Michael Bay's "Transformers" Vs. The Fantastic Four (merged 2)

[Malus]

Yes but i am also counting people who read the comic books as a child and have since stopped as fans that would go and see it. And there are a lot of them, especially here in England. I'm sure there are quite a few in the U.S as well. And though they can no longer be considered comic book readers, they were once and many of those people went to see the movie.

I said: "A multi-generational presence of fans (as I'm sure was the case) probably made up a very small percentage of moviegoers. Far fewer than Spider-man or Batman, who had/have far more 'face value.'"

Look, let's say the FF comic had 200,000 readers in 1961, and that readership has completely "turned over" every 5 years since then. Now let's say every single one of these readers, past and present, paid to see FF during its run in theaters. We'd be talking about a little under two million people (about 1 million, 800 thousand). Now I'd call that a very generous estimate, as FF hasn't sold anything close to 200,000 since the late-seventies. So- if they all paid full ticket price (say a metropolitan ticket price of $10) that would account for less than 20 million out of, what, 330 million?
And that would be about...7 percent of the total box office.

All I'm saying is that comics readers (past and present) didn't make the FF movie (or any comics-related movie, for that matter) a success.
The general public (of which we constitute far less than 1%) made the movie a success.
Because there truly aren't enough of us to really matter. When you're hanging around the local comic shop, it may feel like there's lots of other comics fans, but if I went into the nearest Best Buy or Red Lobster and took a poll (assuming I wasn't asked to leave ) I guarandamntee you that less than 2% of the people there would identify themselves as comics readers.

God, I feel lonely now.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I said: "A multi-generational presence of fans (as I'm sure was the case) probably made up a very small percentage of moviegoers. Far fewer than Spider-man or Batman, who had/have far more 'face value.'"

Look, let's say the FF comic had 200,000 readers in 1961, and that readership has completely "turned over" every 5 years since then. Now let's say every single one of these readers, past and present, paid to see FF during its run in theaters. We'd be talking about a little under two million people (about 1 million, 800 thousand). Now I'd call that a very generous estimate, as FF hasn't sold anything close to 200,000 since the late-seventies. So- if they all paid full ticket price (say a metropolitan ticket price of $10) that would account for less than 20 million out of, what, 330 million?
And that would be about...7 percent of the total box office.

All I'm saying is that comics readers (past and present) didn't make the FF movie (or any comics-related movie, for that matter) a success.
The general public (of which we constitute far less than 1%) made the movie a success.
Because there truly aren't enough of us to really matter. When you're hanging around the local comic shop, it may feel like there's lots of other comics fans, but if I went into the nearest Best Buy or Red Lobster and took a poll (assuming I wasn't asked to leave ) I guarandamntee you that less than 2% of the people there would identify themselves as comics readers.

God, I feel lonely now.

And then you have to count people who like the genre in general, like me. I have never read a comic book in my life, well, maybe one or two, but i love the genre and type of movie that comic books create. So i am interested in and go a see 95% of CB movies that come out. There are others like me.

 

[liesse00]

I have never read a comic in my life but I really like the comic book movies, so I would be one of those people.

 

[Kelly]

I have never read a comic in my life but I really like the comic book movies, so I would be one of those people.

Me too, except that since last year i've kept up with all 3 of the F4 comic books, and now my kids in class read them when they are done w/ work etc....BUT yes liesse you and i are the vast, vast majority of people that are watching these movies and making them successful.

 

[Kelly]

And then you have to count people who like the genre in general, like me. I have never read a comic book in my life, well, maybe one or two, but i love the genre and type of movie that comic books create. So i am interested in and go a see 95% of CB movies that come out. There are others like me.

But Ave, those that like it in general are the general audience...like yourself....and thats the group we are saying make these movies successful....and they are the huge majority of moviegoers...and then people like my sister and brother n law that like movies in general....BUT those people make up far more than the maybe 60% that you gave them in the Box Office. Malus gave you a pretty good breakdown....and even putting in numbers for old fans of the comic that no longer read them, theres just no way that group brought in $150 million of a $330 million BO....20 million maybe....big maybe....but i don't think so...

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

But i DO think so

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

 

[Kelly]

But i DO think so

150 million of 330 million from comic book fans alone?????


ok.......

 

[Malus]

Recently there was some discussion in this thread concerning how much of the $330 million success of FF1 could be attributed to pre-existing fans of the comic. Basically, I said "Probably not that much, considering the comic is read by little more than 100,000 readers these days."
There was a fair amount of disbelief greeting those figures.
Well...
I was just referred to a site with current, reliable sales figures, and it was my turn to be disbelieving. This is a link to a page of archived sales charts extrapolated from Diamond Distributors' monthly rankings:
http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695
The most current month is February, 2006.
And that's where I read that Fantastic Four currently sells less than 45,000. Newsstand and bookstore sales don't add much to that figure, nor do re-orders.
I'm stunned, frankly.

