Fant4stic Michael B Jordan is "Flame On!" The Human Torch - Part 2

[Taarna]

SuperT These are terrible examples to try and use. If a sports team moves to a different state, unless they do major trades, it's still the same sports team. Same for the restaurant example - if they change the menu doesn't mean it's isn't the same restaurant, the new menu could actually be better than the original.

Either way, both of those examples make no sense.

They make plenty of sense. Who's your favorite hero in real life or fiction? What if his/her race or gender was changed for a movie, would you be happy?

An honest reply would illustrate my point

Changing a characters ethnicity, especially one where their race places absolutely zero role in their characterization, is not changing who they are or what they stood for - AT ALL.

So are you telling me your 100% certain this new movie Human Torch will act the same and have the same interests as Marvell comic's Johnny Storm?

Are you saying Johnny being white was the only reason he attracted you as a character. You can't be attached or connect with a Johnny Storm that may happen to be black, even though it's the exact same characterization.

No, but he's the character I've known and liked for 30+ years. We'll see how the movie explains it. Do you think a white guy should play Power Man or the Black Panther and if they did, would you be okay with it? I'll say no, but you can reply.

Of course it's 2015 and people are going out of their way to force diversity because it's 2015 and we still don't have any. At some point, minority groups are going to push back and I can only guess it's going to get harder for large corporations further down the line to ignore it. Minority groups as a whole have tremendous buying and viewing power that could dwarf that of the majority in the very near future.

The African American community is about 12.6% according to the census and trending slightly downward as a percentage of the USA population. It was 20% in 1970, and 17% in 1980. Those born in the 1970's and 1980's are the groups that have the most children today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American

If you are suggesting African Americans will be more likely to buy a ticket to see the movie because the Human Torch is black, than isn't that a tad racy?

Look at things like Scandal, and most recently, Empire. That show keeps going week by week by week. Even faster than most critically acclaimed, award winning shows fronted by white casts. Wonder why? Because people want to see themselves reflected in media. We want are stories told and our lives validated as well, just like white people do.

Rejected by the media? I think your over stating it a bit.

Of course, it's far more egregious to change a minority character into a Caucasian than it is the other way because there's already a limited amount of minority characters to play with in the first place.

That would be double standard.

 

[Flint Marko]

If someone grew up loving a character, it makes sense that they would not be open to change. Trying to tell someone they are wrong for being perturbed at this is silly.
I personally have no strong affection for Johnny Storm either way, but if they made Peter Parker anything but a brown-haired white guy in the next movie I would be very upset, and that's understandable.

 

[SuperT]

They make plenty of sense. Who's your favorite hero in real life or fiction? What if his/her race or gender was changed for a movie, would you be happy?

An honest reply would illustrate my point

Okay - my favorite superhero is Storm. Knowing that, it illustrates why this type of thinking is a false equivalent. Changing Storm into a white woman would be a radical change to her ENTIRE characterization. Her being African-American is intrinsically tied to her character. Same for Black Panther, Luke Cage, the current Ms Marvel and many other minority superheroes.

Johnny Storm and Peter Parker being white plays absolutely zero part in their characterization and story outside of just that's what they look like. If their entire characterization stayed 100% the same and the only thing that changed was their skin color and you have issues connecting with them after that than yea, that's your issue not mine. I'll connect with him just like I've connected with the white version.

So are you telling me your 100% certain this new movie Human Torch will act the same and have the same interests as Marvell comic's Johnny Storm?

There's nothing to say that he won't....

No, but he's the character I've known and liked for 30+ years. We'll see how the movie explains it. Do you think a white guy should play Power Man or the Black Panther and if they did, would you be okay with it? I'll say no, but you can reply.

No, I wouldn't be okay with it and I already explained up top why the two situations are not equivalent.

If you are suggesting African Americans will be more likely to buy a ticket to see the movie because the Human Torch is black, than isn't that a tad racy?

It's not racy and I don't have to suggest it because it's happening as clear as day. Like I said, look at the major success of shows like Scandal, Empire, Black-ish, Fresh Off the Boat, Jane the Virgin, How to Get Away With Murder? Movies like Beyond the Lights, Selma, End of Watch (a couple years back), The Book of Life, The Fast and the Furious series, a couple more I'm sure I'm forgetting.

These televisions shows and movies are or were heavily supported by minorities because they either solely focus on them or they included heavily diverse casts with minorities in key roles.

So it's "racy" to say that minorities are more inclined to support minority based projects but it's not racy to say that Caucasians heavily support Caucasian centric projects on the regular?

 

[Taarna]

Okay - my favorite superhero is Storm. Knowing that, it illustrates why this type of thinking is a false equivalent. Changing Storm into a white woman would be a radical change to her ENTIRE characterization. Her being African-American is intrinsically tied to her character. Same for Black Panther, Luke Cage, the current Ms Marvel and many other minority superheroes.

