The Rise of Skywalker Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker (IX)

[henzINNIT]

"Stick Luke on an island while his friends die elsewhere." All hail JJ's idea.

And I must apologise to Ackbar fans but he's not a character. He's a fishman, and a meme.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

What was JJ’s idea? Not sure how you can portray him as this optimistic hero that everyone wanted him to be while he was in hiding during the events of TFA? He had to be a broken man, IMO, for him to to not save the day during the first movie.

We won't know all the details but JJ wanted to end TFA with Luke being shown as powerful in the Force, levitating boulders etc.

Luke could be broken in ways that aren't mind-numbingly stupid as well. For example by just having had Snoke lure Ben away, Luke trying to confront the new threat and fail against Snoke and Kylo. That failure could be a reasonable reason why Luke goes away, trying to look for new answers, without completely rewriting the core of the character just because you're too stupid to come up with something that fits.

To not even have had Luke try to do the right thing, despite what his character is all about, is incredibly stupid. Even more so to try to justify that by saying that Luke would think about murdering his nephew in cold blood like that. No understanding of the character whatsoever.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

"Stick Luke on an island while his friends die elsewhere." All hail JJ's idea.

And I must apologise to Ackbar fans but he's not a character. He's a fishman, and a meme.

It was Rian that made the reason why Luke was there incredibly stupid. Before he came along there were reasonable and believable reasons on the table.

Ackbar isn't much less of a character than Rey, who's just defined by power. Screen time says nothing when it's not used well.

 

[moviedoors]

Ackbar isn't much less of a character than Rey,

Oh come on.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Oh come on.

Exaggerated for fun of course, but I don't think Rey is much of a character. She really doesn't develop much at all, but is instantly good at everything. She's apparently even the best pilot in the Resistance now. Move over Poe, Rey needs to be the best at everything to compensate.

 

[Karelia]

We won't know all the details but JJ wanted to end TFA with Luke being shown as powerful in the Force, levitating boulders etc.

Luke could be broken in ways that aren't mind-numbingly stupid as well. For example by just having had Snoke lure Ben away, Luke trying to confront the new threat and fail against Snoke and Kylo. That failure could be a reasonable reason why Luke goes away, trying to look for new answers, without completely rewriting the core of the character just because you're too stupid to come up with something that fits.

To not even have had Luke try to do the right thing, despite what his character is all about, is incredibly stupid. Even more so to try to justify that by saying that Luke would think about murdering his nephew in cold blood like that. No understanding of the character whatsoever.

Couldn't agree with you more!

 

[Fincher]

I'm not going to say that Rey isn't a character (well, I'm not going to say that Ackbar isn't, either, because anyone who appears in these movies is literally speaking a character), but I will say that they don't treat her consistently and she suffers for it. There's a point to which you have to balance the needs of the characters with the needs of the plot, and it's understandable that Star Wars would be somewhat plot-oriented, but I think they went too far with it.

In The Force Awakens, one of the main things we know about Rey is that she's basically an urchin. She grew up all on her own, she scavenges, she's undisclipined and uncouth. The other big thing about her (well, other than her being good and making friends) is that she's really, really good at this Force thing, and she does it all on her own. She's self-taught, and she's awesome.

So in The Last Jedi, they could have easily justified it that she wouldn't want to be trained by Luke because she's done just fine with this Force thing so far, but they don't, so fine. I think they could have done more to show her as an unruly student, take the opportunity to build on her character, but they don't, so fine, whatever. But not only are we supposed to believe that she falls in love with Kylo after he kills her friend, his own father, in front of her, a hard sell for people in general, but we're supposed to believe that she trusts him enough to go to First Order and face his Sith master with him. Uh huh. Rey, who grew up on Jakku, is apparently the most trusting person in this whole film series. She's like the last person I would expect to do that. They're selling her as being extremely naive, like she's some sheltered princess who wandered out of her castle for the first time. She's not Rapunzel from Tangled, and she's not Bella Swanwalker.

And then in Rise of Skywalker...

Spoiler

After Rey rejects Luke upon finding out that he came close to killing his former student in his sleep, she apparently decides that she's going to train under his sister and call her Master. Rey from Jakku, being all trusting and inclined to taking orders from others. Yeah...no. I call b******t. I'm sorry, but it's just b******t. It would be much better character work if Leia revealed that she had force training and Rey was like, "You know, I've got this force thing pretty well covered, and I'd rather not be murdered in my sleep, so thanks but no thanks." Not in those exact words, but still. But they wanted Leia to play Jedi Master, or they wanted Rey to seem less powerful, or whatever, so they just treat Rey like a one-size-fits-all character that can be plugged into any role. And they pretty much ignore Finn being a former stormtrooper and then pretty much ignore Finn it would seem in RoS. And Poe gets a new personality in The Last Jedi, although that's somewhat more understandable given that there wasn't a lot to Poe in the first movie.

