Marvel over-load of negativity

[fifthfiend]

wells my thoughts on the subject( as if anybody cared) are that i grew up reading when ,except when for Wolverine was introduced Heroes didnt kill.Punisher was pretty much just a bad guy. i know marvel's characters have always threaded on the fine line. which is what made them such great characters, but They never crossed that line.I dont particular dig this new set. War machince blasting alway criminals.Hawkeye Swearing to kill skrulls. Black Widow blasting away skrulls. i was especially disappointed when 3D man blew away crusader after he had denounced the skrullls and turn away to save the earth, that wasnt necessary. i know comics reflect the times in society,and this might've been good for a bush/cheney era, but i personally like to tell my Heroes without a score card. theres a reason why Superman's book" whats wrong with truth and justice says alot about Heroes who kill.... ok so now i will be on my way and take my soapbox with me.

I always got irritated by the ******ed absolutism of it, like where every six or ten months whichever villain would have twenty buses full of pregnant mothers strapped to torture machines that would torture them to death at the push of a button and the hero's only way to do it would be to kill the villain but he COULDN'T because that would make the hero JUST AS BAD AS THE VILLAIN and then a rock would fall on the villain's head. Or heroes merrily launching all manner of ordinance at say, an aircraft, confident that the scumbag inside would invariably pop out and parachute safely to the ground. But it'd be nice to still have a world of heroes which did continually make more than a token effort to not murder human beings.

 

[Fly Guy]

I always got irritated by the ******ed absolutism of it, like where every six or ten months whichever villain would have twenty buses full of pregnant mothers strapped to torture machines that would torture them to death at the push of a button and the hero's only way to do it would be to kill the villain but he COULDN'T because that would make the hero JUST AS BAD AS THE VILLAIN and then a rock would fall on the villain's head. Or heroes merrily launching all manner of ordinance at say, an aircraft, confident that the scumbag inside would invariably pop out and parachute safely to the ground. But it'd be nice to still have a world of heroes which did continually make more than a token effort to not murder human beings.

Your last sentence sums it up for me.

 

[[A]]

Cops kill in the real world.. and superheroes cannot kill in a fantasy world..? I say, start shooting everybody

 

[imdaly]

Will Marvel Comics ever get back to normal again? Am I the only one tired of the constant chaos? Of not knowing the good guys from the bad guys? When identities were secret? When story lines lasted two to three books and didn't over lap into every book that wasn't an Archie Comic?.

There have been some good stories out of this. But I am now tapped out on all of this. And it seems endless.... Civil War went straight to Dark Reign....and it's anyone's guess how long they will drag this out. Oh and don't forget "War of the Kings" with the Inhumans.... Geez!

I've stopped reading many of these Marvel books. Nova seems to be the only book not tainted......that still has that old school feel.


Anybody else feelin' me??

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I always got irritated by the ******ed absolutism of it, like where every six or ten months whichever villain would have twenty buses full of pregnant mothers strapped to torture machines that would torture them to death at the push of a button and the hero's only way to do it would be to kill the villain but he COULDN'T because that would make the hero JUST AS BAD AS THE VILLAIN and then a rock would fall on the villain's head. Or heroes merrily launching all manner of ordinance at say, an aircraft, confident that the scumbag inside would invariably pop out and parachute safely to the ground. But it'd be nice to still have a world of heroes which did continually make more than a token effort to not murder human beings.

I agree, there should be degrees. I don't have a problem with, say, War Machine--a Marine by trade--killing, but the bloodthirstiness he displays in his current series is way beyond anything you could call heroic. The Punisher is not just "a guy who kills," he's a guy who operates on a whole other level where murder is his only recourse in nearly every situation. Your typical hero should not be on that level. If they absolutely have to kill, well, that's a decision they have to make on a case-by-case basis. But it shouldn't be their one and only option going into every fight.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

Cops kill in the real world.. and superheroes cannot kill in a fantasy world..? I say, start shooting everybody

.... but then we'd only have 32 pages of people laying on the ground, dead and no words to read each month.

 

[Aristotle]

So you want Black Reign to be the norm? That's why I'm talking about all the negative stories coming outta Marvel..... I'm tired of bad guys winning and good guys not knowing what to do.

