Mighty Avengers returns in Infinity.

[alexnyc]

Even though Spider-Man and Wolverine are Avengers I don't think I will ever get used to them being Avengers.

Spidey is cool but i feel that he shouldn't be consider an avenger as for wolverine yes cause he's that tuff guy that should be put along side the rest of the pack.

 

[runawayboulder]

Spider-Man and Wolverine have been Avengers for nearly a decade now and neither one has had a big moment as members. The closest we have got was Spider-Man's tact in taking down the Phoenix'ed up Colossus and Magik during AvX and since that was a forgettable event in itself it will probably never be remembered as time passes.

 

[bored]

Getting way too clogged with Avengers teams, but Monica Rambeau's back, and field-leader again, so yeah, I'll be reading it.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Spidey is cool but i feel that he shouldn't be consider an avenger as for wolverine yes cause he's that tuff guy that should be put along side the rest of the pack.

Wait a minute, you're far more accepting of Wolverine as an Avenger over Spider-Man? Spider-Man's Avengers credentials are far more plausible than freaking Wolverine's!

 

[runawayboulder]

There's two kinds of Wolverine's that exist at Marvel right now. The fanboy version which has been seen in Avengers and all the big events and the classic Claremont-esque version that has been seen in Aaron's solo series run/WATXM and Uncanny X-Force.

One has no business being on the Avengers and the other is a perfect fit. I wish they would all get on the same page with him. The current arc of Uncanny Avengers looks like a pivotal moment in a culmination of some of the more interesting stuff we've seen from the character over the past few years.

 

[DarKush]

They had a black writer on the recent Mister Terrific 52 comic sucked sadly. I don't have a problem supporting black or minority writers if what they write is actually good.

I understand what you are saying. I thought Eric Wallace did a much better job with Ink/Tattooed Man and on his Titans run than he did with Mr. Terrific. But I do think the quality charge if often attached to black writers, adding another burden right out the gate that many white writers don't have to deal with.

It's almost like there is a presumption that if a black person does something, the competency and quality are more suspect. And with whites that's not as much the case. Also white writers might be given more chances to make mistakes.

Further, if black writers aren't being giving the opportunities to write for the majors how can we actually get an opportunity to support them?

 

[DarKush]

I don't support black writers... or hispanic writers... or asian or female writers. I don't even support white writers.

I support writers.

I honestly feel to pick out a writer's color or sex and make that a topic of conversation is a serious step backwards. Unless it's shown that Marvel or DC are purposely picking out white males and dodging other writers due to sex or color, there is no conversation here other than the HOPE of there being an issue, and that's just silly.

That sounds all well and good, but when you have companies that have nearly all white and mostly male writers it can create an insularity that doesn't benefit the companies overall and might make it difficult to reach out to groups or communities who aren't white or mostly male, ergo taking a whole lot of dollars off the table.

Black and other non-white writers might (and might not, to be fair) be able to bring different experiences and ways of seeing the world into comics that can attract new readers or make old readers see things from a different perspective.

During the time of segregation there was de jure (by law) and de facto (by custom) separation. Just because there isn't a concrete law that says 'no blacks or non-whites' allowed doesn't make it any less pernicious than if it is by custom. And it seems, like at the major companies, there is too much of an old (white) boy network going on. So if they are bringing in people who they feel comfortable around (who 'just happen' to look like them and often share their gender) how is that ultimately shaping and warping the stories?

Now if the sole intended audience is white males who are roughly the same age as the writers that's one thing (and even now that's not the whole truth and there are some white male fans who do want greater diversity), but what happens when that audience dries up or dies off and you need different readers? The majors are not helping themselves by ignoring and/or not actively bringing in writers of color, or at least building bridges with them.

And to make clear, there are times I do support black writers. Because they aren't getting the opportunities a lot of times that white writers get and I want to do my little part to keep them going because their voices are important and shouldn't be shut out. Your declaration that you don't support white writers sounds facetious to me in a discussion (which you waded into) where we are discussing the lack of non-white writers at the major companies. Of course you are supporting white writers. So am I when I pick up many Marvel and DC books for that matter. If blacks or other non-whites are not on major company books how can you just say that race or gender don't matter? If there is a figurative (maybe literal) whiteout at the major companies, how can you just 'support writers'? Too many other writers of color aren't being given the opportunities for this to be a color blind or non-racial issue.