Putting aside how that affects these movies, if the goal here is to sell audiences on the idea that it's worth telling stories about characters who weren't in the original Star Wars movies, then it would help if these movies showed more of an interest in their new characters. You know, other than the one who's a Skywalker. The reason people remember and care about the original trilogy characters is that they had identifiable traits that carried from movie to movie, and that's why people care when they don't think Luke is acting like Luke. Even though I like Rey, I doubt she's going to engender the same reactions in the future when they can't maintain a sense of who Rey is beyond good Force user who inexplicably loves a Sith.

 

[Joefixit]

I wish at the end of TLJ that Rey would have turned to the dark side and went with Kylo leaving Luke to confront them both at the conclusion. He battles both of them to a stand still until the resistance escapes and Leia rescues him in the falcon setting up a supposed showdown in ROS..

Somehow I would have the other two switch back in ROS and still not be enough to beat the emperor only to have Anakin fight him as a force ghost at the end along with Luke and Leia.. Total fan fiction, but I would have loved to seen that. It fits no where in the story they built up so understandable they couldn’t go that way, but that’s a Star Wars movie I would go to see repeatedly!! You could still end it the same way Rey, but have her witness the skywalker vs sidious duel before having Anakin hand her the lightsaber at the end and give her the speech all they know they have now passed on to her and it’s her duty to carry on the legacy..

 

[writer0327]

It was Rian that made the reason why Luke was there incredibly stupid. Before he came along there were reasonable and believable reasons on the table.

Ackbar isn't much less of a character than Rey, who's just defined by power. Screen time says nothing when it's not used well.

Many good writers could come up with a litany of reasons why Luke was on the island in the first place, but that isn't the problem. Its why Luke stayed on the island while his nephew skewered his best friend and felt nothing, that's the problem.

The same "Luke" everyone says would never had turned his back on his nephew (just as he never turned his back on Vader) is the same "Luke" that left his training with Yoda to save his friends in ESB when he sensed they were in danger.

Now think about that for a moment. He left his training, very serious and important training, despite the earnest pleading from Yoda and Obi-Wan to stay and finish this training, to go and save his friends. So it begs the question: why would this same "Luke" remain secluded on the island while Ben is killing Han. Again, think about that for a moment. That single moment should have been one of the most traumatic events in Luke's entire lifetime. His nephew, son of his sister and his best friend, kills his father, his best friend. The Force should have been sending off all kinds of alarm bells in Luke's soul. Leia felt it, so why didn't Luke? Better yet, why didn't Luke have the same premonitions like he had in ESB? Why wasn't he there trying to stop it, why?

The ONLY believable reason that can be considered is that he cut himself off from the Force, so he wouldn't feel anything at all. Why would he do that? Well JJ gave us the answer in TFA and it all fits perfectly. And it makes Luke a tangible, real human being that has character flaws.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Many good writers could come up with a litany of reasons why Luke was on the island in the first place, but that isn't the problem. Its why Luke stayed on the island while his nephew skewered his best friend and felt nothing, that's the problem.

The same "Luke" everyone says would never had turned his back on his nephew (just as he never turned his back on Vader) is the same "Luke" that left his training with Yoda to save his friends in ESB when he sensed they were in danger.

Now think about that for a moment. He left his training, very serious and important training, despite the earnest pleading from Yoda and Obi-Wan to stay and finish this training, to go and save his friends. So it begs the question: why would this same "Luke" remain secluded on the island while Ben is killing Han. Again, think about that for a moment. That single moment should have been one of the most traumatic events in Luke's entire lifetime. His nephew, son of his sister and his best friend, kills his father, his best friend. The Force should have been sending off all kinds of alarm bells in Luke's soul. Leia felt it, so why didn't Luke? Better yet, why didn't Luke have the same premonitions like he had in ESB? Why wasn't he there trying to stop it, why?

The ONLY believable reason that can be considered is that he cut himself off from the Force, so he wouldn't feel anything at all. Why would he do that? Well JJ gave us the answer in TFA and it all fits perfectly. And it makes Luke a tangible, real human being that has character flaws.

I disagree here, I don't think you're comparing equal matters.

Luke learning patience in order to achieve the greater goal is part of his development in the OT because he's not nearly as rash in RotJ where he's supposed to have learned enough to be close to being a Jedi Knight. To have that development continue as he ascends to the level of master is very organic to what we've seen before, and it's what Jedi training is about. So if he was on the island to gain knowledge or power necessary to succeed where he previously failed, or whatever other reason that explains his absence more logically than what we got, it can make some sense. If anything it makes no sense to have Luke rush back in your scenario because if he thinks he can make a difference in that regard he shouldn't be gone in the first place.

