathized with Luke and bought it. Instead, it's just talked about.

The problem with these movies is that the main things driving these characters depends on what happened in the past and it's only talked about, not dramatized. I appreciated the Roshomon style flashbacks with Ben but that was more about Ben than Luke. I think if we had seen Luke training Ben and him turning to the dark side him attempting to kill Ben would have seen less controversial.

Episode 7 really just should have been Luke training Ben, his fall to the dark side, Han and Leia's relationship falling apart with the Knights of Ren as villains. Rey could have still been the main character to see all of this. She could have been our POV character in the new status quo. She could have been one of Luke's students who witnessed Ben's fall.

 

[writer0327]

I think the reason why the cynical Luke stuff rubs people the wrong way is because we don't see why and how it happens to him. The idea is great, but it isn't unfair for people to not bridge the gap between ROTJ and TLJ Luke. If we had seen it, we would have empathized with Luke and bought it. Instead, it's just talked about.

The problem with these movies is that the main things driving these characters depends on what happened in the past and it's only talked about, not dramatized. I appreciated the Roshomon style flashbacks with Ben but that was more about Ben than Luke. I think if we had seen Luke training Ben and him turning to the dark side him attempting to kill Ben would have seen less controversial.

Episode 7 really just should have been Luke training Ben, his fall to the dark side, Han and Leia's relationship falling apart with the Knights of Ren as villains. Rey could have still been the main character to see all of this. She could have been our POV character in the new status quo. She could have been one of Luke's students who witnessed Ben's fall.

I'm one of those folks that think we can be shown credible reason for Luke's crisis. There's room to explore that history via novels and cartoons. However I don't know if it will help most people feel better about what RJ did. I think most wanted a different Luke in TLJ.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I'm one of those folks that think we can be shown credible reason for Luke's crisis. There's room to explore that history via novels and cartoons. However I don't know if it will help most people feel better about what RJ did. I think most wanted a different Luke in TLJ.

I get if it wasn't their preference, but it's separate from if it's a criticism based on that they didn't get what they wanted. That's unfair.

 

[TheVileOne]

If Last Jedi leaves a bad taste in your mouth, just play Jedi Knight II Jedi Outcast.

Therer's a part in the game where you return to Yavin where Luke built his new Jedi Academy. You literally go through the staging area where they monitored the battle of Yavin from the original movie. C3PO and R2D2 are hanging around, and you get to have this cool meeting with Luke.



As much as I get what Rian Johnson was going for and I empathize with him, writing a post-Return of the Jedi Luke is not that hard. Abrams and Johnson seriously overthought it.

Luke was supposed to pass on what he learned. Restarting the Jedi Order and teaching a new generation of Jedi was the next logical step. And yeah, clearly there would've been some problem children in there. Ye Olde EU explores all of this.

Fans probably feel deprived we never really got to see that.

But part of that is because they waited 30 years to make genuine sequels.

 

[henzINNIT]

But part of that is because they waited 30 years to make genuine sequels.

A lot of it is this. Major cast members died between films. The cast are beloved but mortal, unfortunately.

I mean that detailed things will risk to be inaccurate since the future isn't solid enough to provide details.

But they have always been pretty accurate.

I was going by your description of the vision as I don't remember the exact words being used, and what happens certainly doesn't align with what you said a couple of posts ago.

You mean this?

Luke has spent decades of his life rebuilding what his father destroyed. The galaxy is at peace, his friends are safe, and Luke is training new students. He then sees the future of Ben to cause another generation of death and suffering. They have tried to save Ben's soul but it appears to be in vain. Luke could prevent untold darkness by snuffing out one life, and considers it, for a moment.

How is this inconsistent? What doesn't align?

No one did anything to bring Ben back. For some it was because they didn't manage to get to him, for Luke it was because he couldn't be arsed to try.

We know they tried. We know Snoke was working on Kylo for some time, and eventually Leia sent him to Luke for guidance. Luke cemented Kylo's turn with that moment of weakness. We don't know what happened after his turn, but the ST has featured a lot of people trying to bring Ben back.