Lastly, I don't think picking out a writers color or gender is a step backward. How are we to correct racial or gender discrimination if we don't accurately look at continuing disparities? I think it's actually a step backward to believe that we shouldn't look at those things, to pretend that we live in a racial/gender utopia and that mentioning race or gender equates to racism or sexism. Not talking about race or racial prejudice hides or obscures the issue under the illusion that it has magically disappeared. But when you look at the history of struggles on both fronts the only reason we got to this point is because people took on those issues head on, they pointed things out, they were flies in the ointment and they eventually made society acknowledge that problems existed and something needed to be done about them. Problems continue to exist and the work to correct them continues.

 

[StreetWarrior]

Wow . Talk about a redundant team. She-Hulk and Cage and Power Man. White Tiger and Ronin. For a title sporting the adjective "Mighty", this teams is surprisingly street-level (aside from Blue Marvel).

Definite pass.

 

[Mad Ones]

Great post, DarKush!

 

[hippie_hunter]

That sounds all well and good, but when you have companies that have nearly all white and mostly male writers it can create an insularity that doesn't benefit the companies overall and might make it difficult to reach out to groups or communities who aren't white or mostly male, ergo taking a whole lot of dollars off the table.

Black and other non-white writers might (and might not, to be fair) be able to bring different experiences and ways of seeing the world into comics that can attract new readers or make old readers see things from a different perspective.

During the time of segregation there was de jure (by law) and de facto (by custom) separation. Just because there isn't a concrete law that says 'no blacks or non-whites' allowed doesn't make it any less pernicious than if it is by custom. And it seems, like at the major companies, there is too much of an old (white) boy network going on. So if they are bringing in people who they feel comfortable around (who 'just happen' to look like them and often share their gender) how is that ultimately shaping and warping the stories?

Now if the sole intended audience is white males who are roughly the same age as the writers that's one thing (and even now that's not the whole truth and there are some white male fans who do want greater diversity), but what happens when that audience dries up or dies off and you need different readers? The majors are not helping themselves by ignoring and/or not actively bringing in writers of color, or at least building bridges with them.

And to make clear, there are times I do support black writers. Because they aren't getting the opportunities a lot of times that white writers get and I want to do my little part to keep them going because their voices are important and shouldn't be shut out. Your declaration that you don't support white writers sounds facetious to me in a discussion (which you waded into) where we are discussing the lack of non-white writers at the major companies. Of course you are supporting white writers. So am I when I pick up many Marvel and DC books for that matter. If blacks or other non-whites are not on major company books how can you just say that race or gender don't matter? If there is a figurative (maybe literal) whiteout at the major companies, how can you just 'support writers'? Too many other writers of color aren't being given the opportunities for this to be a color blind or non-racial issue.

Lastly, I don't think picking out a writers color or gender is a step backward. How are we to correct racial or gender discrimination if we don't accurately look at continuing disparities? I think it's actually a step backward to believe that we shouldn't look at those things, to pretend that we live in a racial/gender utopia and that mentioning race or gender equates to racism or sexism. Not talking about race or racial prejudice hides or obscures the issue under the illusion that it has magically disappeared. But when you look at the history of struggles on both fronts the only reason we got to this point is because people took on those issues head on, they pointed things out, they were flies in the ointment and they eventually made society acknowledge that problems existed and something needed to be done about them. Problems continue to exist and the work to correct them continues.

I would say the biggest problem with diversity in comics is that look at the demographics of the comic book fanbase. It's predominantly white and male. And with most comic book writers being diehard comic book nerds throughout their lives and wanting to be in the comic book industry at a young age, the end result is going to be that comic book writers will be predominantly male and white. Sure there are comic book fans of different genders and races, and if they're talented and want to be comic book writers, they should be hired. But it's an uphill battle to introduce diversity in the field when the field isn't very diverse.

 

[RockSP]

Wow . Talk about a redundant team. She-Hulk and Cage and Power Man. White Tiger and Ronin. For a title sporting the adjective "Mighty", this teams is surprisingly street-level (aside from Blue Marvel).

Definite pass.

I don't see how She-Hulk can be considered street-level. Or Spectrum. Hopefully they will expand on Power Man's ...uh, powers somewhat. One thing that always bugged me about Cage back in the day was he went by the name "Power Man" but was so underpowered, lol.

