Fant4stic Michael B Jordan is "Flame On!" The Human Torch - Part 2

[Paradox1]

Having Sue being played by a black actress would of been very nice and neat. No adoption and it would of been more in line with the comics. However from my understanding Sue's adoption plays a role in explaining her powers. Sue feels invisible in her family probably because Dr. Storm favors Johnny even if its on a subconscious level. If this is the way they go with it, then I think it is more than a fine way to go with the character.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Having Sue being played by a black actress would of been very nice and neat. No adoption and it would of been more in line with the comics. However from my understanding Sue's adoption plays a role in explaining her powers. Sue feels invisible in her family probably because Dr. Storm favors Johnny even if its on a subconscious level. If this is the way they go with it, then I think it is more than a fine way to go with the character.

So they are going to make a Sue Storm that is nothing like Sue Storm? Yeah, I can see why fans are upset about this. And so much for the argument that their relationship is not changing because they aren't blood siblings.

FFINO indeed.

 

[Paradox1]

So they are going to make a Sue Storm that is nothing like Sue Storm? Yeah, I can see why fans are upset about this. And so much for the argument that their relationship is not changing because they aren't blood siblings.

FFINO indeed.

What does feeling invisible to your father have to change the relationship with her brother. This happens all the time in blood siblings where a parent seems to favor one child over another. That never changes the bond between the siblings.

 

[Nokio]

This left me with a strange and not very good feeling...



"We", "We", "me", I have the feeling that Jordan is way more guilty in this mess than we thought. I won't blame Teller or Bell for being miscast. It's Fox and Trank fault. I won't blame Kate Mara either for not doing what she was doing, it's also Trank and Kinberg fault. I thought the same for Jordan, until this...

We all thought that Trank choose Jordan before anything else for Johnny Storm, what if, indeed, it's the exact opposite ?
I remembered when Fox began to claim that Trank was directing FF(INO), Trank wasn't that much pleased. He debunked the news for weeks. He never seemed very enthousiastic. Could it be possible that, for having the role, Jordan pushed a reluctant Trank to be the director, then beginning this trainweck.

What Michael B Jordan are we talking about here? The only one I know is black and in his mid 20's and is an up and coming actor.

Now are you referring to another Michael B Jordan in Hollywood that has power and clout and can have FOX make changes to characters and pick directors or get a director he wants like Trank on board the projects? Where is this version of Michael b Jordan??? I'm not familiar with him.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Having Sue being played by a black actress would of been very nice and neat. No adoption and it would of been more in line with the comics. However from my understanding Sue's adoption plays a role in explaining her powers. Sue feels invisible in her family probably because Dr. Storm favors Johnny even if its on a subconscious level. If this is the way they go with it, then I think it is more than a fine way to go with the character.

Where did you get this? How do we even know she's adopted? The only mention of her being adopted I've seen was from the fake Josh Trank Twitter.

This also sounds very similar to the first film. Do you think after all their bad-mouthing of that first film they will use this premise again?

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Oh I know there are plenty of Directors who have a group of regulars they use in most of their films like the Coen brothers, Nolan used virtually the entire cast of Inception in Dark Knight Rises. I think the problem is that it normally when it happens it is with characters who have never had their appearances defined in any medium and so they have a lot more freedom. With this you have a character whos appearance has been well defined for over 50 years, even in UFF they never tried to change the formula.

Millar and Hitch did try. The original sketches for Ultimate Ben Grimm was a black dude. Marvel nixed it even though they'd had major success with Ultimate Fury.

Hollywood does it all the time. Usually just with ethnicity/nationalitites, so few people notice Japanese playing Chinese. Latinos playing Natives.

I'm pretty sure the 100 year old Peter Pan character Tiger Lily is supposed to be native American yet Rooney Mara is playing her. Have you seen that EXODUS Gods and KINGS trailer? "Egyptian" Christian Bale. Whateves.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Where did you get this? How do we even know she's adopted? The only mention of her being adopted I've seen was from the fake Josh Trank Twitter.

Well there's this:

http://schmoesknow.com/hot-scoop-new-fantastic-four-plot-details-revealed/29653/

This seemed pretty obvious to me though when they cast Reg E. Cathey as papa Storm.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Well there's this:

http://schmoesknow.com/hot-scoop-new-fantastic-four-plot-details-revealed/29653/

This seemed pretty obvious to me though when they cast Reg E. Cathey as papa Storm.

Ah, yeah, I do remember that article now that you mention it, but it seemed to have so little real information combined with bizarre enthusiasm that I dismissed it as not particularly credible.

 

[The Question]

Having Sue being played by a black actress would of been very nice and neat. No adoption and it would of been more in line with the comics. However from my understanding Sue's adoption plays a role in explaining her powers. Sue feels invisible in her family probably because Dr. Storm favors Johnny even if its on a subconscious level. If this is the way they go with it, then I think it is more than a fine way to go with the character.