Luke has plenty of flaws in the OT. That's one reason why he's a better character than Rey. I just prefer his flaws to be written consistent to his character. I've seen far more complex characters than Luke be written to develop far more logically than what Rian shoehorned in. This was an area I hoped Disney-owned Lucasfilm would be better at than Lucas, but it was an empty hope.

I disagree obviously, but for what it's worth I sympathize with the disappointment.

(Oh and yeah Luke>Rey)

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

You mean this?

Luke has spent decades of his life rebuilding what his father destroyed. The galaxy is at peace, his friends are safe, and Luke is training new students. He then sees the future of Ben to cause another generation of death and suffering. They have tried to save Ben's soul but it appears to be in vain. Luke could prevent untold darkness by snuffing out one life, and considers it, for a moment.

How is this inconsistent? What doesn't align?

That they've tried to save Ben's soul. Luke didn't do crap (Ben's parents might have tried, but probably couldn't get to him) so he made a different future. By actively not trying he's making the result of that possible future much more likely to become real, which he must realize, so paradoxally he's pretty much trying to get the future of which he's afraid.

Then he goes and pretends that the Jedi didn't keep the galaxy free from the dark for thousands of years, and that he was the one that tore down the threat that finally defeated the Jedi, and that he did it by using the teachings of the Jedi.

 

[henzINNIT]

That they've tried to save Ben's soul. Luke didn't do crap (Ben's parents might have tried, but probably couldn't get to him) so he made a different future. By actively not trying he's making the result of that possible future much more likely to become real, which he must realize, so paradoxally he's pretty much trying to get the future of which he's afraid.

Then he goes and pretends that the Jedi didn't keep the galaxy free from the dark for thousands of years, and that he was the one that tore down the threat that finally defeated the Jedi, and that he did it by using the teachings of the Jedi.

You're saying Luke didn't do anything when the film establishes that he did. He tried to do good and failed. That is not the same as doing nothing.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

You're saying Luke didn't do anything when the film establishes that he did. He tried to do good and failed. That is not the same as doing nothing.

I was referring to what he did to help Ben after he had been seduced by Snoke.

 

[The Guard]

At some point you have to allow that these are movies, with a finite amount of space for story. They essentially had Hamill for one film and two cameos, from appearances, or at least that's what was planned for.

There likely isn't the screentime to effectively show Luke trying to help Kylo, not in any satisfying way, and also develop the new characters. Also, wouldn't having Luke try to help Ben after his fall be sort of redundant if that's what Rey is also doing, and basically a retread of Luke trying to help Vader, or Obi Wan trying to help Vader?

Rey, a completely different character, took up Skywalker's cause and tried to help Kylo, which in itself was kind of redundant thematically within the franchise0, but at least it wasn't Luke or his own mentor doing it again.

Its implied that Luke knew Kylo was struggling with The Dark Side, and tried to help him, and I think there's some weight to Kylo not being able to be redeemed in TLJ, at least at the point he and Luke meet again.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

At some point you have to allow that these are movies, with a finite amount of space for story. They essentially had Hamill for one film and two cameos, from appearances, or at least that's what was planned for.

There likely isn't the screentime to effectively show Luke trying to help Kylo, not in any satisfying way, and also develop the new characters. Also, wouldn't having Luke try to help Ben after his fall be sort of redundant if that's what Rey is also doing, and basically a retread of Luke trying to help Vader, or Obi Wan trying to help Vader?

Rey, a completely different character, took up Skywalker's cause and tried to help Kylo, which in itself was kind of redundant thematically within the franchise0, but at least it wasn't Luke or his own mentor doing it again.

Its implied that Luke knew Kylo was struggling with The Dark Side, and tried to help him, and I think there's some weight to Kylo not being able to be redeemed in TLJ, at least at the point he and Luke meet again.

They certainly had time to show Luke doing something given how much time they waste on **** that goes nowhere in that movie. Even if it's rushed it's still far more satisfying than writing Luke in a way that isn't true to his character.

And don't talk about trying to avoid redundancy in the sequel trilogy. Like it wasn't redundant of Rian to copy the escape from Hoth, the battle of Hoth and the Emperor's throne room (complete with new Vader saving new Luke by killing new Emperor). Like it wasn't redundant to just revive the Empire and have them vs the Rebellion with new names again.

