MCU Timeline+Confusions

Except its not just Homecoming.Civil war hints at Ironman/Avengers occuring 8 years before Homecoming.
I think its a deliberate retcon they made in order to have Homecoming happen in 2020 probably due to Infinity war.Which is stupid as it unneccesary ages up the Avengers.

My Preffered timeline is this

2011-Ironman 1 and 2,Thor,Incredible Hulk
2012-Avengers,Iron man 3
2015-Winter Soldier
2016-Age of Ultron
2017-Civil war and Homecoming.

As R already said, Vision only referred to Iron Man 1. In fact General Ross referred to The Avengers taking place in 2012, by saying "in the last 4 years you've been operating..." - people trying to correct the timeline will count that line as referring to the Age of Ultron ending team, but that's even more ridiculous (Cap's new team active for 4 years between AoU & Civil War? Seriously? Longer than the main team?).

Or even count Ross as referring to when the the main team got back together after TWS, but Falcon states that it's only been 2 years between TWS and Civil War.

I think the Russos/Markus & McFeely were trying to set the timeline in stone, and properly so if anything.
 
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did Shane Black rape your dog or something?
what if I told you the answer is yes...but seriously, I actually like Shane Black. I really, really loved the movie The Nice Guys but Iron Man 3 was terrible, the biggest misstep of the MCU so far, and undoubtedly the most controversial film they've released no matter how much you like it personally. It's no wonder to me that Marvel have basically ignored it or retconned it when necessary since it came out.
As R already said, Vision only referred to Iron Man 1. In fact General Ross referred to The Avengers taking place in 2012, by saying "in the last 4 years you've been operating..." - people trying to correct the timeline will write that off by counting that line as referring to the Age of Ultron ending team, but that's even more ridiculous
Yes, it is. General Ross was referring to The Winter Soldier, when SHIELD collapses and they lost oversight. It was not referring to The Avengers.

This is the "new" timeline

2009: Iron Man
2010: The Avengers
2014: The Winter Soldier
2016: Age of Ultron
2018: Civil War, Homecoming

I have stress-tested this against everything from the films that I could think of. In this timeline, for example...assuming Tony goes public in late 2009 and Civil War takes place in early 2018, Vision would be correct to say it has been about eight years. A few months later, Homecoming and Avengers are also separated by about eight years. Especially when both statements are informal, meaning they could actually mean anything from 7 years 7 months (rounding up) to 8 years 11 months (hard-dating like a birthday.)

Set props for Homecoming confirm that the "new" timeline has it happening in 2018. I believe they did this so Peter would still be in high school for his next film, which will release in 2019 (the same year as the film will take place in-universe.)

Here's the thing...the only conflict here is between Iron Man 3 and Homecoming. All the other problems are only adjacent to this. For example, the only reason the "eight years later" in 2018's Homecoming would seem to conflict with The Avengers is that Iron Man 3 takes place in 2013. Iron Man 3, the weakest link in the MCU, has been factually sacrificed for the future of the franchise. If anyone can find me an example from the films where my proposed timeline is wrong (except for Iron Man 3 OR a blurry calendar/newspaper in the background of a single shot) you win a No-Prize.
 
It's no wonder to me that Marvel have basically ignored it or retconned it when necessary since it came out..
Which they of course never had.
If anyone can find me an example from the films where my proposed timeline is wrong (except for Iron Man 3
That's not how the Force works. No matter how hard you hate Trevor Slattery, you just can't wish that film away and believe your headcanon is the official one. If that would work, there would be no Prequel Trilogy, believe me.
 
Yeah Iron Man 3 happened and there's no erasing it, like it or not.
 
That's not how the Force works. No matter how hard you hate Homecoming, you just can't wish that film away and believe your headcanon is the official one. If that would work, there would be no Prequel Trilogy, believe me.
I too, hate the prequel trilogy, but here's the thing dude...either Iron Man 3 is correct or Homecoming is correct.

Iron Man 3 says The Avengers is 2012 or 2013, putting Homecoming solidly in 2020 or 2021. However, set props for Homecoming were made to be 2018, lining up the Homecoming sequel to come out the same year it does in-universe (2019.) So it would seem the studio is agreeing with my "head canon"...are you sure you aren't the one trying to force your own head canon against the official story?

Get woke, folks. All Hail the King was just the warning shot.
 