To abandon everyone he cares about, and the entire galaxy, as soon as a new dark force shows up is the very antitheses of both Luke and of being a Jedi. Especially because he did it just because it was hard. This makes no sense whatsoever and is incredibly poor character writing that has left Luke as probably the worst Jedi we know of, save for those that turned evil. He's no longer fit to even be mentioned together with Obi-Wan or Yoda.

That's not saying that having Luke away during the first film was the best idea. It's just that it's not nearly the same devastating blow to the character as what TLJ did to him.

 

[titansupes]

The only reason Luke sensed Han's pain is because Vader wanted him to-- He tortured Han explicitly so waves would be sent through the Force, drawing Luke to him.

"They didn't even ask me any questions..."

"They don't even want you! They're after some kid called Skywalker!"
"And we're the bait..."

If Vader hadn't done that, Luke likely wouldn't have known anything. Similar to how Yoda-- or any other Jedi-- had no idea the entire Order was being executed until it was already happening.

So Luke-- if he'd been connected to the Force when Kylo killed Han-- would probably only have felt it when it happened, like Leia did.

 

[writer0327]

I disagree here, I don't think you're comparing equal matters.

Luke learning patience in order to achieve the greater goal is part of his development in the OT because he's not nearly as rash in RotJ where he's supposed to have learned enough to be close to being a Jedi Knight. To have that development continue as he ascends to the level of master is very organic to what we've seen before, and it's what Jedi training is about. So if he was on the island to gain knowledge or power necessary to succeed where he previously failed, or whatever other reason that explains his absence more logically than what we got, it can make some sense. If anything it makes no sense to have Luke rush back in your scenario because if he thinks he can make a difference in that regard he shouldn't be gone in the first place.

To abandon everyone he cares about, and the entire galaxy, as soon as a new dark force shows up is the very antitheses of both Luke and of being a Jedi. Especially because he did it just because it was hard. This makes no sense whatsoever and is incredibly poor character writing that has left Luke as probably the worst Jedi we know of, save for those that turned evil. He's no longer fit to even be mentioned together with Obi-Wan or Yoda.

That's not saying that having Luke away during the first film was the best idea. It's just that it's not nearly the same devastating blow to the character as what TLJ did to him.

I agree, there's a number of reasons why Luke could've been on the island in the first place. He's apparently looking for the first Jedi temple according to Han, so it could have been solid reasons to be there that doesn't involve him abandoning anyone at all. Hell he didn't abandon everyone when he left to visit Yoda for training twice, both in Empire and ROTJ. So there are plausible reasons for Luke to be on Ahch-To during the events of TFA. Its him remaining there when his friends were in danger at the end of TFA, that's the problem. It makes complete sense for him to rush back to save his friends if he senses danger. Its consistent with his past. Even if he didn't make it to save Han, he surely should have been en route. Even during the lightsaber fight at the end, when the saber was force-pulled by Rey, everyone expected that to be Luke. We expected Luke would arrive at the end to save Rey and Finn, but JJ had different ideas.

I can appreciate why folks didn't like what Rian Johnson did to the character of Luke, they didn't want to see Luke had failed, although I feel it did his character justice, not only with the history of his character archetype (see King Arthur) but also from the material that JJ left him to work with, which painted Rian into a corner. But we have to be consistent all the way through. If it was inconsistent with Luke's character to go into hiding from the fight, then it was first also inconsistent for him to be on that island at the end of TFA while his best friend was being killed by his nephew. That traumatic event had to be explained and the only rational explanation is he was cut off from the Force.

 

[writer0327]

The only reason Luke sensed Han's pain is because Vader wanted him to-- He tortured Han explicitly so waves would be sent through the Force, drawing Luke to him.

"They didn't even ask me any questions..."

"They don't even want you! They're after some kid called Skywalker!"
"And we're the bait..."

If Vader hadn't done that, Luke likely wouldn't have known anything. Similar to how Yoda-- or any other Jedi-- had no idea the entire Order was being executed until it was already happening.

So Luke-- if he'd been connected to the Force when Kylo killed Han-- would probably only have felt it when it happened, like Leia did.

Go back and watch Empire again. Luke had the vision before they even landed on Bespin.

 

[Fincher]

The new movies made adjustments to The Force (Ghost Yoda doing lightning, the dyad), so let's say that instead of that stuff, Snoke developed a dark side ability that allowed him to disrupt someone's connection to The Force. Luke faces him, and he messes Luke up so Luke can't control his powers and is a danger to everyone around him. Also, it's slowly killing Luke. So Luke isolates himself to keep those around him safe, doesn't tell them why because they'll want to save him, but he has a vision of the future where Rey will come to him, so he leaves a road map so she can find him. Rey arrives, and based on his experience from having Snoke's attack done to him he's able to teach her how to defend herself against Snoke's power so that she can be the one to save everyone. Then he dies.