And if there's too much with Luke and Rey trying to do it, then write Rey to do something new instead as she has no obvious reason to try to turn Ben back. That reason was entirely created by Rian, and yet another step in making Rey little more than a copy of Luke that just happens to be amazing at everything. No, it's because of Rian setting her on that path that makes the most redundancy since then it becomes a significant focus of both TLJ and TROS, instead of just being a scene with Han in TFA and a short flashback in TLJ. So you just argued for what creates more redundancy while saying that you want less of it.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Luke in the comic and novels of Expanded Universe is basically the Grand Master jedi . He was immensely powerful and the wisest in the force. he had long fulliling life with a family of his own, Mara Jade and their son Ben Skywalker. Leia and Han had several kids (Anakin, Jacen & Jaina) his niece and nephews. He suffered times of hardships but rose above it.


In comparison to the sequel film trilogy .I much more prefer the EU Canon of Luke. Its tragic that Mark Hamill had to protray a lesser version thanks to Rian Johnson. At least in Rise of Skywalker we got to see him come back as the beacon of light and inspiration one last time I'm greatful for J.J. Abrams for that .

 

[The Guard]

They certainly had time to show Luke doing something given how much time they waste on **** that goes nowhere

What did they waste a bunch of time on that went nowhere?

And don't talk about trying to avoid redundancy in the sequel trilogy. Like it wasn't redundant of Rian to copy the escape from Hoth, the battle of Hoth and the Emperor's throne room (complete with new Vader saving new Luke by killing new Emperor). Like it wasn't redundant to just revive the Empire and have them vs the Rebellion with new names again.

Never said it wasn't.

And if there's too much with Luke and Rey trying to do it, then write Rey to do something new instead as she has no obvious reason to try to turn Ben back.

Except for the reasons the films give. She too has felt the pull of the Dark Side...and their fates are essentially intertwined because of Snoke's interest in her power. They have a connection. He's a major opposing force to her Resistance. These are all fairly obvious reasons.

That reason was entirely created by Rian, and yet another step in making Rey little more than a copy of Luke that just happens to be amazing at everything.

How can she be a copy of Luke when he wasn't amazing at everything?

No, it's because of Rian setting her on that path that makes the most redundancy since then it becomes a significant focus of both TLJ and TROS, instead of just being a scene with Han in TFA and a short flashback in TLJ. So you just argued for what creates more redundancy
while saying that you want less of it.

I don't understand most of that.

I did not say that I wanted less reduncancy, actually, I just pointed out that it would be one more fairly direct redundancy in the character.

 

[writer0327]

I get if it wasn't their preference, but it's separate from if it's a criticism based on that they didn't get what they wanted. That's unfair.

That's somewhat my point. If Rian gave them what they wanted, even if poorly executed, folks would mainly be happy. With his choice of having Luke undergo in a crisis of faith, no amount of perfect writing or acting would ever satisfy those who didn't want this version of Luke in the first place, which is where most of the TLJ dissatisfaction comes from.

 

[Limonade]

TFA started out so strong. Having Luke missing was such a great way to start the sequel trilogy.

Had they done something different other than having Luke follow Yoda's path in being hermit, I would've been more onboard. Like have Luke trapped, in carbonite or something new, and have Rey rescue him from some dastardly collector--then have Rey shadow Luke as he continues on his own quest--while training her (being just like the Luke of the OT--full of optimism and wisdom)

I mean the hermit trope is something I've seen before too many times--especially when we saw a similar trope with Yoda and the prequels... it was a bit disheartening that the writers couldn't try something else.

 

[Mani-Man]

TFA started out so strong. Having Luke missing was such a great way to start the sequel trilogy.

Had they done something different other than having Luke follow Yoda's path in being hermit, I would've been more onboard. Like have Luke trapped, in carbonite or something new, and have Rey rescue him from some dastardly collector--then have Rey shadow Luke as he continues on his own quest--while training her (being just like the Luke of the OT--full of optimism and wisdom)

I mean the hermit trope is something I've seen before too many times--especially when we saw a similar trope with Yoda and the prequels... it was a bit disheartening that the writers couldn't try something else.

