Mass Effect 2

[El Bastardo]

Have you actually played Mask Of The Betrayer?

Yes. Unlike some people who may frequent this thread or, say, other threads about sequels, I don't make definitive statements based on conjecture.

It's a continued narrative of NWN2, and it shows plainly as a continued quality of mediocre-at-best. There's nothing witty. There's nothing subtle. It's as heavy-handed as the core game was, and it's not even an attractive kind of heavy-handed. I give them credit for actually managing to include some of the flavor of the campaign setting this time around, as little as there was, but a sequel is hardly the place for beginning stages of promise.

It's another example of poor Obsidian storytelling.

Part of the problem with Bethesda is in there story telling. They managed to make Liam Neeson about as riveting as a bar of soap. Planescape Torment (Black Isle before they became Obsidian) still has some of the best writing in a game to date imo. But that was a different time, when RPG's story's were more about reading than being a interactive movie.

Bethesda are poor storytellers, period. But just because Obsidian-as-Black-Isle-not-all-of-whom-are-still-present-in-Obsidian showed previous success does not mean they can continue said success. I point you to the myriad of one-hit-wonders. I point you to George Lucas. Obsidian is very much the George Lucas of the video game industry - campaigning on a classic in the minds of veteran gamers to continue putting out poor crap.

Let's consider the genius titles Chris Avellone (lead designer of Planescape: Torment) has developed since then, shall we? Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance. Champions of Norrath! Some failed Fallout work. KotOR2 and NWN2, hand-me-downs they couldn't even make work with the gameplan already written. Alpha Protocol! Veritable behemoths of a literary degree, these.

Please. I'm sorry. I prefer talent and capability to generic crap.

 

[El Bastardo]

KOTOR II was pretty sharp, even in the face of all the content cuts.

You really think so?

A poor, all-over-the-place plot with a poor ending with an almost washed-over climbing action, messed-up character development. And that's only for a couple characters - Atton and Handmaiden were it, I think. Maybe Disciple. I don't remember him, because I don't think I ever bothered to replay the game with a female character. All the other characters were generic and glossed-over, at best. Visas? What'd she have, three dialogue options? Not to mention they couldn't even properly implement features they said would be present, which, while not weighing in on quality of narrative, is nonetheless commenting on quality of game.

I don't care if content got cut because of time or what. The same thing happened with Alpha Protocol. It doesn't change the fact that a company released a shoddy game.

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

It's a continued narrative of NWN2, and it shows plainly as a continued quality of mediocre-at-best. There's nothing witty. There's nothing subtle. It's as heavy-handed as the core game was, and it's not even an attractive kind of heavy-handed. I give them credit for actually managing to include some of the flavor of the campaign setting this time around, as little as there was, but a sequel is hardly the place for beginning stages of promise.

I also like wikipedia.

 

[El Bastardo]

olol and lulz?

 

[Matt]

You really think so?

A poor, all-over-the-place plot with a poor ending with an almost washed-over climbing action, messed-up character development. And that's only for a couple characters - Atton and Handmaiden were it, I think. Maybe Disciple. I don't remember him, because I don't think I ever bothered to replay the game with a female character. All the other characters were generic and glossed-over, at best. Visas? What'd she have, three dialogue options? Not to mention they couldn't even properly implement features they said would be present, which, while not weighing in on quality of narrative, is nonetheless commenting on quality of game.

I don't care if content got cut because of time or what. The same thing happened with Alpha Protocol. It doesn't change the fact that a company released a shoddy game.

I think the reason is, Obsidian is not its own publisher. Studios like Bethesda are. Obsidian has to operate within the demands of companies like Sega, Atari, LucasArts, etc. That often puts constraints on them. Particularly in the field of time. Publishers do not care about making the best game. They care about making the most profitable. So when LucasArts says, "The most profitable time to release KOTOR II is Christmas," Obsidian has no choice but to oblidge them. Thus the game gets rushed, thus the project as a whole is hurt.

