Born Again Marvel Studios’ Daredevil: Born Again General Discussion Thread

[Lily Adler]

Jon Bernthal as Wolverine would have been interesting, but Punisher it is.

 

[squeekness]

Jon Bernthal as Wolverine would have been interesting, but Punisher it is.

I like Berenthal but i dont know if he would have made acgood Wolverine. He doesnt have the same depth that Jackman gave to the character, he makes a better bad guy lke Punisher.

 

[TheVileOne]

Good point.

It would be a crime if they didn't pick up those threads for the new series. It really informed the Netflix series. Even Charlie Cox has made those statements.

"The Catholicism … helps the story. If you want to play a complex, turmoiled character, then give him a dose of Catholicism."

He's even made the point its made him think deeper about his own Catholic faith.

IMHO catholicism is an integral part of Daredevil as a character and it always has been. Maybe you can't downplay it but you should never remove it entirely.

 

[TheVileOne]

I like Berenthal but i dont know if he would have made acgood Wolverine. He doesnt have the same depth that Jackman gave to the character, he makes a better bad guy lke Punisher.

I truly think he's better suited for Frank Castle. I just wish he had better scripts and a better show around him.

Frankly, I don't even know how you approach a Punisher show in 2024/2025. It seems impossible.

 

[Breogan]

I hope they keep the strong Catholic backbone in this series. I assume they will. Those scenes in the first run were the most impactful.

To Believe or Not To Believe? ]

Great story about Daredevil and Catholicism:
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/...ands_that_catholicism_is_the_superhero_s.html

Interesting article, thanks for the link.
Miller & Mazzucchelli's DareDevil "Born Again" really did make great use of it. Visually(symbolically) and thematically for character, and as an overall narrative tool.

As a Catholic I'd happily take Daredevil as the poster boy of my religion.

It definitely forms part of the story arc and theme it takes it's name from "Born Again"
Though much of that was covered the first seasons, it doesn't need to be continually referenced, yet it should certainly feel like the same character, and agreed it should form part of the "backbone" of his pathos.

It would be a crime if they didn't pick up those threads for the new series. It really informed the Netflix series. Even Charlie Cox has made those statements.

"The Catholicism … helps the story. If you want to play a complex, turmoiled character, then give him a dose of Catholicism."

He's even made the point its made him think deeper about his own Catholic faith.

Yes the character from his imagery and symbolism, to his motivation and drive, is full of turmoil and contradictions, entangled with his own vision and struggle with his faith.

IMHO catholicism is an integral part of Daredevil as a character and it always has been. Maybe you can['t] downplay it but you should never remove it entirely.

Agree.

 

[lenz]

Fantastic video, surprised I hadn't seen that.

It makes me realize just how much I will miss Father Lantom as a character.

 

[lenz]

It definitely forms part of the story arc and theme it takes it's name from "Born Again"
Though much of that was covered the first seasons, it doesn't need to be continually referenced, yet it should certainly feel like the same character, and agreed it should form part of the "backbone" of his pathos.

Yes the character from his imagery and symbolism, to his motivation and drive, is full of turmoil and contradictions, entangled with his own vision and struggle with his faith.


Agree.

Agreed.

The struggle isn't just with criminals or institutions, or good vs evil. It's the internal struggle with his own faith, and the spiritual growth that comes from that. The symbolism, through faith and contradiction, is ultimately transcendent. To remove that completely is like amputating the soul of the character.

 

[blueharvest]

 

[TheVileOne]

Man the struggle to get to Born Again has been long and hard, but it feels like we are finally turning the corner.

 

[psylockolussus]

I wish they just made it a movie. I would definitely pick a Daredevil movie over Brave New World, Thunderbolts* and Armor Wars.

I'm not a fan of Mcu's series. At least with a mid-mcu movie, I could finish it in 1 sitting. But with the Mcu's shows, I don't feel as invested compare to a feature film, and I just have no desire to rewatch the shows. I have seen The Marvels trice now and Deadpool & Wolverine twice now.

Its also a bit weird that we are getting the 2nd Fantastic 4 reboot in the movies which is understandable. But once again, Disney/Marvel Studios still have Daredevil as a streaming series... this series better be good. But I could only imagine how bad the original material was, that they retooled the entire series, if I'm remembering correctly the bts mess.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Daredevil makes sense for a series cause they're still pushing these somewhat, and Daredevil is a cheaper character to do than a lot of others would be. So he can be an anchor for a successful D+ set of shows. I would take a movie as well if one was made, but this route makes sense

 

[DyeLorean]

They better include him in those Avengers movies. The character/the actor deserves it at this point.

 

[blueharvest]

 

[Breogan]

He already made the character his own, but nice to know these two somewhat connected, on bringing the character to life.
Or at least on how to convincingly shoot at $%!# !

 

[NewYorkSpider]

They better include him in those Avengers movies. The character/the actor deserves it at this point.

Agreed. It's hard to believe that he's been cast as Daredevil for over 10 years now.

 

[psylockolussus]

I enjoyed the 2004 Punisher movie, so thats nice.

I would like Thomas Jane to appear in Secret Wars as The Punisher even if for a minute.

 

[Breogan]

Agreed.

The struggle isn't just with criminals or institutions, or good vs evil. It's the internal struggle with his own faith, and the spiritual growth that comes from that. The symbolism, through faith and contradiction, is ultimately transcendent. To remove that completely is like amputating the soul of the character.