I too, hate the prequel trilogy, but here's the thing dude...either Iron Man 3 is correct or Homecoming is correct.

Iron Man 3 says The Avengers is 2012 or 2013, putting Homecoming solidly in 2020 or 2021. However, set props for Homecoming were made to be 2018, lining up the Homecoming sequel to come out the same year it does in-universe (2019.) So it would seem the studio is agreeing with my "head canon"...are you sure you aren't the one trying to force your own head canon against the official story?

Get woke, folks. All Hail the King was just the warning shot.
Firstly, all things aside, I don't hate Homecoming, I like it very much and think it is the best representation of Spidey I've seen on film. Secondly, ignoring the '8 years' mumbo jumbo would set it in 2016, the same year as CW, not 2020
Thirdly, to quote you: "If anyone can find me an example from the films where my proposed timeline is wrong (except for Iron Man 3 OR a blurry calendar/newspaper in the background of a single shot)" So if you can find me any example from the film where HC is set in 2019 or 2018 (except for blurry props in the background in a single shot, that would be nice
 
Firstly, all things aside, I don't hate Homecoming
I never thought you did, actually, I just wanted to point out that your logic applied equally to what you were accusing me of with Iron Man 3.
Secondly, ignoring the '8 years' mumbo jumbo would set it in 2016, the same year as CW, not 2020
This is assuming Iron Man went public in 2008. Where is this confirmed in the films?
if you can find me any example from the film where HC is set in 2019 or 2018 (except for blurry props in the background in a single shot, that would be nice
This is my point. :)

It's entirely up to the fans to decide now because there is a contradiction between Iron Man 3 and Homecoming. The fans are going to choose Homecoming and Fiege&Co. released the film knowing this would happen (bless them!)

Here's what I mean when I say Iron Man 3 has essentially been ignored or retconned since release.

There are three other solo films in Phase 2. If someone skipped TDK, they are going to be confused by Ragnorak. What happened to Odin...why is Loki in the throne etc. Considering Loki is in Infinity War, I would be shocked in TDK isn't crucial to understanding he and Thor's position in it (not to mention the Infinity Stone.) If someone skipped The Winter Soldier, already in Age of Ultron they'd be wondering where SHIELD is. Later on, they'd be wondering who Falcon is and what the hell happened to Bucky. Even Ant-Man, who only made a small appearance in Civil War has several lines that only make sense if you've seen Ant-Man.

Compare this to Iron Man 3. If someone was watching the MCU beginning to end and they skipped Iron Man 3...would they even notice? It has had zero impact on anything that has followed. Some parts of it are referenced in a single line of dialogue in Civil War...but only to further explain the situation between Tony and Pepper, which is already established in the film itself, and the line itself makes complete sense at face value and needs no further explanation (as opposed to a line like "It'll never happen again, Tic-Tac." or "Hank told me never to trust a Stark.")

In fact, watching IM3 would likely confuse a new viewer more than anything. I remember the first thing I thought when watching Age of Ultron was..."Oh, I guess he didn't stop making suits after all."

It's not by accident that literally nothing has grown out of Iron Man 3. The orders came from on high to let it die. And there were a banquet of options...the young kid has never shown up since, or Extremis, the Iron Patriot armor (not to mention any of the thirty other armors Tony made), Tony's PTSD, or even Tony having the shrapnel removed...and wait, wasn't there something about Tony either being Iron Man or Pepper would leave him? I guess Homecoming had more than one retcon...those two are acting exactly the same as they did in The Avengers again! Then there's All Hail the King, of course, which is basically an apology to the fans. And where is good ole' Trevor Slattery anyway? If the Mandarin Twist was such a hit, then why haven't we seen more of one of the only villains in the MCU who wasn't maimed, killed or blasted into space?

The funny thing is that, unlike the general panic and confusion a lot of fans are experiencing right now, as soon as I saw "Eight years later" in the theater I was like, "wow...they finally did it! IM3 is dead! ALL HAIL THE KING FIEGE!"
 
what if I told you the answer is yes...but seriously, I actually like Shane Black. I really, really loved the movie The Nice Guys but Iron Man 3 was terrible, the biggest misstep of the MCU so far, and undoubtedly the most controversial film they've released no matter how much you like it personally. It's no wonder to me that Marvel have basically ignored it or retconned it when necessary since it came out.Yes, it is. General Ross was referring to The Winter Soldier, when SHIELD collapses and they lost oversight. It was not referring to The Avengers.