 

[JewishHobbit]

That sounds all well and good, but when you have companies that have nearly all white and mostly male writers it can create an insularity that doesn't benefit the companies overall and might make it difficult to reach out to groups or communities who aren't white or mostly male, ergo taking a whole lot of dollars off the table.

Black and other non-white writers might (and might not, to be fair) be able to bring different experiences and ways of seeing the world into comics that can attract new readers or make old readers see things from a different perspective.

During the time of segregation there was de jure (by law) and de facto (by custom) separation. Just because there isn't a concrete law that says 'no blacks or non-whites' allowed doesn't make it any less pernicious than if it is by custom. And it seems, like at the major companies, there is too much of an old (white) boy network going on. So if they are bringing in people who they feel comfortable around (who 'just happen' to look like them and often share their gender) how is that ultimately shaping and warping the stories?

Now if the sole intended audience is white males who are roughly the same age as the writers that's one thing (and even now that's not the whole truth and there are some white male fans who do want greater diversity), but what happens when that audience dries up or dies off and you need different readers? The majors are not helping themselves by ignoring and/or not actively bringing in writers of color, or at least building bridges with them.

And to make clear, there are times I do support black writers. Because they aren't getting the opportunities a lot of times that white writers get and I want to do my little part to keep them going because their voices are important and shouldn't be shut out. Your declaration that you don't support white writers sounds facetious to me in a discussion (which you waded into) where we are discussing the lack of non-white writers at the major companies. Of course you are supporting white writers. So am I when I pick up many Marvel and DC books for that matter. If blacks or other non-whites are not on major company books how can you just say that race or gender don't matter? If there is a figurative (maybe literal) whiteout at the major companies, how can you just 'support writers'? Too many other writers of color aren't being given the opportunities for this to be a color blind or non-racial issue.

Lastly, I don't think picking out a writers color or gender is a step backward. How are we to correct racial or gender discrimination if we don't accurately look at continuing disparities? I think it's actually a step backward to believe that we shouldn't look at those things, to pretend that we live in a racial/gender utopia and that mentioning race or gender equates to racism or sexism. Not talking about race or racial prejudice hides or obscures the issue under the illusion that it has magically disappeared. But when you look at the history of struggles on both fronts the only reason we got to this point is because people took on those issues head on, they pointed things out, they were flies in the ointment and they eventually made society acknowledge that problems existed and something needed to be done about them. Problems continue to exist and the work to correct them continues.

If there was concrete proof that Marvel or DC were purposely white walling their talent, then we could talk. But to see a company that's predominately white and jump to the racism conclusion without proof is, in my opinion, just a case of reverse racism and ambitious assumptions. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it just comes across as a silly argument to me.

And claiming I support white writers by buying their books is also ridiculous. I support stories and talent that I enjoy. I'm pretty color blind when it comes to that stuff. I don't even know what half of Marvel's talent looks like, let alone what color they are. Therefore my statement still stands. I do not support black, Hispanic, white, female, or other writers. I simply support writers. If I like what I read, I support them. I don't care one iota about their skin color or whether they have a penis or not. To make that a sex or race thing is the offended party bringing something into the argument that wasn't there until they made it a thing.

But we can agree to disagree and let the conversation pass. It's not relevant to the topic anyhow.

 

[DarKush]

Jewish Hobbit,

I do want to respond to what you've said before I let this go. What is the need for 'concrete' proof when the glaring racial disparities are already apparent. Do you really need a law or an uncovered memo from the Marvel or DC offices to rile you up? Whether it is intentionally that way or not what does that matter ultimately if we still are getting the same kind of outcomes if there are is no law on the books, as it were?

When you have institutions built in a time of legal racial discrimination and segregation-which both Marvel and DC were-and they had a majority or nearly all white staffs, I do think it perfectly legit to consider the 'racism conclusion'.

I doubt their are many ill intentions from many in Marvel and DC, but if the networks that are used to gain access to both companies remain majority white the end result has been the same, even if there is no one nailing a "Non-Whites Need Not Apply" above the door. Heck, I would say the same for newer companies built as well. Racism is still a problem in this country. And racism isn't just the KKK. There's the very blatant kind of stuff that many at least claim they abhor but also the institutional stuff (and it can often be linked to class or other issues) that is harder to see, just because many of us have been attuned to see a racist as someone hurling racial slurs or engaging in violent biased actions.