I seriously hope not. The racial politics of a white woman adopted into a black family and being the less favored child would be incredibly difficult to navigate and come off as credible and not insulting.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

What does feeling invisible to your father have to change the relationship with her brother. This happens all the time in blood siblings where a parent seems to favor one child over another. That never changes the bond between the siblings.

Sue is the elder sister that constantly looks after her younger, immature brother.

Now you are making Sue the black sheep of the family, an adopted sibling ignored in favor of her legitimate step-brother. This bothers her to the point where as you said, she 'feels invisible.' This empowers Johnny at the expense of Sue, effectively making him the alpha in the relationship when it should be the other way around. This fundamentally changes their dynamic and basically ruins Sue's character in the process.

It can work from an original character standpoint, but it is no longer the Fantastic Four.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I seriously hope not. The racial politics of a white woman adopted into a black family and being the less favored child would be incredibly difficult to navigate and come off as credible and not insulting.

That too.

 

[The Question]

Sue is the elder sister that constantly looks after her younger, immature brother.

Now you are making Sue the black sheep of the family, an adopted sibling ignored in favor of her legitimate step-brother. This bothers her to the point where as you said, she 'feels invisible.' This empowers Johnny at the expense of Sue, effectively making him the alpha in the relationship when it should be the other way around. This fundamentally changes their dynamic and basically ruins Sue's character in the process.

It can work from an original character standpoint, but it is no longer the Fantastic Four.

I don't like the idea, but I don't think your interpretation of it is that accurate. Their relationship doesn't have to be that cut and dry. It's not at all implausible to have an elder sister who is constantly looking after her younger, immature brother who is also their parents' favorite and who gets more attention and praise from them. In fact, that's a scenario that you see play out in fiction a lot. The responsible older sibling who takes care of his or her immature ****up of a younger sibling in a very paternal role while their real parents dote on the younger sibling and ignore the older sibling's accomplishments is a pretty common archetype. It wouldn't fundamentally change their dynamic, it would just add another layer of interpersonal tension to it. Sue would still be Johnny's beleaguered surrogate mother, it's just that there's an added element to the tension between them besides basic annoyance on Sue's part. I don't see how it would ruin her character at all.

But the racial element is what makes it dubious in my eyes.

 

[Zarex]

Sue is the elder sister that constantly looks after her younger, immature brother.

Now you are making Sue the black sheep of the family, an adopted sibling ignored in favor of her legitimate step-brother. This bothers her to the point where as you said, she 'feels invisible.' This empowers Johnny at the expense of Sue, effectively making him the alpha in the relationship when it should be the other way around. This fundamentally changes their dynamic and basically ruins Sue's character in the process.

It can work from an original character standpoint, but it is no longer the Fantastic Four.

There's a lot of relationship ruining going on in the Tranktastic Four, the most egregious of which is Johnny, Ben and Reed all being approximately the same age. I can live with major changes in the filmed versions of my favorite comic book characters, but that more than anything else makes it FFINO.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

There's a lot of relationship ruining going on in the Tranktastic Four, the most egregious of which is Johnny, Ben and Reed all being approximately the same age. I can live with major changes in the filmed versions of my favorite comic book characters, but that more than anything else makes it FFINO.

Right. The problem isn't that they aren't doing EVERYTHING right. The problem is that they aren't doing ANYTHING right.

 

[The Question]

I must be completely honest, the age thing does not bother me. This is just my own personal take away from the FF lore, but I never thought that the age gap in the group was particularly vital. In fact, I always thought the age gap between Reed and Sue was kind of creepy.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

There's a lot of relationship ruining going on in the Tranktastic Four, the most egregious of which is Johnny, Ben and Reed all being approximately the same age. I can live with major changes in the filmed versions of my favorite comic book characters, but that more than anything else makes it FFINO.

Agreed. We could come up with a thousand scenarios in which we could change the characters and do interesting things, but the characters are already defined. That should be the whole point of making a movie like this. There are millions of people who know and love the characters as they are and the goal of a film like this should be to create adventures for those characters - not recreate the characters themselves.

 

[Paradox1]

Where did you get this? How do we even know she's adopted? The only mention of her being adopted I've seen was from the fake Josh Trank Twitter.

This also sounds very similar to the first film. Do you think after all their bad-mouthing of that first film they will use this premise again?

She is adopted and the premise of her feeling invisible is the same but for a far less shallow a reason. From what I remember she felt invisible to Reed because he got caught up in his work. The scars from growing up are far more lasting which is why I believe its shallow.

I seriously hope not. The racial politics of a white woman adopted into a black family and being the less favored child would be incredibly difficult to navigate and come off as credible and not insulting.