They did try something new, they did PTSD Luke while most of the other jedi hermits were "just" hiding and waiting.
Luke activly cutting himself off because of everything is a nice idea.

Its where i will always defend TLJ...but not in the fact that they imo wasted that storyline and luke in general.
There was so much you could have done with that.
Even looking at ROS, lukes role could have been great there if they wouldnt have killed him in TLJ.
They could have him die by healing a dying kylo and rey or so...there is so incredible much you could have done with Luke freaking Skywalker and Johnson wasted it.

 

[Limonade]

They did try something new, they did PTSD Luke while most of the other jedi hermits were "just" hiding and waiting.
Luke activly cutting himself off because of everything is a nice idea.

Its where i will always defend TLJ...but not in the fact that they imo wasted that storyline and luke in general.
There was so much you could have done with that.
Even looking at ROS, lukes role could have been great there if they wouldnt have killed him in TLJ.
They could have him die by healing a dying kylo and rey or so...there is so incredible much you could have done with Luke freaking Skywalker and Johnson wasted it.

But Luke was hiding--it turns out during TLJ. While in TFA they said he was missing.

Again a search and rescue plot to me is more exciting than going and finding out Luke Skywalker did a 180 and simply wanted nothing to do with the Jedi, nor his allies, or family.

Obviously there's interesting ways to explore each scenario. But the way they went about Luke didn't progress the overarching story that much--only that, as some here has pointed out, it was more of a smoke and mirrors approach which is impressive but ultimately a throw away approach to an unsatisfying hero's journey.

 

[Doctor Jones]

That's somewhat my point. If Rian gave them what they wanted, even if poorly executed, folks would mainly be happy. With his choice of having Luke undergo in a crisis of faith, no amount of perfect writing or acting would ever satisfy those who didn't want this version of Luke in the first place, which is where most of the TLJ dissatisfaction comes from.

There's not much you can do about that. If you make creative decisions to please people, nobody will be happy anyway. If what fans idea of Luke didn't fit what Johnson was thematically trying to do with the film, then he had every right to not do it. I just think it's unfair to criticize him based on that. Doesn't mean you can't still dislike the idea though. The fans don't have ownership over something like a creative does, and it's frustrating that they think they're the gatekeepers of it.

I respect Johnson for having his vision and sticking to it, and not worrying about what the fans thought. He did the right thing. People act like Johnson had malicious intent or something. He was just trying to say something about the state of the force and SW. Despite what you think of how he did it, I don't think he should be criticized on that idea alone.

 

[Mani-Man]

But Luke was hiding--it turns out during TLJ. While in TFA they said he was missing.

Again a search and rescue plot to me is more exciting than going and finding out Luke Skywalker did a 180 and simply wanted nothing to do with the Jedi, nor his allies, or family.

Obviously there's interesting ways to explore each scenario. But the way they went about Luke didn't progress the overarching story that much--only that, as some here has pointed out, it was more of a smoke and mirrors approach which is impressive but ultimately a throw away approach to an unsatisfying hero's journey.

For you its more exciting yeah, but thats the thing...there where literally hundreds of possible ideas to go with, millions of fans had their own idea where TLJ to them should go to be exciting.
But for Johnson, the idea that was in TLJ is what he thought was the most exciting.

Was it the best to me personally? Not really.
I appreciate the idea and where he came from, but to me he executed it not to my satisfaction.
But it is what it is and as i always said and will, i give Johnson a lot of credit to have the guts and do what he did.

There's not much you can do about that. If you make creative decisions to please people, nobody will be happy anyway. If what fans idea of Luke didn't fit what Johnson was thematically trying to do with the film, then he had every right to not do it. I just think it's unfair to criticize him based on that. Doesn't mean you can't still dislike the idea though. The fans don't have ownership over something like a creative does, and it's frustrating that they think they're the gatekeepers of it.