This is the "new" timeline

2009: Iron Man
2010: The Avengers
2014: The Winter Soldier
2016: Age of Ultron
2018: Civil War, Homecoming

I have stress-tested this against everything from the films that I could think of. In this timeline, for example...assuming Tony goes public in late 2009 and Civil War takes place in early 2018, Vision would be correct to say it has been about eight years. A few months later, Homecoming and Avengers are also separated by about eight years. Especially when both statements are informal, meaning they could actually mean anything from 7 years 7 months (rounding up) to 8 years 11 months (hard-dating like a birthday.)

Set props for Homecoming confirm that the "new" timeline has it happening in 2018. I believe they did this so Peter would still be in high school for his next film, which will release in 2019 (the same year as the film will take place in-universe.)

Here's the thing...the only conflict here is between Iron Man 3 and Homecoming. All the other problems are only adjacent to this. For example, the only reason the "eight years later" in 2018's Homecoming would seem to conflict with The Avengers is that Iron Man 3 takes place in 2013. Iron Man 3, the weakest link in the MCU, has been factually sacrificed for the future of the franchise. If anyone can find me an example from the films where my proposed timeline is wrong (except for Iron Man 3 OR a blurry calendar/newspaper in the background of a single shot) you win a No-Prize.

As I said, Falcon's lines alone contradict your spacing between Winter Soldier & Civil War.

"Weren't you the same person who told the government to kiss their ass a couple years ago?"

"Steve, we looked for the guy for 2 years and found nothing."
 
I never thought you did, actually, I just wanted to point out that your logic applied equally to what you were accusing me of with Iron Man 3.This is assuming Iron Man went public in 2008. Where is this confirmed in the films?This is my point. :)

It's entirely up to the fans to decide now because there is a contradiction between Iron Man 3 and Homecoming. The fans are going to choose Homecoming and Fiege&Co. released the film knowing this would happen (bless them!)

Here's what I mean when I say Iron Man 3 has essentially been ignored or retconned since release.

There are three other solo films in Phase 2. If someone skipped TDK, they are going to be confused by Ragnorak. What happened to Odin...why is Loki in the throne etc. Considering Loki is in Infinity War, I would be shocked in TDK isn't crucial to understanding he and Thor's position in it (not to mention the Infinity Stone.) If someone skipped The Winter Soldier, already in Age of Ultron they'd be wondering where SHIELD is. Later on, they'd be wondering who Falcon is and what the hell happened to Bucky. Even Ant-Man, who only made a small appearance in Civil War has several lines that only make sense if you've seen Ant-Man.

Compare this to Iron Man 3. If someone was watching the MCU beginning to end and they skipped Iron Man 3...would they even notice? It has had zero impact on anything that has followed. Some parts of it are referenced in a single line of dialogue in Civil War...but only to further explain the situation between Tony and Pepper, which is already established in the film itself, and the line itself makes complete sense at face value and needs no further explanation (as opposed to a line like "It'll never happen again, Tic-Tac." or "Hank told me never to trust a Stark.")

In fact, watching IM3 would likely confuse a new viewer more than anything. I remember the first thing I thought when watching Age of Ultron was..."Oh, I guess he didn't stop making suits after all."

It's not by accident that literally nothing has grown out of Iron Man 3. The orders came from on high to let it die. And there were a banquet of options...the young kid has never shown up since, or Extremis, the Iron Patriot armor (not to mention any of the thirty other armors Tony made), Tony's PTSD, or even Tony having the shrapnel removed...and wait, wasn't there something about Tony either being Iron Man or Pepper would leave him? I guess Homecoming had more than one retcon...those two are acting exactly the same as they did in The Avengers again! Then there's All Hail the King, of course, which is basically an apology to the fans. And where is good ole' Trevor Slattery anyway? If the Mandarin Twist was such a hit, then why haven't we seen more of one of the only villains in the MCU who wasn't maimed, killed or blasted into space?

The funny thing is that, unlike the general panic and confusion a lot of fans are experiencing right now, as soon as I saw "Eight years later" in the theater I was like, "wow...they finally did it! IM3 is dead! ALL HAIL THE KING FIEGE!"
okay, it has been a long day, let's see if I find the energy to adress most or at least some of this.