Dude, when was Marvel ever anything but bad guys winning, good guys not knowing what to do, nobody trusting anybody, citizens hating heroes, and amoral anti-heroes being celebrated as paragons? You don't want that stuff, go read something else. Like Invincible. Or anything Grant Morrison has ever written (even New X-Men.) Or DC. But don't expect anything but amoralism and evil and anti-heroism from Marvel. It's what they do. It was their central gimmick (albeit a little more disguised and dressed up) when they introduced Spider-Man, and it's never really changed. It's what they do.

 

[Aristotle]

But it'd be nice to still have a world of heroes which did continually make more than a token effort to not murder human beings.

You quit reading it because it made one bad series.

 

[Aristotle]

Yeah....I guess kids can't relate to a hero and clearly defined villain anymore?

I shudder to think what this says about us as a culture. I'm glad you can actually say these things and not have the zombie mob tell you that you should be murdered with a blunt instrument. For some reason, suggesting that heroic heroes would be nice is like skull****ing the corpse of Jesus, to the Xofenrohts* of the world.

*Don't ask him why his moral system is so bleak and gray. All he'll tell you is vague hints about "if you knew what his work is," like he's ****in' Wolverine or something.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Dude, when was Marvel ever anything but bad guys winning, good guys not knowing what to do, nobody trusting anybody, citizens hating heroes, and amoral anti-heroes being celebrated as paragons? You don't want that stuff, go read something else. Like Invincible. Or anything Grant Morrison has ever written (even New X-Men.) Or DC. But don't expect anything but amoralism and evil and anti-heroism from Marvel. It's what they do. It was their central gimmick (albeit a little more disguised and dressed up) when they introduced Spider-Man, and it's never really changed. It's what they do.

That's a pretty broad generalization. There have been elements of it throughout Marvel's history, but it hasn't been so all-encompassing as it's become in the last few years, and there were pretty clear-cut, bright and shiny heroes in the Marvel universe before. At least to the extent that not all the heroes were killing machines or so morally ambiguous that you could confuse them with their villains.

 

[Aristotle]

That's a pretty broad generalization. There have been elements of it throughout Marvel's history, but it hasn't been so all-encompassing as it's become in the last few years, and there were pretty clear-cut, bright and shiny heroes in the Marvel universe before. At least to the extent that not all the heroes were killing machines or so morally ambiguous that you could confuse them with their villains.

There have been ups and downs, but it's the defining characteristic of the Marvel Universe. Marvel doesn't have superheroes, it has superhero?es.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Personally, at their best, I never thought there was anything defining Marvel or DC as any one thing more than another in relation to each other. Marvel can have unquestionably moral heroes and DC can have ones with serious character flaws and loose morals.

 

[Aristotle]

Personally, at their best, I never thought there was anything defining Marvel or DC as any one thing more than another in relation to each other. Marvel can have unquestionably moral heroes and DC can have ones with serious character flaws and loose morals.

But those never really last, and they're often not very good. Captain America is really the only example of a bright and shiny Marvel hero that had any staying power, and Hitman is the only example of a grim'n'gritty DC character that worked. And I know that's a broad generalization, as is my larger point, but it's generally true.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Right, but Superman's practically the only bright and shiny character even at DC who's bright and shiny to that extent. Most of the characters from both companies fall somewhere in the middle. Green Arrow could very easily be a Marvel character and, from what you said, probably should be. He's a womanizer who kills people when the mood strikes him. I just think there's more of a spectrum than you're indicating and, while Marvel's been veering more toward the dark end of that spectrum lately, both companies tend to hover around the center in their best periods. Why? Because the best kind of superhero universe--or any fictional universe--is one with enough variety to portray all kinds of different perspectives. That's why it bugs me when Marvel heroes who previously were against killing suddenly become killing machines or why heroes fighting heroes gets tedious. Too much of anything gets old after a while.

I think I kind of strayed from my point there...

 

[Fly Guy]

But those never really last, and they're often not very good. Captain America is really the only example of a bright and shiny Marvel hero that had any staying power, and Hitman is the only example of a grim'n'gritty DC character that worked. And I know that's a broad generalization, as is my larger point, but it's generally true.

And you see what they've done to Cap. They kill him and turn him into Bucky. So now Cap kills because he's the Winter Soldier. And he uses a gun.

 

[Aristotle]

Green Arrow could very easily be a Marvel character and, from what you said, probably should be. He's a womanizer who kills people when the mood strikes him.