Johnny Storm and Peter Parker being white plays absolutely zero part in their characterization and story outside of just "that's what they look like."



There's nothing to say that he won't....



No, I wouldn't be okay with it and I already explained up top why the two situations are not equivalent.




It's not racy and I don't have to suggest it because it's happening as clear as day. Like I said, look at the major success of shows like Scandal, Empire, Black-ish, Fresh Off the Boat, Jane the Virgin, How to Get Away With Murder? Movies like Beyond the Lights, Selma, End of Watch (a couple years back), The Book of Life, The Fast and the Furious series, a couple more I'm sure I'm forgetting.

These televisions shows and movies are or were heavily supported by minorities because they either solely focus on them or they included heavily diverse casts with minorities in key roles.

So it's "racy" to say that minorities are more inclined to support minority based projects but it's not racy to say that Caucasians heavily support Caucasian centric projects on the regular?

I agree 90% of what you wrote.

 

[Taarna]

If someone grew up loving a character, it makes sense that they would not be open to change. Trying to tell someone they are wrong for being perturbed at this is silly.
I personally have no strong affection for Johnny Storm either way, but if they made Peter Parker anything but a brown-haired white guy in the next movie I would be very upset, and that's understandable.

I think he should be Asian for the next film as Marvel has even few hero's from this ethnicity.

Just kidding. But your right. If you grew up loving a character, you are more sensitive to change.

For example I have no qualms at all about Nick Fury being black in the films. Big Samuel L fan here.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Apparently, being white is the absence of characterization because white people have no personalities, history or culture.

 

[SuperT]

The bottom line is that it comes down to creativity and the fact of the matter is that we're not going to get diverse movies because the creative teams such as writers, producers, directors, production planners etc. behind all of these franchises and studios aren't diverse themselves.

You can't expect a room full of thirty-something white men to fully understand and write from the perspective of an African male, a hispanic female or an Asian or Indian character. Or at least, you can't expect the writing to have any nuance or actually be somewhat realistic.

Not going to happen until they start hiring more diverse creative teams.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I happen to think Jackson is pretty awesome as his version of Nick Fury but he's not the same character as white Nick Fury from the comics. They are two distinct characters. We will almost certainly never see the hard-nosed, cigar munching, WWII veteran Nick Fury on the big screen.

 

[Flint Marko]

The bottom line is that it comes down to creativity and the fact of the matter is that we're not going to get diverse movies because the creative teams such as writers, producers, directors, production planners etc. behind all of these franchises and studios aren't diverse themselves.

You can't expect a room full of thirty-something white men to fully understand and write from the perspective of an African male, a hispanic female or an Asian or Indian character. Or at least, you can't expect the writing to have any nuance or actually be somewhat realistic.

Not going to happen until they start hiring more diverse creative teams.

Something I rarely see addressed is that, in regards to superhero movies, these characters were created back in the 60's when white heroes were thought to be the only bankable option. People can give Marvel crap all day about how little diversity they've had in their movies, and to an extent I will agree with that, but all they are doing is creating films based on the big characters they have access too, the majority of which are white males. I see that as less of a problem with hollywood and more of a problem with how the country was around 50 years ago. I don't disagree with your assertion above, but I think it's worth pointing out that this genre is so white-washed because of the time in which it was created.
And to further expound upon that, I don't think the answer is to start changing around character's skin color just for the sake of it - start bringing the minority heroes to the forefront. We are beginning to see that with Luke Cage, Black Panther, etc.

 

[pavlov]

Apparently, being white is the absence of characterization because white people have no personalities, history or culture.

Tell me more about white american culture.

 

[cronosred]

If people are supposed to happily accept the Storms being changed to adopted siblings to accommodate a race change then they should be just as happy if a character like Black Panthor was adopted to also accommodate for a race change. You know 2015, mixed families, diversity and all that.

 

[Flint Marko]

Okay - my favorite superhero is Storm. Knowing that, it illustrates why this type of thinking is a false equivalent. Changing Storm into a white woman would be a radical change to her ENTIRE characterization. Her being African-American is intrinsically tied to her character. Same for Black Panther, Luke Cage, the current Ms Marvel and many other minority superheroes.

Couldn't you theoretically change Storm and Black Panther to be from isolated tribes in the amazon? Wouldn't that work almost as well for said characters?

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Tell me more about white american culture.

Don't you know? There isn't any. Being white is the absence of culture. I thought we established that.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Couldn't you theoretically change Storm and Black Panther to be from isolated tribes in the amazon? Wouldn't that work almost as well for said characters?

It's all fair game. You know - unless it isn't.

 

[SuperT]

Couldn't you theoretically change Storm and Black Panther to be from isolated tribes in the amazon? Wouldn't that work almost as well for said characters?

Amazonian/South American culture and the way it relates and is viewed across the world is VASTLY different from African culture. That would be a radical change to both of those characters to the point where they wouldn't even be Storm and BP anymore.