I don't buy the idea of reverse racism. Are some blacks or other non-whites biased against whites or each other? Yes. But in this country only white people have the power to act on their biases and there is a documented history of that.

To get to that period blacks, for example, where 'reverse racism' is even feasible, they would have to amass power greater than the white majority and that has not happened, and never will, in this country. Further blacks would then have to be able to use said power to enforce laws that are hostile to white aspirations, and that will never happen either.

I think this idea of reverse racism only works if you believe that blacks and whites are completely equal (not equality before the law) but in terms of wealth, political power, education, etc. And that is not the case. Last I checked, the average white household has twenty times the wealth of the average black household. The black community has been devastated by unequal policing in a way that will not happen to the white community and on and on.

You are supporting white writers whether you check their skin color or not because they are the ones who are primarily getting access, the ones who are getting to write many of the comic book stories we read. I think we need more voices and I am a believer in actively supporting diverse voices because waiting on the goodwill of people who don't know or care to know about racial disparities in the comics industry or elsewhere isn't going to cut it.

 

[DarKush]

I would say the biggest problem with diversity in comics is that look at the demographics of the comic book fanbase. It's predominantly white and male. And with most comic book writers being diehard comic book nerds throughout their lives and wanting to be in the comic book industry at a young age, the end result is going to be that comic book writers will be predominantly male and white. Sure there are comic book fans of different genders and races, and if they're talented and want to be comic book writers, they should be hired. But it's an uphill battle to introduce diversity in the field when the field isn't very diverse.

I agree with a lot of what you said here. I have to wonder if there is a perception of the average comic book fan as being white and male that is now being eroded as more people (of both genders and all colors) are coming out of the comics closet, are reading comics and getting into comics in some form or fashion. Plus I would argue that there have been underserved communities for quite some time and while white comic book creators have been focused on squeezing out as many dollars as they can from white male fans they've ignored a lot of people outside that demographic to the industry's peril.

Further I think that diverse voices and characters aren't just for diverse audiences they should be for white male readers too. The vast majority of characters and subsequently creators over the years that I've read have been white. I can identity with many white characters and have enjoyed many stories. I don't see why white male fans can't do the same with creators or characters of color. I think it's something that can be beneficial, to step outside of yourself, your comfort zone and walk in another person's shoes-even if figuratively, and to see how someone else might view the world differently from you. It might piss you off, it might challenge you at points-then again it might not.

Ultimately some of the recalcitrant might learn that they have little to nothing to fear and also that they might be missing out on some great creators, characters, and stories.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Jewish Hobbit,

I do want to respond to what you've said before I let this go. What is the need for 'concrete' proof when the glaring racial disparities are already apparent. Do you really need a law or an uncovered memo from the Marvel or DC offices to rile you up? Whether it is intentionally that way or not what does that matter ultimately if we still are getting the same kind of outcomes if there are is no law on the books, as it were?

When you have institutions built in a time of legal racial discrimination and segregation-which both Marvel and DC were-and they had a majority or nearly all white staffs, I do think it perfectly legit to consider the 'racism conclusion'.

I doubt their are many ill intentions from many in Marvel and DC, but if the networks that are used to gain access to both companies remain majority white the end result has been the same, even if there is no one nailing a "Non-Whites Need Not Apply" above the door. Heck, I would say the same for newer companies built as well. Racism is still a problem in this country. And racism isn't just the KKK. There's the very blatant kind of stuff that many at least claim they abhor but also the institutional stuff (and it can often be linked to class or other issues) that is harder to see, just because many of us have been attuned to see a racist as someone hurling racial slurs or engaging in violent biased actions.

I don't buy the idea of reverse racism. Are some blacks or other non-whites biased against whites or each other? Yes. But in this country only white people have the power to act on their biases and there is a documented history of that.

To get to that period blacks, for example, where 'reverse racism' is even feasible, they would have to amass power greater than the white majority and that has not happened, and never will, in this country. Further blacks would then have to be able to use said power to enforce laws that are hostile to white aspirations, and that will never happen either.

I think this idea of reverse racism only works if you believe that blacks and whites are completely equal (not equality before the law) but in terms of wealth, political power, education, etc. And that is not the case. Last I checked, the average white household has twenty times the wealth of the average black household. The black community has been devastated by unequal policing in a way that will not happen to the white community and on and on.