So Luke is a wise mentor like Obi-Wan and Yoda, he teaches Rey something that she believably would need help with despite being super awesome, and it fits into the mystery box aspect because viewers wouldn't see it coming.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I agree, there's a number of reasons why Luke could've been on the island in the first place. He's apparently looking for the first Jedi temple according to Han, so it could have been solid reasons to be there that doesn't involve him abandoning anyone at all. Hell he didn't abandon everyone when he left to visit Yoda for training twice, both in Empire and ROTJ. So there are plausible reasons for Luke to be on Ahch-To during the events of TFA. Its him remaining there when his friends were in danger at the end of TFA, that's the problem. It makes complete sense for him to rush back to save his friends if he senses danger. Its consistent with his past. Even if he didn't make it to save Han, he surely should have been en route. Even during the lightsaber fight at the end, when the sabre was force-pulled by Rey, everyone expected that to be Luke. We expected Luke would arrive at the end to save Rey and Finn, but JJ had different ideas.

I can appreciate why folks didn't like what Rian Johnson did to the character of Luke, they didn't want to see Luke had failed, although I feel it did his character justice, not only with the history of his character archetype (see King Arthur) but also from the material that JJ left him to work with, which painted Rian into a corner. But we have to be consistent all the way through. If it was inconsistent with Luke's character to go into hiding from the fight, then it was first also inconsistent for him to be on that island at the end of TFA while his best friend was being killed by his nephew. That traumatic event had to be explained and the only rational explanation is he was cut off from the Force.

I don't have any issues with Luke failing at something and being broken over it. The problem is that Luke never really failed in what TLJ presented, he just tucked his tail and ran before he even tried to do something regarding the new darkness.

If you instead have Ben get lured away by Snoke and when Luke realizes what Snoke is and goes after him to stop the dark side and to save his nephew he can fail to stand up to both. Preferably a sort of even battle between him and Snoke where Kylo becomes the deciding factor, to make his fall be even more important. Since Luke then failed he needs to seek out something new (old) to be able to deal with the threat, which explains why he leaves, and it's not hiding from anything. It's an action forced by necessity and not a despicable action caused by cowardice and lack of responsibility.

That will in turn also not make him come back when he senses that Han dies because him coming back won't help enough, which he knows from actually having tried before. He still needs to find what he's looking for in order to save everyone in the galaxy, which is the kind of patience we started to see in RotJ and we could logically expect that he fully found as a Jedi Master.

There we have an example that makes Luke consistent with his core traits and his previous character development, as well as also making Snoke and Kylo come across as a more scary threat as a bonus.

What I wrote above is the first thing that popped into my mind back when I noted that the reasoning behind Luke in TLJ was moronic and inconsistent. There are ways to do this example in a more elegant way, as well as other options entirely, but I'm not going into that as I want to show how something more logical than the actual film only took a few seconds of thought.

 

[writer0327]

I don't have any issues with Luke failing at something and being broken over it. The problem is that Luke never really failed in what TLJ presented, he just tucked his tail and ran before he even tried to do something regarding the new darkness.

If you instead have Ben get lured away by Snoke and when Luke realizes what Snoke is and goes after him to stop the dark side and to save his nephew he can fail to stand up to both. Preferably a sort of even battle between him and Snoke where Kylo becomes the deciding factor, to make his fall be even more important. Since Luke then failed he needs to seek out something new (old) to be able to deal with the threat, which explains why he leaves, and it's not hiding from anything. It's an action forced by necessity and not a despicable action caused by cowardice and lack of responsibility.

That will in turn also not make him come back when he senses that Han dies because him coming back won't help enough, which he knows from actually having tried before. He still needs to find what he's looking for in order to save everyone in the galaxy, which is the kind of patience we started to see in RotJ and we could logically expect that he fully found as a Jedi Master.

There we have an example that makes Luke consistent with his core traits and his previous character development, as well as also making Snoke and Kylo come across as a more scary threat as a bonus.

What I wrote above is the first thing that popped into my mind back when I noted that the reasoning behind Luke in TLJ was moronic and inconsistent. There are ways to do this example in a more elegant way, as well as other options entirely, but I'm not going into that as I want to show how something more logical than the actual film only took a few seconds of thought.

I think post-TFA, a lot of people had a similar idea in their heads as to why Luke was missing. He was looking for some ancient Jedi teaching that would help him defeat Snoke, or something to that effect. And I'm not going to say that such an idea would be boring as many already have, because I think any idea can be done well. However it is very standard. Saturday Morning cartoon fare. The "we have to go away to find the secret thing to beat the Big Bad" is one of the standard story tropes around. I personally had hoped we didn't wait 30 years for Luke Skywalker's return to watch him do something "standard".

Your example has Luke allowing his best friend Han to be murdered by his own nephew because "it won't help enough", as now Luke's main focus is to save everyone in the galaxy, not just his friend. Going back to ESB, he was in a similar situation and Yoda gave him this warning:

"If you leave now, help them you could, but you would destroy all for which they have fought, and suffered."