The thing is with Johnny and Sue this all you need of them:
- Are they brother and sister? (check)
- Is their father Dr. Franklin Storm? (check)
- Is Sue a capable female scientist with force field and invisibility powers that's in love with Reed Richards? (check)
- Is Johnny the incredibly good looking, immature, impulsive, womanizer with pyrokinetic powers? (check)
- They both get their powers from an incredibly awful scientific accident? (check)
- Do they both come together with Reed and Ben to form the Fantastic 4, a group of mostly unrelated friends that turn into their own unique family? (check)
- They both battle Dr. Doom (check)

Everything else after that is just extra - that is the core of those characters. How they're related family-wise in this incarnation is meaningless if all the points above are true. The only radical change I see in this movie is to Doctor Doom but even still with that one, they have the opportunity to steer him back to being the ruler of Latveria.

With the example above you remove every single thing that makes Black Panther and Storm the characters that they are.

 

[pavlov]

If people are supposed to happily accept the Storms being changed to adopted siblings to accommodate a race change then they should be just as happy if a character like Black Panthor was adopted to also accommodate for a race change. You know 2015, mixed families, diversity and all that.

It doesn't work both ways. Seriously, you don't see the flaw in your arguement?

 

[cronosred]

Amazonian/South American culture and the way it relates and is viewed across the world is VASTLY different from African culture. That would be a radical change to both of those characters to the point where they wouldn't even be Storm and BP anymore.

The thing is with Johnny and Sue this all you need of them:
- Are they brother and sister? (check)
- Is their father Dr. Franklin Storm? (check)
- Is Sue a capable female scientist with force field and invisibility powers that's in love with Reed Richards? (check)
- Is Johnny the incredibly good looking, immature, impulsive, womanizer with pyrokinetic powers? (check)
- They both get their powers from an incredibly awful scientific accident? (check)
- Do they both come together with Reed and Ben to form the Fantastic 4, a group of mostly unrelated friends that turn into their own unique family? (check)
- They both battle Dr. Doom (check)

Everything else after that is just extra - that is the core of those characters. How they're related family-wise in this incarnation is meaningless if all the points above are true. The only radical change I see in this movie is to Doctor Doom but even still with that one, they have the opportunity to steer him back to being the ruler of Latveria.

With the example above you remove every single thing that makes Black Panther and Storm the characters that they are.

That's why you just make them adopted, because it wouldn't really change the characters.

 

[Flint Marko]

Amazonian/South American culture and the way it relates and is viewed across the world is VASTLY different from African culture. That would be a radical change to both of those characters to the point where they wouldn't even be Storm and BP anymore.

How so? You say they are different and it would radically change the character, but you just leave it at that. Give me examples, give me specifics of how nothing about Storm or BP would work if you substituted a South American jungle for an Africa one. I'm playing devils advocate because I actually don't know much about Storm or BP, I just want to know why those two characters are always brought up in situations and examples like this. What is so uniquely African about them as characters?

 

[cronosred]

It doesn't work both ways. Seriously, you don't see the flaw in your arguement?

No. Fictional characters can be changed, right?

 

[Kelly]

They tried their hardest especially in the sequel. I still remember how shocked people were when they saw the first photos of her in the wig, make-up, and of course the contacts.

People I know were shocked in the 2nd one because they thought she looked great in the first one, and they wondered what the hell happened to the hair and makeup people.

 

[Kelly]

Guys please refrain from posting gifs as your reply. Unless they pertain to the topic of the thread there is really no need for them, and for those reading from phones it makes it a very slow go sometimes to wait for them to upload.

 

[cronosred]

People I know were shocked in the 2nd one because they thought she looked great in the first one, and they wondered what the hell happened to the hair and makeup people.

She did look good in the first film but the second one I remember people comparing her to the White Chicks movie make-up.

 

[Kelly]

She did look good in the first film but the second one I remember people comparing her to the White Chicks movie make-up.

The airport scene was the scene that had those comparisons going. It was scary...

 

[pavlov]

No. Fictional characters can be changed, right?

Technically nobody's stopping the studios from white-washing all minorities in films. It can be done but it will be of bad taste and backwards.

Minorities are alreadyunder-represented in films like these. Case in point: Avengers and MCU films where minorities mostly play supporting characters to white leading men.

The reason why it's okay for a black man to play Johnny is because the character is the archetype of a modren, cool, jock-type American male, which could be played by any American regardless of ethnicity.

If Johnny were let's say the son of Chinese immigrants, whose characterization heavily revolves around his heritage, then it would be weird to cast a white man in that role.

Just look at the Last Airbender movie where obviously Asian or Inuit characters were turned white.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Guys please refrain from posting gifs as your reply. Unless they pertain to the topic of the thread there is really no need for them, and for those reading from phones it makes it a very slow go sometimes to wait for them to upload.

Ah. Okey dokey.