Regardless of race there are fathers who just don't know what to do with girls. Let's also take into consideration that to this date we've heard no news of a Mama Storm. Which I believe makes it safe to assume is deceased. Its conceivable that Sue stepped into her role becoming de facto mom taking care of Johnny and her dad. However people are going interpret things the way they seem fit regardless of how it's presented. I have no intimate knowledge of how it will be play in the film. Just judging from what I have heard I believe this is most likely.

Sue is the elder sister that constantly looks after her younger, immature brother.

Now you are making Sue the black sheep of the family, an adopted sibling ignored in favor of her legitimate step-brother.

First not being favored by one parent does not make you the black sheep. A black sheep isn't different in that regard,they are just the disgrace of the family.

This bothers her to the point where as you said, she 'feels invisible.' This empowers Johnny at the expense of Sue, effectively making him the alpha in the relationship when it should be the other way around.

It can empower Johnny, by giving him license to continue to be a immature hothead. If he knows he has a sibling who will always be there to bail them out and little to no parental discipline headed his way.

This fundamentally changes their dynamic and basically ruins Sue's character in the process.

It can work from an original character standpoint, but it is no longer the Fantastic Four.

if Johnny is still the hot head and Sue is still the responsible child who cleans up after her brother. Then what has changed?

 

[The Question]

Agreed. We could come up with a thousand scenarios in which we could change the characters and do interesting things, but the characters are already defined. That should be the whole point of making a movie like this. There are millions of people who know and love the characters as they are and the goal of a film like this should be to create adventures for those characters - not recreate the characters themselves.

Recreating the character to some extent in unavoidable. An integral part of the process of adapting a character into a new medium is discovering things about that character to sink your hooks into them. I think the best adaptations are the ones that add or emphasize a new or overlooked dimension to the character.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

She is adopted

This may be true, but I don't know how you can say it with certainty. I certainly haven't seen Trank or Kinberg or anybody else associated with the production comment on this point directly. She may be adopted, they may be step-brother and sister, they may not be brother and sister at all etc. etc. etc.

 

[Paradox1]

This may be true, but I don't know how you can say it with certainty. I certainly haven't seen Trank or Kinberg or anybody else associated with the production comment on this point directly. She may be adopted, they may be step-brother and sister, they may not be brother and sister at all etc. etc. etc.

Her being adopted by Dr. Storm could be because she is his step daughter.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Recreating the character to some extent in unavoidable. An integral part of the process of adapting a character into a new medium is discovering things about that character to sink your hooks into them. I think the best adaptations are the ones that add or emphasize a new or overlooked dimension to the character.

I was talking about age. Age isn't some hidden thing that hasn't been explored before.

 

[The Question]

I was talking about age. Age isn't some hidden thing that hasn't been explored before.

True. But to me, the relative ages of the characters aren't that important. Like I said, the age gap between the two halves of the team never felt that vital to me, and in the case of Reed and Sue I always thought it came off kind of creepy. I don't think playing Sue as being the same age as Reed and Ben, with Johnny being only two years younger at most, breaks the characters. If anything, it removes the sketchy 1950s paternalistic vibe that hasn't been relevant to the comics for a long time.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

True. But to me, the relative ages of the characters aren't that important. Like I said, the age gap between the two halves of the team never felt that vital to me, and in the case of Reed and Sue I always thought it came off kind of creepy. I don't think playing Sue as being the same age as Reed and Ben, with Johnny being only two years younger at most, breaks the characters. If anything, it removes the sketchy 1950s paternalistic vibe that hasn't been relevant to the comics for a long time.

I agree that Sue should be a little older to avoid the creep factor, but I'd make her mid-twenties, Reed and Ben early to mid-thirties and Johnny eighteen (though he could be a little older to match more recent stories). There is a traditional dynamic with Reed and Ben as older contemporaries and Johnny as 'the kid' that is a key, defining characteristic of the team. Without their relative ages being somewhat consistent with that tradition, they won't be the Fantastic Four.

 

[Dark Raven]

What if, in this movie, Sue is older than Reed and she is also the immature (or at least wayward) sibling and Johnny is the responsible one?

 

[Zarex]

True. But to me, the relative ages of the characters aren't that important. Like I said, the age gap between the two halves of the team never felt that vital to me, and in the case of Reed and Sue I always thought it came off kind of creepy. I don't think playing Sue as being the same age as Reed and Ben, with Johnny being only two years younger at most, breaks the characters. If anything, it removes the sketchy 1950s paternalistic vibe that hasn't been relevant to the comics for a long time.

Removal of the 1950s paternalistic vibe within the pages of the comics was what made The World's Greatest Comic Magazine such a great read through the years. Johnny grew up and earned Reed and Ben's respect. Sue gained great powers, and no longer responded when called the Invisible Girl.. Having the four leads approximately the same age removes the creepiness and paternalism and replaces it with.......nothing. It's simply not the FF.