And guess what? Luke left anyway, and everything turned out (mostly) okay for this friends, minus a few months in carbon freeze for Han. In his experience, his decision was the right decision. And I can say almost with a certainty that if Luke simply allowed Han (his best friend, brother in law) to die because "it won't help enough", that just as many fans would have had a huge problem with that outcome as they had with Rian Johnson's decisions in TLJ. Instead of bringing up Luke still had faith in his father and never turned his back on him, they would bring up that Luke would have ran off to save his friends just like he did in ESB, and he never would've allowed his best friend to die at the hands of his nephew.

Face it, there is no amount of narrative wiggling that keeps Luke on that island while Han is being killed that is going to be 100% acceptable by any standards of consistency with the OT Luke. Sure it can be explained away with a good amount of "logic" (Rian's decision is logical, but not what people wanted to see from Luke after 30 years of waiting for him to return to the big screen), but nevertheless, it required Luke to undergo some sort of shift in character consistency to make sense of him remaining on the island while Han was killed. Whether we liked what Rian Johnson did or not simply reveals what we believe is important to Luke's character and to the franchise as a whole.

As far as Luke not failing, I would argue that losing his nephew to Snoke, inadvertently creating Kylo Ren and causing his Jedi students to be slaughtered in the process is failure. In TLJ, Luke says; "Han was Han about it, but Leia trusted me with her son." Ben is more than just some student who turned to the dark side. This fall was personal for Luke. And even in his discourse with Rey, Luke explains how he still approached training in a reckless manner after all these years (a character trait consistent with his character from the OT), and just as he indicated, Luke was as arrogant as all the Jedi who came before him. Failure, hypocrisy, hubris. All these things led to the creation of Kylo Ren, his own nephew.

The real problem with all of this is everyone has a different idea of what Star Wars is and how these characters should operate. Subjectivity at its finest, and honestly its not a bad thing.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I think post-TFA, a lot of people had a similar idea in their heads as to why Luke was missing. He was looking for some ancient Jedi teaching that would help him defeat Snoke, or something to that effect. And I'm not going to say that such an idea would be boring as many already have, because I think any idea can be done well. However it is very standard. Saturday Morning cartoon fare. The "we have to go away to find the secret thing to beat the Big Bad" is one of the standard story tropes around. I personally had hoped we didn't wait 30 years for Luke Skywalker's return to watch him do something "standard".

Your example has Luke allowing his best friend Han to be murdered by his own nephew because "it won't help enough", as now Luke's main focus is to save everyone in the galaxy, not just his friend. Going back to ESB, he was in a similar situation and Yoda gave him this warning:

"If you leave now, help them you could, but you would destroy all for which they have fought, and suffered."

And guess what? Luke left anyway, and everything turned out (mostly) okay for this friends, minus a few months in carbon freeze for Han. In his experience, his decision was the right decision. And I can say almost with a certainty that if Luke simply allowed Han (his best friend, brother in law) to die because "it won't help enough", that just as many fans would have had a huge problem with that outcome as they had with Rian Johnson's decisions in TLJ. Instead of bringing up Luke still had faith in his father and never turned his back on him, they would bring up that Luke would have ran off to save his friends just like he did in ESB, and he never would've allowed his best friend to die at the hands of his nephew.

Face it, there is no amount of narrative wiggling that keeps Luke on that island while Han is being killed that is going to be 100% acceptable by any standards of consistency with the OT Luke. Sure it can be explained away with a good amount of "logic" (Rian's decision is logical, but not what people wanted to see from Luke after 30 years of waiting for him to return to the big screen), but nevertheless, it required Luke to undergo some sort of shift in character consistency to make sense of him remaining on the island while Han was killed. Whether we liked what Rian Johnson did or not simply reveals what we believe is important to Luke's character and to the franchise as a whole.

As far as Luke not failing, I would argue that losing his nephew to Snoke, inadvertently creating Kylo Ren and causing his Jedi students to be slaughtered in the process is failure. In TLJ, Luke says; "Han was Han about it, but Leia trusted me with her son." Ben is more than just some student who turned to the dark side. This fall was personal for Luke. And even in his discourse with Rey, Luke explains how he still approached training in a reckless manner after all these years (a character trait consistent with his character from the OT), and just as he indicated, Luke was as arrogant as all the Jedi who came before him. Failure, hypocrisy, hubris. All these things led to the creation of Kylo Ren, his own nephew.

The real problem with all of this is everyone has a different idea of what Star Wars is and how these characters should operate. Subjectivity at its finest, and honestly its not a bad thing.

You're just ignoring what I've written about Luke's character development in the OT. He clearly goes away from being the rash person he is in ESB and before, and while we don't have to expect him to have learned patience fully in RotJ it's what you expect to continue as he ascends to the rank of master.