I respect Johnson for having his vision and sticking to it, and not worrying about what the fans thought. He did the right thing. People act like Johnson had malicious intent or something. He was just trying to say something about the state of the force and SW. Despite what you think of how he did it, I don't think he should be criticized on that idea alone.

Yup, in the end a decision must be made...and no decision pleases everybody, thats simply the nature of things.
Johnsons had a certain idea, brought it to Disney and they said yes.
As much as i hate the result of TLJ, i dont think for one second he wanted to ruin things...he wanted to go away from having the skywalkers be the center of this universe and back to how the force and all works in a bigger sense.
He wanted to go away from the strict idea of the "skywalker saga" and instead wanted to open it up more...that is not the worst idea.
That it is not what many people wanted, is a no brainer.
People wanted the sequels to be about the skywalkers and therefore you cant blame people too who are upset with Johnson.
But the idea behind TLJ isnt as bad as people make it imo.

 

[writer0327]

There's not much you can do about that. If you make creative decisions to please people, nobody will be happy anyway. If what fans idea of Luke didn't fit what Johnson was thematically trying to do with the film, then he had every right to not do it. I just think it's unfair to criticize him based on that. Doesn't mean you can't still dislike the idea though. The fans don't have ownership over something like a creative does, and it's frustrating that they think they're the gatekeepers of it.

I respect Johnson for having his vision and sticking to it, and not worrying about what the fans thought. He did the right thing. People act like Johnson had malicious intent or something. He was just trying to say something about the state of the force and SW. Despite what you think of how he did it, I don't think he should be criticized on that idea alone.

Don't get me wrong, I love TLJ, its my second favorite SW film. I'm saying that this notion of Rian ruined SW because of how he handled things with poor writing, misunderstanding of the characters, or the execution of his own story is false. Its not that he misunderstood the characters, he just took them places the audience didn't want to go.

Can a franchise so beholden to its own past endure new artists and voices challenging it? Are people willing to let it grow and evolve? Based on the results so far, it seems mixed.

 

[Limonade]

Don't get me wrong, I love TLJ, its my second favorite SW film. I'm saying that this notion of Rian ruined SW because of how he handled things with poor writing, misunderstanding of the characters, or the execution of his own story is false. Its not that he misunderstood the characters, he just took them places the audience didn't want to go.

Can a franchise so beholden to its own past endure new artists and voices challenging it? Are people willing to let it grow and evolve? Based on the results so far, it seems mixed.

I mean just like classic Disney animated films have little room for artistic expression when they are transported to a theme park or merchandise. It has to stay within a certain realm of cohesion.

Marvel films are like that to an extent.

 

[Detective Conan]

I’m quite impressed with the level of passion here. I think most of you guys here who either argued against or for TLJ’s treatment of Luke make really compelling arguments. Though I do like The Last Jedi’s take on Luke a lot I must admit Johnson could’ve done better than what he did(though I still like his version of Luke a lot).

 

[Detective Conan]

Luke in the comic and novels of Expanded Universe is basically the Grand Master jedi . He was immensely powerful and the wisest in the force. he had long fulliling life with a family of his own, Mara Jade and their son Ben Skywalker. Leia and Han had several kids (Anakin, Jacen & Jaina) his niece and nephews. He suffered times of hardships but rose above it.
View attachment 30777

In comparison to the sequel film trilogy .I much more prefer the EU Canon of Luke. Its tragic that Mark Hamill had to protray a lesser version thanks to Rian Johnson. At least in Rise of Skywalker we got to see him come back as the beacon of light and inspiration one last time I'm greatful for J.J. Abrams for that .

He literally came back as a beacon of light and inspiration one last time in TLJ when he Force projected to Crait and sacrificed his life to save what remained of the Resistance from being wiped out by the First Order. I actually found the way Luke was handled in Rise Of Skywalker to be a major step down from the way he was handled in The Last Jedi. While I don’t subscribe to the notion that Abrams was deliberately retconning Luke in order to try and “fix” what Johnson broke or anything, I found the way he was treated to come across as nothing but cheap fanservice meant to appease fans who were disappointed with how the character was treated in the last film. Sure, Luke being his old optimistic self is consistent with the end of Last Jedi where he had regained his hope but the way it was executed felt quite off to me.