The sales on many popular titles (and perhaps comics in general) appear to have been plummeting for over 8 years now. The February issue of Batman, by the way, sold just 66,400.
No, today's comics readers cannot be contributing that much to box office. Not unless they're seeing the films 40 or 50 times at the theater.

 

[Advanced Dark]

There's a poll on the main Superherohype page. Vote now!

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Recently there was some discussion in this thread concerning how much of the $330 million success of FF1 could be attributed to pre-existing fans of the comic. Basically, I said "Probably not that much, considering the comic is read by little more than 100,000 readers these days."
There was a fair amount of disbelief greeting those figures.
Well...
I was just referred to a site with current, reliable sales figures, and it was my turn to be disbelieving. This is a link to a page of archived sales charts extrapolated from Diamond Distributors' monthly rankings:
http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695
The most current month is February, 2006.
And that's where I read that Fantastic Four currently sells less than 45,000. Newsstand and bookstore sales don't add much to that figure, nor do re-orders.
I'm stunned, frankly.

The sales on many popular titles (and perhaps comics in general) appear to have been plummeting for over 8 years now. The February issue of Batman, by the way, sold just 66,400.
No, today's comics readers cannot be contributing that much to box office. Not unless they're seeing the films 40 or 50 times at the theater.

Yeah, i had the same shocking re-awakening several years back when i saw the amount of readers that the Batman book had. At the time, Batman, literally a world-wide icon, was selling about 50,000 issues a month.

Sales figures for comics have slowly improved over the past few years, due mostly i guess from the movies, but no where NEAR to what they were selling in their heyday.

Kids just have no interest in comics anymore, what with computers, ipods, and whatever, and american adults generally tend to be too embarassed to be seen reading them for some reason.

Use this very forum as an example; There's a butt-load of people who post on the FF movie forum on a regular basis, but less than a dozen of us posting regularly on the FF comics forum.

It's sad to say, but we may see the end of a cultural tradition in our life times.

 

[Malus]

It's sad to say, but we may see the end of a cultural tradition in our life times.

I think the direct market (distribution almost exclusively through comic shops) has only expedited the process. Because eventually comics disappeared from everywhere else.
When comics can no longer be found in drug stores, grocery & convenience stores, even book stores...then they may as well not exist as far as 99% of the public is concerned.
Average folks do not go in comic shops. Women certainly avoid them (usually with good reason) and even my 8 year old daughter absolutely loathes accompanying me on my visits to "that creepy comicbook store."
And she's right. Most of these places are poorly lit, badly organized and dusty....and most of them have no product to offer smaller children and almost nothing to interest most adults.
There have been many great works produced in the medium over the past 20 years: Watchmen, Maus, Dark Knight Returns, Blankets, From Hell, etc. ...but most comic shops don't keep these books available, or even offer to order them. My particular comic shop doesn't even stock trade paperbacks. Not one.
I know there are some wonderful comic shops out there, but they are SO in the minority that it's tragic.

I don't know what it will take to save comics from oblivion, but the present system of marketing and distribution just ain't cuttin' it.

 

[Advanced Dark]

^ Marvel just started last year distributing them in 7-11's, Walgreen, and a few other stores. I think Walmart/Target are next up.

 

[Malus]

^ Marvel just started last year distributing them in 7-11's, Walgreen, and a few other stores. I think Walmart/Target are next up.

Well they better hurry it along. My local Walgreens stocks only Marvel Adventures Spider-man. That's it. And it's on the bottom shelf with Nick Magazine and the like.
There's not a 7-11 around here, but I'll keep an eye out at Target.

But here again, we're only seeing one publisher -a publisher of almost exclusively superhero comics- taking any action. And that's not going to be enough. The public has to be offered more than superhero comics or they won't bite. You could have 10 copies of the top 20 Marvel books in every Wal-Mart & Target in the country, and what you'll end up seeing is massive returns, printing costs that can't be met, etc...

Personally, I wish we could see spinner racks make a comeback. Racks that feature Marvel, DC, Archie, Disney...and maybe a few anthology titles featuring some of the more sophisticated material aimed at adults (not the T&A stuff; I'm talking about the more literary material we see coming from publishers like Top Shelf) with everyone cooperating in cross-company advertising that would direct consumers to a really nice website for paperback collections and graphic novels...
Yeah. Yeah, I know that probably won't happen, but I can wish.
I feel that diversity is the main element missing from comics today, and we have to do more than put superheroes alone in front of the public.
I don't think superheroes can save the day this time.