 

[Saint]

messed-up character development.

You're going to have to qualify "messed up character development" for me.

Visas? What'd she have, three dialogue options?

If that's how far you took it, sure. That was the nature of the influence system (which, incidentally, was also one of the only decent parts of Alpha Protocol). It was possible to never realize how far you could take relationships with certain characters. I missed a lot my first time through.

It's true that some of the party members were pretty dry (I'm looking at Mira). It's possible that my appreciation of Kreia (who carried the game on her shoulders) is colouring my memories of the writing.

I don't care if content got cut because of time or what. The same thing happened with Alpha Protocol. It doesn't change the fact that a company released a shoddy game.

Noted, but I find it difficult to blame Obsidian for, as an example, an "all over the place story" and incomplete characters when entire sections of the game were cut because LucasArts wanted to game released within a certain timeframe. It's possible that Obsidian was to blame for dragging their feet, but I don't have enough information to make such judgements.

 

[El Bastardo]

I think the reason is, Obsidian is not its own publisher. Studios like Bethesda are. Obsidian has to operate within the demands of companies like Sega, Atari, LucasArts, etc. That often puts constraints on them. Particularly in the field of time. Publishers do not care about making the best game. They care about making the most profitable. So when LucasArts says, "The most profitable time to release KOTOR II is Christmas," Obsidian has no choice but to oblidge them. Thus the game gets rushed, thus the project as a whole is hurt.

I understand that. But BioWare made NWN and KotOR, under the same publishers, and their games do not have the same faults and problems that Obsidian's sequels do.

It's a level of quality that is not matched. That fact never changes, regardless of why.

 

[Matt]

I understand that. But BioWare made NWN and KotOR, under the same publishers, and their games do not have the same faults and problems that Obsidian's sequels do.

It's a level of quality that is not matched. That fact never changes, regardless of why.

Publishers are willing to give studios more time with original games than they are with sequels as sequels have higher demand and can usually be successful regardless of quality.

 

[El Bastardo]

You're going to have to qualify "messed up character development" for me.

Read: dropping-off-and-vanishing or non-existent to begin with.[/quote]

If that's how far you took it, sure. That was the nature of the influence system (which, incidentally, was also one of the only decent parts of Alpha Protocol). It was possible to never realize how far you could take relationships with certain characters. I missed a lot my first time through.

The influence system that wasn't implemented properly? Oh, how I loved my evil Sith Apprentice Handmaiden lecturing me as I killed innocent people! There she is, full Dark Side, telling me how to be a good little Light Sided peon. That whole influencing thing sure worked out.

Visas had no character development. There was, oh hi, I'm here. Darth Nihlus sent me. I'm his apprentice. But I want him dead. He's EVIL. And he killed my people. And he took me as his love slave. And I hate him. So let's kill him, 'kay? Oh thanks! Now he's dead. I'll be quiet now.

It's true that some of the party members were pretty dry (I'm looking at Mira). It's possible that my appreciation of Kreia (who carried the game on her shoulders) is colouring my memories of the writing.

Yes, there's Kreia. She's part of the whole "drop off" of character development. It's there, it's going nice and organic, then switches to rush mode, drops off, and their ham-fisted ending attempts to make sense of it all. Her history, her development as a person and character, her relationship to the PC and the Force itself, her hatred of everything else - yes, we can understand it because we're eventually told in as many words, but it's never fleshed out. There's no organic development to it.

Noted, but I find it difficult to blame Obsidian for, as an example, an "all over the place story" when entire sections of the story were cut because LucasArts wanted to game released within a certain timeframe. It's possible that Obsidian was to blame for dragging their feet, but I don't have enough information to make such judgements.

They should have decided on a way to make it fit within that timeframe. Better yet, they should have been making good-enough progress to not find themselves in that situation. Again. Over and over again. With all their games. There's a pattern there, and it's blatant.

But it's no different as placing blame on delays. Do I appreciate the art of comics artists who take way too long to produce their art? Sure. I appreciate it. I like it. Does that mean they belong in an industry where they're placed on a monthly book? No, it doesn't. And they don't.