TFA also shows that Leia gets no indication that Han will die until she actually feels his death, so it's a far, far smaller leap to say that Luke only has the same feeling compared to the utterly atrocious character writing Rian made. One is deciding something with the very diffuse and even inconsistent rules of the Force, one is directly failing at the most fundamental level of character writing. After Han died there's nothing Luke can do to change that. I already said that this isn't perfect, and that Luke should have shown up in TFA, but this inconsistency is minuscule to what Rian created. The very notion of saying that Luke not showing up for Han is equal to not even trying to rescue Ben and leaving everyone behind to fend for themselves against this new dark lord shows a clear lack of balance in the argument.

And no, it's not logical to explain why a character is the exact opposite to what it used to be by showing that he acted completely opposite as he used to in a scene, that's just repeating the problem. There's no logic whatsoever that supports that Luke would get an extremely strong urge to murder his nephew in cold blood after being willing to lay down his life for the chance that one of the most evil men in the galaxy had some good in him. Even writing a broken Luke that wants to die works better if Luke first tried to do the right thing but failed, as something so simple avoids the logical mistakes. Rian's writing is honestly directly laughable in comparison. Not because it's not what I wanted but because it's so poorly constructed.

Sure, Luke failed at some level when he didn't see the threat that crept up on Ben, but while it should be personal, as you say, Rian's writing kind of makes it feel like it's not that personal as Luke instantly thought about murdering his nephew as soon as he saw some darkness in him. If he's that close to be able to murder him he can't be that attached to him, seeing how he didn't even raise his saber to kill the defenseless Vader when he was influenced by the dark side. Rian made Luke seem like a psychopath in that moment, and still we're to believe that he was emotionally crushed by failing Ben.

But going back to the failing, the failure he had (ignoring his psycho urges) was really mild compared to what he didn't even try to do. It's his duty to stand up to users of the dark side and protect the galaxy, but he never so much as raised a finger to do anything to oppose Snoke. Luke didn't see the threat that crept up on Ben but when he did so he should have tried to help him, as one can forgive missing something but not willingly ignoring something. Yet he never tried to talk to Ben or to go after him to help him as Ben was the victim of Snoke. Those are the things that any Jedi, especially Luke, would be expected to do.

But we're stuck with the most hopeful character in the Star Wars saga just giving up on everyone without even trying to do anything. Making sure everything from the OT means as little as possible, just like this new trilogy seems designed to do.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

You're just ignoring what I've written about Luke's character development in the OT. He clearly goes away from being the rash person he is in ESB and before, and while we don't have to expect him to have learned patience fully in RotJ it's what you expect to continue as he ascends to the rank of master.

TFA also shows that Leia gets no indication that Han will die until she actually feels his death, so it's a far, far smaller leap to say that Luke only has the same feeling compared to the utterly atrocious character writing Rian made. One is deciding something with the very diffuse and even inconsistent rules of the Force, one is directly failing at the most fundamental level of character writing. After Han died there's nothing Luke can do to change that. I already said that this isn't perfect, and that Luke should have shown up in TFA, but this inconsistency is minuscule to what Rian created. The very notion of saying that Luke not showing up for Han is equal to not even trying to rescue Ben and leaving everyone behind to fend for themselves against this new dark lord shows a clear lack of balance in the argument.

And no, it's not logical to explain why a character is the exact opposite to what it used to be by showing that he acted completely opposite as he used to in a scene, that's just repeating the problem. There's no logic whatsoever that supports that Luke would get an extremely strong urge to murder his nephew in cold blood after being willing to lay down his life for the chance that one of the most evil men in the galaxy had some good in him. Even writing a broken Luke that wants to die works better if Luke first tried to do the right thing but failed, as something so simple avoids the logical mistakes. Rian's writing is honestly directly laughable in comparison. Not because it's not what I wanted but because it's so poorly constructed.

Sure, Luke failed at some level when he didn't see the threat that crept up on Ben, but while it should be personal, as you say, Rian's writing kind of makes it feel like it's not that personal as Luke instantly thought about murdering his nephew as soon as he saw some darkness in him. If he's that close to be able to murder him he can't be that attached to him, seeing how he didn't even raise his sabre to kill the defenseless Vader when he was influenced by the dark side. Rian made Luke seem like a psychopath in that moment, and still we're to believe that he was emotionally crushed by failing Ben.

But going back to the failing, the failure he had (ignoring his psycho urges) was really mild compared to what he didn't even try to do. It's his duty to stand up to users of the dark side and protect the galaxy, but he never so much as raised a finger to do anything to oppose Snoke. Luke didn't see the threat that crept up on Ben but when he did so he should have tried to help him, as one can forgive missing something but not willingly ignoring something. Yet he never tried to talk to Ben or to go after him to help him as Ben was the victim of Snoke. Those are the things that any Jedi, especially Luke, would be expected to do.