The stigma comics have suffered for over 50 years (since the E.C. hearings) is still there in peoples' minds. People still think comics are for illiterates, they really do. Which is both ignorant and tragic, since comics are probably the greatest underused reading education tool that exists.

Again, I don't know what the answer is.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Movies like The 40 year Old Virgin, while highly entertaining, are not helping comics in the least as well.

If anything, they tend to further the "loser/nerd" stereotype most often associated with fans of comics.

Regardless; i hear that trade paperbacks are doing very well. Spider-Girl, for example, a comic that constantly teeters on the edge of cancellation, is, according to Marvel's Joe Quesada, doing "X-Men like numbers" in trade sales.

Who knows? Maybe THAT'S the future of comic books.

 

[Malus]

Regardless; i hear that trade paperbacks are doing very well. Spider-Girl, for example, a comic that constantly teeters on the edge of cancellation, is, according to Marvel's Joe Quesada, doing "X-Men like numbers" in trade sales.

Who knows? Maybe THAT'S the future of comic books.

I think you're right, Captain.
The trick is getting the major chain bookstores to properly categorize and display graphic novels and trades.

And just to offer a bit of hope: USA Today reported this week that comics sales were up 5% in 2005.

 

[Kelly]

Well i am now a fan of F4 comics....and i'm definitely no 40 year old virgin...*smiles*

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Well i am now a fan of F4 comics....and i'm definitely no 40 year old virgin...*smiles*

oooh, i LOVE it when you talk dirty! (kidding)

I know you read Marvel Knights Kel, have you been reading the regular FF book as well, or The Thing book?

Both have been pretty good lately.

 

[Kelly]

oooh, i LOVE it when you talk dirty! (kidding)

I know you read Marvel Knights Kel, have you been reading the regular FF book as well, or The Thing book?

Both have been pretty good lately.

i stay alittle behind everyone because i usually wait for TPB's....yes i've been reading the regs, MK, Uff and just picked up a couple of Adventures....haven't read any essentials...but yes my fav is MK.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

i stay alittle behind everyone because i usually wait for TPB's....yes i've been reading the regs, MK, Uff and just picked up a couple of Adventures....haven't read any essentials...but yes my fav is MK.

MK has been awesome the past two years or so. Unfortunately, next month is the final issue. (The weiter has moved over to Sensational Spider-Man).

You might want to pick up the Civil War mini series as well. The first issue (of seven) just came out this week, and the FF all have big roles in it.

 

[Kelly]

MK has been awesome the past two years or so. Unfortunately, next month is the final issue. (The weiter has moved over to Sensational Spider-Man).

You might want to pick up the Civil War mini series as well. The first issue (of seven) just came out this week, and the FF all have big roles in it.

Yeah i saw that....i'm going tomorrow to the bookstore so i'll see what they have...

 

[Agent 194]

I don't know why we should worry about Michael Bay. Isn't he the guy who makes bad movies that the South Park guys immortalized in song?

 

[MJB]

Is this thread even worth discussing. We all know which is going to make more money and be a better film. Yeah it's going to be the Auto-bots. The F4 has a chance to be a high grossing and good film, but as long as that property stays in the hands of Fox it's going to be done rushed and half assed.

 

[Malus]

Is this thread even worth discussing. We all know which is going to make more money and be a better film. Yeah it's going to be the Auto-bots. The F4 has a chance to be a high grossing and good film, but as long as that property stays in the hands of Fox it's going to be done rushed and half assed.

Uh...We don't all "know" anything of the kind.
While, in my opinion, FF1 did pretty much suck and it could have been so much more. BUT-I haven't seen a single second of Transformers footage (has anyone?) so I can't really have even a semi-informed opinion of how it's going to shake out at this point.

Anything cool can be ruined by translation to film. Transformers is no exception.

If the trailer comes out and looks like a blast, I'll be the first one to say "uh oh."
(And at the same time, be glad I've got a giant robot movie to look forward to seeing with my little boy.)

 

[MJB]

Uh...We don't all "know" anything of the kind.
While, in my opinion, FF1 did pretty much suck and it could have been so much more. BUT-I haven't seen a single second of Transformers footage (has anyone?) so I can't really have even a semi-informed opinion of how it's going to shake out at this point.

Anything cool can be ruined by translation to film. Transformers is no exception.

If the trailer comes out and looks like a blast, I'll be the first one to say "uh oh."
(And at the same time, be glad I've got a giant robot movie to look forward to seeing with my little boy.)

True very true, but Bay will deliver. The story may be weak, but the action and fx are going to rock. Giant transforming robots. That's never been on the big screen and it's freash in a way. The kids are going to love it. Can f4 compete with the Transformers?? Hell yes, just not coming from Fox.