Will I appreciate the next installment of George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series? You can bet your balls I will. Does that mean it's acceptable he's taken, like, five years to write it? No. It removes a certain level of professionalism from it.

At least delays don't typically harm the quality of the work. But if the artists or the writer were rushed and the quality of their work suffered for it? It's their own faults, and they don't deserve benefit of the doubt for lacking the professionality to complete a better product.

Nor do publishers deserve understanding for rushing work that leads to a harmed product, and why track records over time turn into internet hate such as "EA SUX LULZ."

But I digress.

I enjoy quality. Obsidian does not exhibit quality. So I do not enjoy their games.

 

[El Bastardo]

Publishers are willing to give studios more time with original games than they are with sequels as sequels have higher demand.

Yes, and? BioWare likely did have more of a lead-in time than did Obsidian. It doesn't matter.

Publishers don't throw an idea at a studio and say, "Hey, here, do it! You have all the time in the world!" and then come in two days later and go, "Hey, gimme it! Gimme all you got!"

There would be conceptual time. There would be development time. There would be production time. And from the inception of the project, I imagine there would be a definitive time-table for when the project is to be completed.

Cut content is a reality every game studio has to face, rushed or not. If Obsidian petitioned for more time and were told no, tough cookies. If their time-table was pushed back by the publisher, then that's regrettable and shows poor professionality on the publisher's part, but professionalism would then dictate Obsidian to do as good a job as they could with their remaining time on the project.

And if what we have is the best they could do, then it doesn't say much for their quality.

Quality is quality is quality. What they put out is all that can be judged. What they put out isn't that good, and has plenty of holes and flaws.

 

[Saint]

Read: dropping-off-and-vanishing or non-existent to begin with.

Well, we've already covered my position on cut content.

The influence system that wasn't implemented properly? Oh, how I loved my evil Sith Apprentice Handmaiden lecturing me as I killed innocent people! There she is, full Dark Side, telling me how to be a good little Light Sided peon. That whole influencing thing sure worked out.

I was referring the system as a vehicle for unlocking further character interaction, but that's a fair point. Still, that one has fallen to the dark side doesn't necessarily involve a reversal of that person's values (usually a radicalization of those same values), so I don't necessarily consider a dark side character speaking against cruelty to be an error in the system. That said, that it was a mistake or an oversight does seem more likely.

Yes, there's Kreia. She's part of the whole "drop off" of character development. It's there, it's going nice and organic, then switches to rush mode, drops off, and their ham-fisted ending attempts to make sense of it all. Her history, her development as a person and character, her relationship to the PC and the Force itself, her hatred of everything else - yes, we can understand it because we're eventually told in as many words, but it's never fleshed out. There's no organic development to it.

Obviously, I agree--but again, we've already talked about cut content, the sudden "And then it was over!" ending being the most obvious example of that.

They should have decided on a way to make it fit within that timeframe.

Maybe--or maybe they should have been given a more realistic timeframe by LucasArts. As I said before, I don't have enough information to say either way.

But it's no different as placing blame on delays. Do I appreciate the art of comics artists who take way too long to produce their art? Sure. I appreciate it. I like it. Does that mean they belong in an industry where they're placed on a monthly book? No, it doesn't. And they don't.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Comics are serialized, and that's why lateness is a problem. KOTOR was a standalone product and there was no particular need to have the sequel out within a certain timeframe--unless your concern is purely financial.

 

[Matt]

Yes, and? BioWare likely did have more of a lead-in time than did Obsidian. It doesn't matter.

Publishers don't throw an idea at a studio and say, "Hey, here, do it! You have all the time in the world!" and then come in two days later and go, "Hey, gimme it! Gimme all you got!"

There would be conceptual time. There would be development time. There would be production time. And from the inception of the project, I imagine there would be a definitive time-table for when the project is to be completed.