Not to mention he looked awful as a force ghost, imo. If this was the best they could do with the character I’d rather he’d not appear in the movie at all.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

What did they waste a bunch of time on that went nowhere?



Never said it wasn't.



Except for the reasons the films give. She too has felt the pull of the Dark Side...and their fates are essentially intertwined because of Snoke's interest in her power. They have a connection. He's a major opposing force to her Resistance. These are all fairly obvious reasons.



How can she be a copy of Luke when he wasn't amazing at everything?



I don't understand most of that.

I did not say that I wanted less reduncancy, actually, I just pointed out that it would be one more fairly direct redundancy in the character.

Rey's story goes nowhere after they establish the bond, she ends the movie with the same relationships and statuses as she began. The entire Canto Bight scene is irrelevant fluff for Finn that just confirms that they don't know what to do with him, as it's Rose that gets to talk about the troubled past even though Finn is already established to have been forced into service as a kid. There's a lot of things in this movie that are less important than making Luke consistent and logical. Of course making Finn's character relevant is also important, but clearly he wasn't able to do that. No wonder Boyega and Hamill had supportive talks about being written like ****.

So if the trilogy is full of redundancy it's hardly a big thing if another small part is added. It's already beyond the point of where it's too much.

You're thinking backwards. The movie is what it is because of Rian writing it so. If he did a proper Luke he could just have written Rey so it wasn't necessary for her to do the same, if that's what's desired. She still doesn't accomplish anything in that regard in the movie and just repeats the same lesson regarding her parents as she did in the first one.

She's a copy of Luke as she's set up. A force sensitive young person with a good heart living on a desert planet, being dragged into the story by having to leave the planet with a droid the enemy is after, etc. They then of course develop differently as Luke actually has a personality arc and Rey remains bland and is only defined by her power and general greatness. Of course you could most likely easily figure out the point, but for some reason just decided to make a semantic argument because they are so useful.

I was saying that the greatest amount of redundancy regarding redeeming Ben is created by making Rey invested in it, because then it becomes a significant focus of two of the three movies in the trilogy. If Luke does what he of course would do by any stretch of logic it would just be a short flashback scene. Ergo if one wants to reduce the redundancy it's Rey that shouldn't be bothered with it. And if you don't want less redundancy, why even bring this up to begin with? You're the one that brought it up and if you don't want less of it you can't reasonably see it as a negative, which makes the entire discussion around it pointless.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Don't get me wrong, I love TLJ, its my second favorite SW film. I'm saying that this notion of Rian ruined SW because of how he handled things with poor writing, misunderstanding of the characters, or the execution of his own story is false. Its not that he misunderstood the characters, he just took them places the audience didn't want to go.

Can a franchise so beholden to its own past endure new artists and voices challenging it? Are people willing to let it grow and evolve? Based on the results so far, it seems mixed.

No, he took them in places that they wouldn't go without a logical explanation, and he wasn't smart enough to write something better for Luke than to explain his completely contradictory personality by saying that he also acted completely contradictory to his personality in a flashback as well. Literally some of the dumbest character writing I've ever seen.

You can evolve things as long as you're good enough to provide logical reasoning for why it happens. The only ones buying this are the people just willing to swallow whatever Rian says. You'd fail a writing class if you wrote character development like that, and a professional writer should be well passed that level.

 

[writer0327]

No, he took them in places that they wouldn't go without a logical explanation, and he wasn't smart enough to write something better for Luke than to explain his completely contradictory personality by saying that he also acted completely contradictory to his personality in a flashback as well. Literally some of the dumbest character writing I've ever seen.

You can evolve things as long as you're good enough to provide logical reasoning for why it happens. The only ones buying this are the people just willing to swallow whatever Rian says. You'd fail a writing class if you wrote character development like that, and a professional writer should be well passed that level.

A crisis of faith is a logical reason. Why he had a crisis requires a longer analysis for some, but I'm fine with the facts in and of themselves as presented. It makes sense for Luke to undergo a crisis of faith when considering his history of rash, emotional reactions, but I understand why others can't come to terms with it.