But we're stuck with the most hopeful character in the Star Wars saga just giving up on everyone without even trying to do anything. Making sure everything from the OT means as little as possible, just like this new trilogy seems designed to do.

Good to see someone argue for having Luke in in the movies, instead of seeing supposed fans be fine with Jake Skywalker. You hit the nail on the head on how poorly Rian wrote this thing from a pure technical perspective.

 

[Prison Mike]

Either way, J.J. messed up by not having Luke in TFA. Whether he he went away to “hide” on some remote island or to look for some ancient artifact, he still let Han die. I don’t blame Rian for writing Luke the way he did. He was kind of pushed into a corner. In fact, I think Luke would come off looking worse if he let Han die just so he can look for some artifact. That would be stupid and I guarantee people would complain about that saying Luke would never do that in the OT.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Either way, J.J. messed up by not having Luke in TFA. Whether he he went away to “hide” on some remote island or to look for some ancient artifact, he still let Han die. I don’t blame Rian for writing Luke the way he did. He was kind of pushed into a corner. In fact, I think Luke would come off looking worse if he let Han die just so he can look for some artifact. That would be stupid and I guarantee people would complain about that saying Luke would never do that in the OT.

That makes no sense to me at all. Luke not coming back can be explained by something so simple as that he is unable to come back. His ship could have been destroyed, or any of a ton of options. Or are you going to argue that Luke's character trait is that he can't be stuck somewhere?

Nothing can ever explain away that Rian Johnson wrote that Luke could have faith in one of the most evil dudes the galaxy had ever seen, but his nephew potentially becoming evil without having actually done anything bad yet is beyond his capability to handle, so he's broken to his very core and gives up on life and lets the dark side win. It's the equivalent of a paralyzed man learning to walk against all odds, but later when he stubs his toe he gives up on walking. It's literally that unintelligent.

 

[The Guard]

People are trying to apply logic to Luke's decision to hide away...but it was an emotional decision, so the logic behind it matters less in context. Luke doesn't only hide away because of his one failure, that's only part of it; he seems to feel, based on what he's seen, that maybe no one should have the kind of power that the Jedi and Sith have. He seems to want the galaxy to be self sufficient, and not dependent on that type of power.

 

[moviedoors]

Good to see someone argue for having Luke in in the movies, instead of seeing supposed fans be fine with Jake Skywalker.

Ah, gatekeeping. That's a good look.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

People are trying to apply logic to Luke's decision to hide away...but it was an emotional decision, so the logic behind it matters less in context. Luke doesn't only hide away because of his one failure, that's only part of it; he seems to feel, based on what he's seen, that maybe no one should have the kind of power that the Jedi and Sith have. He seems to want the galaxy to be self sufficient, and not dependent on that type of power.

Of course we are trying to apply logic to it because both emotions and personal drives of course follow logical patterns. It would be absurd to suggest otherwise as that would mean that we couldn't predict how emotional reactions turn out. As for no one having that power, the absolutely dumbest way possible to go about removing that is to allow the evil people with power to have free reign while you're only trying to eliminate the good side. Previous Star Wars certainly has shown that one side all but vanishing doesn't make the other go away.

Rian's writing also made it extremely weird that the force ghosts weren't around to help Luke, as his apparent sudden cause of utter insanity sure made him in need of guidance. Yoda just suddenly pops up when it's far too late, which is so obviously because Luke's hardships before that weren't during the time where the movie takes place.

Both that, and Luke's writing, shows that this is a film that really has things happen just because the plot demands it, instead of the plot being written to follow the logical conclusions. The same reasons why things like Holdo acting like the most incompetent leader, or why the First Order suddenly is very careful not to risk lose a few fighters for the first time ever, or don't want to intercept the Resistance with some destroyers, because then the plot would fail as it's written backwards.

 

[writer0327]

You're just ignoring what I've written about Luke's character development in the OT. He clearly goes away from being the rash person he is in ESB and before, and while we don't have to expect him to have learned patience fully in RotJ it's what you expect to continue as he ascends to the rank of master.

TFA also shows that Leia gets no indication that Han will die until she actually feels his death, so it's a far, far smaller leap to say that Luke only has the same feeling compared to the utterly atrocious character writing Rian made. One is deciding something with the very diffuse and even inconsistent rules of the Force, one is directly failing at the most fundamental level of character writing. After Han died there's nothing Luke can do to change that. I already said that this isn't perfect, and that Luke should have shown up in TFA, but this inconsistency is minuscule to what Rian created. The very notion of saying that Luke not showing up for Han is equal to not even trying to rescue Ben and leaving everyone behind to fend for themselves against this new dark lord shows a clear lack of balance in the argument.