I never accused you of anything, you were the one bringing IM3 'retconning' into the discussion and thought that All Hail The King somehow is something different than just another layer on the cleverly crafted multilayered Mandarin-cake.

Which you right now described as an 'apology' to the 'fans'. apology for what? For adapting a character that had many different iterations and versions in the source material faithfully in the regard that we were presented with different versions of the character that all could be compared in many regards to source material interpretations?

Because AHTK was no apology. It just presented us with another version of the same character as true to the Manderin as the others, depending on which version (or versions) of the character in the source material you want to look at.

now that I have that out of my system, what was your next misconception? Ah, yes. IM3 was ignored ever after.

That's simply not true. Even ignoring blatant references to the film, like the inclusion of President Ellis into the broader MCU narrative (and he showed up a lot of times in other media), the subtle implications of the outcome of the movie were acknowledged in later films. Not through clunky dialogue - most of the time - mostly through a change in Tony Stark's persona. IM3 was the point that led to change in personal objectives which led to AoU and finally CW, a pschological arc, started by the events of Shane Black's movie.

What's next? Oh yes, the Mandarin wasn't killed so why has he not returned? That puzzles me. Out of the many Mandarin interpretations, which one do you mean? Slattery, who we know was brought to the 'Mandarin' from AHTK and likely killed? I assume he didn't returne, because he's propably dead already. Killian, who died at the end of the movie? Well, he's dead already. The AHTK-Mandarin? Well, from the descriptions of him given in AHTK, why would he? Public appearances don't sound like his modus operandi.

Nevertheless, there are of course a couple of other villains or antagonists in the MCU movies who survived the movies they first appeared in. Out of them, not counting Thanos, because, you know, he hasn't started doing anything yet, other then getting up from the chair and putting an oversized glove on, only Loki appeared again. Red Skull? Never seen again. Does that mean CA:TFA is somehow retconned? Abomination? Never seen again? TIH- retconned in its entirety? Zemo? Is CW retconned, because we never have heard of him again?

Oh yeah, but Pepper, what about her? She didn't leave him, you say? She actually did. That was mentioned. They broke up. They're back together now. It's a complicated relationship, it seems.

There is probably more in this wall of text, full of hatred against a movie that didn't give you exactly what you wanted in an inconsequential villain (but instead made so much more of him, brillantly, I might add), but since I haven't slept for 26 hours and should do so, I really don't want to invest more time in this.

Just one more question: When you write TDK, from the context, I assume you mean Thor: The Dark World?

So, good night, remember, this thread is about the colossal error in the timeline that we have thanks to whoever is responsible for that f*** up in Homecoming and not about IM3 (there's a whole thread for that in the Iron Man forum)
 
As I said, Falcon's lines alone contradict your spacing between Winter Soldier & Civil War.

"Weren't you the same person who told the government to kiss their ass a couple years ago?"

"Steve, we looked for the guy for 2 years and found nothing."

Oh! I was under impression that Falcon specifically said that Black Widow thing happened 2 years ago. By reaching just a bit, it could mean 4 years. And maybe Steve and Sam simply quit after two years. They did at some point, because they're not actively looking for him in Civil War.

2010 - The Avengers (Cap goes working for Shield)
2014 - The Winter Soldier (Cap searches for Bucky until it's time to fully devote his time for the Avengers)
2016 - Age of Ultron
2018 - Civil War

I personally love Iron Man 3 and I don't consider Marvel to be ignoring it. I felt that Tony's characterisation in AoU followed naturally from what was established in Three. Anyway, was it actually spoken out loud that Avengers happened six months prior? If not, it doesn't really break the timeline. Maybe Tony's PTSD simply started manifesting years after the events that caused it.

There is some serious no-prizing happening in here. :D
 
They just did (or at least the timing of it.)

The timeline conflict in the films is purely between Iron Man 3 and Homecoming. All the other dating that seems to conflict is based upon assuming the 2013 from Iron Man 3 is accurate. For example, the only reason we have assumed The Avengers took place in 2012 or early 2013 is that it seems to happen soon before Iron Man 3.

All Hail the King was the first sign. Then Age of Ultron totally ignored everything that happened in Iron Man 3. Now we've got very obvious timeline retcons...the sooner you forget Iron Man 3 ever happened, the sooner your mind will be at peace.