Cut content is a reality every game studio has to face, rushed or not. If Obsidian petitioned for more time and were told no, tough cookies. If their time-table was pushed back by the publisher, then that's regrettable and shows poor professionality on the publisher's part, but professionalism would then dictate Obsidian to do as good a job as they could with their remaining time on the project.

And if what we have is the best they could do, then it doesn't say much for their quality.

Quality is quality is quality. What they put out is all that can be judged. What they put out isn't that good, and has plenty of holes and flaws.

Well, I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I enjoyed KOTOR2, NWN2, and Alpha Protocol quite a bit. And being as all of their flaws seem to be the result of publisher rushing, I don't hold it against Obsidian as the way I see it is, they made the best game they could in the limited time and all were impressive in their own rights despite the contraints.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It sounds like Obsidian just need to manage their ambitions a bit better. If they constantly have a problem with time constraints, it probably means they're constantly shooting too high. That's what the whole process of balancing amount of content vs. quality of content is all about. Do what you can really well rather than attempting and failing at a lot of other stuff.

 

[El Bastardo]

It sounds like Obsidian just need to manage their ambitions a bit better. If they constantly have a problem with time constraints, it probably means they're constantly shooting too high. That's what the whole process of balancing amount of content vs. quality of content is all about. Do what you can really well rather than attempting and failing at a lot of other stuff.

This.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's like Peter Molyneux's mouth sits in on their planning sessions.

 

[Erzengel]

Knights of the Old Republic is my favorite game. I'm waiting for Bioware to come up with a Xbox/PS3 game along the same lines. Not a fan of MMO.

KOTOR 2 wasn't nearly as good in terms of storyline. It felt rushed and actually I put it down when I just had an Xbox and only this year did I play it on the 360.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

If The Old Republic were a one-time purchase, I'd consider playing it. It sounds like they're really focusing on story, as opposed to most other MMOs, so it seems like it could be like a mini-KotOR for each class. But since it's gonna inevitably require a subscription, f*** that. I have enough bills every month without adding another one for the privilege of BioWare allowing me to play their game online when I'm not even interested in the MMO aspects of it.

 

[Erzengel]

I must do a game a month? Think I've completed almost 9 games this year. I just can't put that many hours into a MMO. I have like only 6 hours in between going home and going to bed. I'd like to throw in eating, relaxing, etc. in there.

 

[El Bastardo]

MMOs can be fun, with the right community, but unfortunately yeah, they're usually a time-sink.

I hate that I played WoW for as long as I did. What I don't hate is the fantastic role-play guild I spent a large portion of that time with, though.

I miss having a bunch of buddies I could do table-top RPGs with. SAD PANDA.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't really care to associate with other people in games, to be honest. I always prefer single-player to multiplayer content.

 

[Erzengel]

I like co-op sometimes. I have fun playing Gears of War or Splinter Cell Conviction with my friend.

 

[El Bastardo]

I don't really care to associate with other people in games, to be honest. I always prefer single-player to multiplayer content.

So do I, in most cases.

But we're slowly figuring you out, Corp. So far... you're a hermit. And you can't tell the difference between a Dodge Charger and an SUV! Bwahaha!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It was a tiny part of the car and I didn't remember that the Charger was a two-door!

 

[Cmill216]

I love the concept of MMOs, but the execution (or complete lack of story) is really what kept me from getting into WoW or any of its clones.

But The Old Republic feels like the solution. It's everything you could want in a game. The story and the choices all feel right at home for a Mass Effect fan. You can decide to go solo or group up, and you open up new possibilities with multiplayer dialogue. All of your random "Kill X for Y" grinding quests actually have a compelling story behind them, so there's never the feeling of questing for the sake of questing.

Not to mention the fact that, yeah, even if you weren't interested in going through all of the MMO elements, the time it would take you to complete 8 different storylines, with 16 different advanced classes, each with their own morality scale, offers up enough story possibilities to keep you playing for a damn long time.

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

Guild Wars method of gameplay pretty much done away with forced grinding altogether.