And no, it's not logical to explain why a character is the exact opposite to what it used to be by showing that he acted completely opposite as he used to in a scene, that's just repeating the problem. There's no logic whatsoever that supports that Luke would get an extremely strong urge to murder his nephew in cold blood after being willing to lay down his life for the chance that one of the most evil men in the galaxy had some good in him. Even writing a broken Luke that wants to die works better if Luke first tried to do the right thing but failed, as something so simple avoids the logical mistakes. Rian's writing is honestly directly laughable in comparison. Not because it's not what I wanted but because it's so poorly constructed.

Sure, Luke failed at some level when he didn't see the threat that crept up on Ben, but while it should be personal, as you say, Rian's writing kind of makes it feel like it's not that personal as Luke instantly thought about murdering his nephew as soon as he saw some darkness in him. If he's that close to be able to murder him he can't be that attached to him, seeing how he didn't even raise his sabre to kill the defenseless Vader when he was influenced by the dark side. Rian made Luke seem like a psychopath in that moment, and still we're to believe that he was emotionally crushed by failing Ben.

But going back to the failing, the failure he had (ignoring his psycho urges) was really mild compared to what he didn't even try to do. It's his duty to stand up to users of the dark side and protect the galaxy, but he never so much as raised a finger to do anything to oppose Snoke. Luke didn't see the threat that crept up on Ben but when he did so he should have tried to help him, as one can forgive missing something but not willingly ignoring something. Yet he never tried to talk to Ben or to go after him to help him as Ben was the victim of Snoke. Those are the things that any Jedi, especially Luke, would be expected to do.

But we're stuck with the most hopeful character in the Star Wars saga just giving up on everyone without even trying to do anything. Making sure everything from the OT means as little as possible, just like this new trilogy seems designed to do.

I don't project what I believe Luke *should* become as a character. That's putting writers in a box. I look to see if his new actions are consistent with the Luke from the past, and in this case, they are. Rian also clearly understood the original Luke archetype (King Arthur) and applied it to his character. He didn't only focus on the positive aspects of OT Luke's character; he circled around the negative aspects of OT Luke's character, those characteristics that left him on that island in TFA (emotional, rash, unfocused). Luke is ascending to the rank of a master, can an emotional failure along the way lead to a crisis of faith? Sure, same as King Arthur.

So I'm not ignoring your point, I'm just disagreeing with it. Luke is still a rash and emotional individual. He displays these characteristics in ROTJ, especially when it comes to dealing with his *family*. When Vader threatened his sister, Luke goes into an emotional rage. All that calm, focused Jedi training goes out the window and he nearly kills his father. When he acts rashly, turns Ben into Kylo Ren, losing his sister's son to the Dark Side and leading to the death of his students, he becomes despondent and undergoes a crisis of faith and believes the Jedi must end. This situation was his fault, he let everyone down, his own family, the galaxy at large. And when he reviews the history of the Jedi, he sees Jedi were responsible for the creation of Darth Vader, full of pride and hubris, allowed Sidious to rise and destroy the peace of the galaxy. Rey points out that Luke was acting in error and emotionally and thought that Ben's final choice was made. Yoda said the same. It fits with Luke's negative characteristics which we saw in the previous films. This is who the character is. And this Luke undergoes a crisis of faith, completely making sense when you consider who he is (rash) and who was involved (family).

I'm not sure what your point about Leia only sensing Han's death just as he died, but this wouldn't apply to Luke. Luke knew his friends were in trouble in ESB before the Falcon ever landed on Bespin. It's not so much about sensing death, but friends in danger that set off visions in Luke's head and called him into action. So when JJ decided not to have Luke respond to that danger, it meant that something was seriously wrong with Luke, something that would require a great deal of explanation and nothing as simple as "it won't help enough" will do.

This "extremely strong urge to murder his nephew" was described by Luke as "a briefest moment of pure instinct...that passed like a fleeting shadow." Here one second, gone the next. Luke immediately changed his mind, within a second.

Should Luke have gone after Kylo and tried to bring him back? Sure why not? Rian could have easily written a line of dialog that says "And I tried to go after him, I reached out to him, in person and through the Force, but he was already gone." Would that have satisfied the people who didn't like TLJ Luke? Highly doubtful because they would not accept a crisis of faith Luke by any measure. They wanted optimistic, hopeful Luke.

 

[writer0327]

People are trying to apply logic to Luke's decision to hide away...but it was an emotional decision, so the logic behind it matters less in context. Luke doesn't only hide away because of his one failure, that's only part of it; he seems to feel, based on what he's seen, that maybe no one should have the kind of power that the Jedi and Sith have. He seems to want the galaxy to be self sufficient, and not dependent on that type of power.

I think there is some logic behind the emotional decision. You are correct, he wants to ensure he is no longer a part of the Jedi because he sees them as a detriment to the galaxy, that they are doing more harm than good. They are in part responsible for the creation of the Sith, that their power leads to hypocrisy, hubris, and failure. When he's talking to Rey, he gives logical reasons to explain why he did what he felt he had to do. It wasn't a pure emotional move.