All aboard, folks, there's plenty of room.

But what Tony said about Pepper and his suits all happened in Iron Man 3. Civil War acknowledged the film so there is no ignoring the fact that the events of IM3 did happened.
 
Someone should get James Gunn on this on Twitter or Facebook, even though he has nothing to do with Homecoming lol.
He always gets on this stuff and keeps us informed

Better yet, someone should ask Kevin Feige directly
 
This movie was produced by Sony and I think there are continuity errors in it because of that. Time references in this movie to other events should not be taken seriously.

Here is how the timeline should be:

2008- Iron Man
2011-Iron Man 2, Thor, and Incredible Hulk
2011-12- Captain America returns to life
2012- Avengers, Iron Man 3
2013- Thor: Dark World. Stark is retired and the Avengers are not active.
2014- GOTG, GOTG2, and Winter Solider. The Avengers become active again and Stark comes out of retirement.
2015- Age of Ultron, Ant-Man
2016- Civil War, Spider-Man: Homecoming
2016-17- Doctor Strange
2015-18- Thor: Ragnarok

Iron man 2 takes place 6 months after IM 1, Stark and Hammer say that, if I´m not mistaken
 
It feels weird now. I'm listening to podcasts and it seems many of them brought it up. I've seen every MCU film and I'm a huge fan but I didn't think about if the time was correct at all in either of the times I saw Homecoming. Was anyone really watching the movie and noticed it immediately?
 
As I said, Falcon's lines alone contradict your spacing between Winter Soldier & Civil War.

"Weren't you the same person who told the government to kiss their ass a couple years ago?"
Why can't "a couple years" mean four years?
"Steve, we looked for the guy for 2 years and found nothing."
This doesn't mean there couldn't be more than two years between Civil War and The Winter Soldier, just that they looked for Bucky for two years after The Winter Soldier.

Anything besides Iron Man 3 that is conflicting with the new timeline laid out in Homecoming and you win a No-Prize. Offer still stands.
 
Anything besides Iron Man 3 that is conflicting with the new timeline laid out in Homecoming and you win a No-Prize. Offer still stands.
Okay, let's take a look at the evidence we have:

December 31st 1999/January 1st 2000 - fixed date, Tony at the conference in Bern, meets Yinsen, Killian et al. (IM3)
February 14th 2008 - fixed date, Killian find candidates for the Extremis program (date shown in IM3)
2010 - IM (6 months before IM2 as stated by Senator Stern in IM2)
2011 - Fury's big week (Fury mentions in TA that the events of Thor happend 'last year')
2012 - the Battle of New York/ the Incident (year given in AoS S2E06 A Fractured House)
December 2012 - IM3
September 9th 2013 - set date, Grant Ward is promoted to Level 7 and gets a new ID batch with it's date clearly visible in AoS S1Eo1 Pilot
November 2013 - Thor The Dark World (Darcy states that Thor was gone for over 2 years since the events of the first Thor, set in 2011, A calender can be seen in the movie saying November)
First Half of 2014 - Winter Soldier (Falcon states they're looking for the Winter Soldier for two years in Civil War, given that Rogers says he's 95 in TWS it has to happen before July 4th)
2014 - GotG, Got2 v2 ('34 years later' than the '1980' opening scene of the first movie)
January 6th 2015 - This google+ post
310

May(?) 2015 - AoU (in CW it is mentioned by Tony that 'Spencer decided to spend his summer in Sokovia' which is when the battle of Sokovia happend. Zemo says he spent over a year planning his revenge. So early summer, really, May probably
July 17th 2015, set date, Scott Lang is released from prison (WHiH)
December 2015, Peter Parker was bitten by a spider (He had this power for 'six months' in CW)
May 3rd, 2016 - set date, WHiH coverage of Lagos Incident
June 2016 - Vienna International Center bombing, stated as 'one month after Lagos' (or Lagos was stated as 'last month' something along that line)
August or September 2016 - Start of Homecoming, judging by the 'two months later'. Assuming CW happend late in June, September is more likely, given that August is an akward time to go to High School (as is June for having homework, frankly, but I have no idea when summer holidays in the US usually end)



that's the bits that are working, now for the onscreen bits that didn't work:

2020
- the events of Homecoming (8 years after the Battle of New York)




edit: rereading this, I noticed I forgot Visions line in CW about the '8 years since Tony Stark announced himself as Iron Man' which, going by all other evidence surprisingly doesn't work neither with earlier given dates. So either IM is set in 2008 instead of 2010 which doesn't work with the dates given in TA and IM2 or CW is set in 2018, which means, since Cap is still 95 in TWS, Falcon and Cap started looking for Bucky in 2016, two years after the events of TWS and after AoU. This would also mean that the date of the WHiH footage for CW is wrong by 2 years.
It still doesn't make any sense in relation to the 2020 date of Homecoming, though. There's still a gap


2016 seems to be the year Dr. Strange started his training under the Ancient One, I can't remember any exact dates given in canon. IF Strange started experimenting with the Eye of Agamoto around May/June 2016 however, there might be an in universe reason for both Vision's 'eight years' and Toomes' 'eight years', as in Strange broke time completely in early summer 2016
I want my No-Prize
 
I've always felt the "6 months later" in Iron Man 2 could be interpreted as 6 months since Whiplash finished his arc reactor.

He could've spent a year and a half since "I Am Iron Man" making it.
 
Why can't "a couple years" mean four years?

Best said:
"Steve, we looked for the guy for 2 years and found nothing".
NealKenneth said:
This doesn't mean there couldn't be more than two years between Civil War and The Winter Soldier, just that they looked for Bucky for two years after The Winter Soldier.

Anything besides Iron Man 3 that is conflicting with the new timeline laid out in Homecoming and you win a No-Prize. Offer still stands.

Zemo said that he spent 1 year plotting his revenge against the Avengers for the deaths of his family resulting from the Sokovia disaster. We know that Avengers: Age of Ultron is set in-between Winter Soldier and Civil War which means that both Falcon and Zemo have told us all that 2 years have passed between films.
 
^ you don't know how soon after the events at Sokovia he started planning just that he spent a year doing it.

It's looking more and more like if we ignore AOS, and promo material we can work this out. The movies are probably the only solid canon, and we should probably be using Ordinal dates. Anyway. . . .

1945 - Cap:TFA

1988 - Pete Abducted
1989 - Pym Resigns from Shield

1991 - Tony's Parents killed.

1999/2000 - IM3 Start

2008 - Hulk Starts, IM
2009 - Hulk ends alongside IM2, IM2, Thor, Cap Unfrozen (we know just from clues these are pretty tightly grouped)
2010 - Avengers (may)
2011 - Thor TDW
2012 - IM3
2013 - TWS
2014 - GotG 1&2,
2015 - AoU, Ant Man,
2016 - Dr. S
2017 - Civil War (May - Sept), SMH (Sept)
 
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I've always felt the "6 months later" in Iron Man 2 could be interpreted as 6 months since Whiplash finished his arc reactor.

He could've spent a year and a half since "I Am Iron Man" making it.

I agree with this. I think you can easily retcon IM2 as having taking place several years after IM1.

That being said, I'm disregarding the eight years line in Homecoming as being simply a writer's error.
 
Yeah regardless of how you try to change the dates of when the movies take place the math still doesn't add up. I seriously doubt that the 8 years later thing was just a mistake. Someone would have had to have caught that, so I'm pretty sure the timeline has been altered on purpose. I wonder for what reason though?

Could be doctor strange or Floating timeline/sliding timescale THAT MAYBE IS IN THE MCU like the comics.

That's talked about below in the third link below.


Spider-Man: Homecoming screws up the Marvel Cinematic Universe ...

Spider-Man Homecoming Messes up the MCU Timeline - YouTube


How Spider-Man Breaks MCU Timeline! - YouTube




Timeline | Marvel Cinematic Universe Wiki | FANDOM powered by ...
 
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As soon as I saw the [BLACKOUT]8 years later[/BLACKOUT] my brain was like 'what the hell, that makes no sense'

It bugged me throughout the film, though I was kind of like well this was gonna happen if and most likely when they start recasting that will mess the timeline up as the characters will no longer be the age they appeared previously, although I noticed RDJ looking younger in this one than CW and AOU so...

But then I thought as others appeared to, this must have been meant MCU has some continuity problems but they're usually nitpicky and small but this is a major one and [BLACKOUT]8 years later[/BLACKOUT] did not need to be clarified nor did [BLACKOUT]Happy at the end saying I've carried this since 2008.[/BLACKOUT]
 
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