Back in the Silver day, a lot of characters were womanizers. I'm referring more to their behavior in costume as superheroes, and yes, GA kills occasionally, but it's very occasional, and I think it serves more as a narrative tool and a commentary than as an easy out and an "anti-hero!!!!!" moment. He does do quite a bit to not kill.

Man, am I pissed about 3D-Man putting a bullet in Crusader's head.

 

[Aristotle]

And you see what they've done to Cap. They kill him and turn him into Bucky. So now Cap kills because he's the Winter Soldier. And he uses a gun.

A point that's not lost on me. Not a coincidence at all.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

And you see what they've done to Cap. They kill him and turn him into Bucky. So now Cap kills because he's the Winter Soldier. And he uses a gun.

That's also an oversimplification, as far as I'm concerned. Bucky's turn as Captain America is not some blatant ploy to make Cap darker; it's a redemption story. Bucky started off in a dark place, but his whole character arc is, in part, about the power of this awesome legacy to actively effect change in a man. In trying to be a Cap Steve would be proud of, Bucky's bettering himself as a human being. That's a powerful commentary on the very idea of true heroism.

Also, check your issues again. Since Bucky became Cap, he's shot a couple AIM agents, but he hasn't killed anyone as far as I recall.

Back in the Silver day, a lot of characters were womanizers. I'm referring more to their behavior in costume as superheroes, and yes, GA kills occasionally, but it's very occasional, and I think it serves more as a narrative tool and a commentary than as an easy out and an "anti-hero!!!!!" moment. He does do quite a bit to not kill.

Man, am I pissed about 3D-Man putting a bullet in Crusader's head.

Well, no argument from me on that point. Triathlon was a stand-up guy in Avengers, if I recall correctly.

 

[Fly Guy]

Right, but Superman's practically the only bright and shiny character even at DC who's bright and shiny to that extent. Most of the characters from both companies fall somewhere in the middle. Green Arrow could very easily be a Marvel character and, from what you said, probably should be. He's a womanizer who kills people when the mood strikes him. I just think there's more of a spectrum than you're indicating and, while Marvel's been veering more toward the dark end of that spectrum lately, both companies tend to hover around the center in their best periods. Why? Because the best kind of superhero universe--or any fictional universe--is one with enough variety to portray all kinds of different perspectives. That's why it bugs me when Marvel heroes who previously were against killing suddenly become killing machines or why heroes fighting heroes gets tedious. Too much of anything gets old after a while.





I think I kind of strayed from my point there...

And everybody cusses....@$&*!!....
Everybody's Wolverine now....

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's irritating, but I can give it more leeway. I myself curse like a sailor.

 

[Aristotle]

And everybody cusses....@$&*!!....
Everybody's Wolverine now....

Well, that's realism I can get behind. Because what the ****'s wrong with swearing? They're just words. I long for the day when kids can say f*** and not get in trouble for it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Sometimes it's a bit much. Like when Rhodey was all, "I'm gonna kill the **** out of these mother****ers!" in War Machine. Yeah, I've used that example a lot, but come on... "kill the **** out of these mother****ers"? That's when cursing stops being hardcore and just becomes silly.

 

[kguillou]

Jesus, Rhodey said that?? WTF happened to Rhodey?? He was never like that. THAT is a prime example of the problem i have with marvel these days. Some characters just completely and radically change out of the blue with no explanation as to how they got there. How come Hulk is dumb all of a sudden and banner has no reaction to WWH? How come Bishop is all of a sudden a homicidal maniac and going against the X-men? How come Magneto is back to his supervillain status again? There are others that i cant think of but marvel is becoming obsessed with these brand new out of the blue status quo's that some of them just dont make sense and trump years of character progress.

 

[Docker2.0]

I have complained about this for a minute. I've cut down on my spending to Marvel big time for this reason. Its to dark and negative right now, the disrespect to the fans, and the freakin dollar increase just turned me off. There are some books that I will buy, anything by Slotts. Abnett, Herc, Fantastic Four, and Moon Knight. But every character seems to be a grey area and its a huge turn off. I've started to read some DC but that f-ing Final Crisis is just to many books to buy and confusing as hell to new DC readers so I'm just getting into the back issues now.

 

[Red Mask]

I agree, there should be degrees. I don't have a problem with, say, War Machine--a Marine by trade--killing, but the bloodthirstiness he displays in his current series is way beyond anything you could call heroic.

If Rhodey keeps adding weapons to his body he'll look like that guy in Tetsuo 2: Body Hammer.