Interestingly in the comics Punisher (lapsed?) struggles with a similar contradictions,

One Irish Catholic the other Italian? (born Castiglione)?
Not sure they reference that in the series, yet clearly two characters whose missions, tend to contradict elements of their faith, or rather their lives have put them in situations that constantly challenge it, or push them to the other extreme.

Think these type of characters themes might go back to the Pulps, R.E. Howard's (Puritan) Solomon Kane.
Looking back, allot of these popular 'faith' character types and tropes, seem to invoke (maybe not so ironically) a dual natured aspect; lapsed/struggling faith on one side (or inside), yet the other side manifests as or embodies contrarian imagery symbolic of it's loss: Skull, Death, Demon/Devil, tormented, vengeance, and dark themes on the outside. (hence the dark costumes, themes, masks).

Zorro
Solomon Kane
Dare Devil
Huntress (DC)
Punisher
Spawn
Azrael (I believe a faith inspired version of Batman)

As if they know or fear they are themselves already condemned, hence willing to sacrifice their own self/soul, to vanquish evil? Yet they approach becoming that.
Or they straight see themselves as, or used as a dark avenging vessels, towards that end?

Apologies if it's to much of a thread derail, willing to move it into another more appropriate if it exists.

 

[lenz]

Interestingly in the comics Punisher (lapsed?) struggles with a similar contradictions,

One Irish Catholic the other Italian? (born Castiglione)?
Not sure they reference that in the series, yet clearly two characters whose missions, tend to contradict elements of their faith, or rather their lives have put them in situations that constantly challenge it, or push them to the other extreme.

Think these type of characters themes might go back to the Pulps, R.E. Howard's Solomon Kane.
Looking back, allot of these popular 'faith' character types and tropes, seem to invoke (maybe not so ironically) that dual or double natured aspects; lapsed/struggling faith on one side (or inside), yet the other manifests imagery symbolic of their fall or contrarian: Skull, Death, Demon/Devil, tormented, vengeance, and dark themes on the outside.

Zorro
Solomon Kane
Dare Devil
Huntress (DC)
Punisher
Spawn
Azrael (I believe a faith inspired version of Batman)

****As if they know or fear they are themselves already condemned, hence willing to sacrifice their own self/soul, to vanquish evil? Yet they approach becoming that.****
Or they straight see themselves as, or used as a dark avenging vessels, towards that end.

Apologies if it's to much of a thread derail, willing to move it into another more appropriate if it exists.

Some great examples there. We are in total agreement for how we see it. Up to this point, I have generally throught of it, from a literary perspective, through a Shakespearian lens, in this case Hamlet, "To be or not to be" The idea of free will vs inevitability (predestination).

The rooftop scene in Season 2, Frank is presented as the extreme counterpoint to Daredevil. Matt's faith is presented as the reason he has not been reduced to the Punisher's completely hopeless and fallen state, or having that "one bad day away from being me" idea. Faith, struggle, redemption, rebirth. I don't recall a single scene, a reference, or a symbol, that hints at Frank's Catholic faith.. They probably didn't want to go too far down that path for various reasons, because it would, rightly, require more development and exploration. Frank is only in a supporting role here, so as long as the difference in ideology is established, they likely figured the job is done. The Skull on his chest is ultimately the distillation of those deeper ideas.

That being said, I don't remember Frank's series touching on his faith at all either...correct me if I am wrong, but it's basically the secular pov. I was not a big fan of the series, so I only watched it once.

 

[OrbOfConfusion]

I enjoyed the 2004 Punisher movie, so thats nice.

I would like Thomas Jane to appear in Secret Wars as The Punisher even if for a minute.

The short film Punisher Dirty Laundry was pretty great, too. More so with Ron Perlman's appearance in there, too.

 

[psylockolussus]

The short film Punisher Dirty Laundry was pretty great, too. More so with Ron Perlman's appearance in there, too.

I haven't seen that short film. As of right now, only few pre-MCU (1998-2007) Marvel films haven't been connected to the MCU, by bringing back a cast member to appear in the MCU.

Netflix Punisher hanging out with 2004 Punisher, gives me some hope that they would invite the remaining ones.

 

[blueharvest]

 

[Matt.S99]

Everyone has covered this already, but I also want to add my two cents and say downplaying Matt’s catholic beliefs and struggles with his faith would be an absolute travesty. It’s an integral part of his character, and a reason why, in my opinion, he feels more “real” compared to a lot of characters in the Marvel universe.

 

[TheVileOne]

Everyone has covered this already, but I also want to add my two cents and say downplaying Matt’s catholic beliefs and struggles with his faith would be an absolute travesty. It’s an integral part of his character, and a reason why, in my opinion, he feels more “real” compared to a lot of characters in the Marvel universe.

I agree. It gave Matt some flavor that he wouldn't have had otherwise.

Similarly, it annoyed me how Moon Knight downplayed Marc Spector's Judaism.

 

[Dark Raven]

Who did the score and the theme for the first DD series? Does that mean we won't get the same theme tune?

 

[OrbOfConfusion]

Who did the score and the theme for the first DD series? Does that mean we won't get the same theme tune?

John Paesano scored Daredevil, as well as Defenders.