You are supporting white writers whether you check their skin color or not because they are the ones who are primarily getting access, the ones who are getting to write many of the comic book stories we read. I think we need more voices and I am a believer in actively supporting diverse voices because waiting on the goodwill of people who don't know or care to know about racial disparities in the comics industry or elsewhere isn't going to cut it.

I have things I would like to say to this because I honestly don't agree with you, but I don't want this to break into some sort of misguided racism argument. This isn't the thread for it and I honestly don't care enough to keep it going. No offense to you, as you are entitled to your opinion, but I'm just not getting pulled into something like that.

 

[Hypestyle]

I want there to be lots of violent combat. Fists to face, boots to...

The team should be taking on major threats; sprinkle in some of the more esoteric villains that some of the individual heroes started off with, but if they can't be majorly upgraded, then yet another go-round with Cockroach Hamilton, Shades & Comanche isn't worth it..

PS- Monica should be taking on starships head-on..

No talking-head issues, please. I already want the live-action movie.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I agree with a lot of what you said here. I have to wonder if there is a perception of the average comic book fan as being white and male that is now being eroded as more people (of both genders and all colors) are coming out of the comics closet, are reading comics and getting into comics in some form or fashion. Plus I would argue that there have been underserved communities for quite some time and while white comic book creators have been focused on squeezing out as many dollars as they can from white male fans they've ignored a lot of people outside that demographic to the industry's peril.

I don't think that there is a comics closet. I think it's just flat out fact that the overwhelming majority of comic book fans are white males. I have never come across anyone who isn't white in a comic book store, even in the ones I visited in New York City. And I've been collecting comics for almost a decade now. Now I'm not saying that there is no such thing as black or Latino comic book fans, but there is a pretty clear disparity here.

Further I think that diverse voices and characters aren't just for diverse audiences they should be for white male readers too. The vast majority of characters and subsequently creators over the years that I've read have been white. I can identity with many white characters and have enjoyed many stories. I don't see why white male fans can't do the same with creators or characters of color. I think it's something that can be beneficial, to step outside of yourself, your comfort zone and walk in another person's shoes-even if figuratively, and to see how someone else might view the world differently from you. It might piss you off, it might challenge you at points-then again it might not.

Ultimately some of the recalcitrant might learn that they have little to nothing to fear and also that they might be missing out on some great creators, characters, and stories.

I think the biggest problems for minority comic book characters are:

1). Most comic book creators are white, male, and heterosexual and thus really have no true connection to the issues that face them, let along being able to properly relate to them.

2). Most of the minority comic book characters that have been introduced in recent years have essentially been characters to introduce diversity for the sake of diversity. I want genuine diversity, not some corporate guided vision of diversity filled with token characters. The Jaime Reyes and Wiccan/Hulklings have been too few and far between.

 

[DarKush]

Jewish Hobbit,

That's cool. We all see things differently from time to time. No big deal.

Hippie Hunter,

I do think that the majority of people who buy comic books in the US are mostly white males, but I also think there are fans who don't fit that demographic either. And there are more of them than we realize. I have no data to back it up. I just go by what I see at comic shops or at the couple local comic cons I've been to. And I can only imagine how much that total might be if you started adding up all the nonwhite fans (of either gender) and white female fans. And in terms of fans of comic book characters there a whole lot more diverse fans. The issue is getting those fans to purchase more books and it doesn't help the cause, IMO, if you have white male writers writing primarily for a perceived white male fan base.

As for the biggest problem for minority characters...

1) Not diverse enough behind-the-scenes. Does that mean I think that white writers can't do non-white characters? No. There have been some white writers who have done very well with nonwhite characters and others who have not.

But I won't ever buy the idea that a white person on average can tell the story of a person of color on average better than someone in that group. Case in point, while Eric Wallace didn't win over many with his turn on Mr. Terrific, there was always a scene he wrote with a slavery reference that stuck out to me.

It first got my attention courtesy of a blog that criticized it and said it felt out of place. So that got my curiosity going and I picked up the issue. It was something about an alien ship with prisoners, but it made Terrific think of the Middle Passage. I didn't see nothing wrong with it, because slavery has a lingering legacy and is arguably the seminal event, IMO it is the formation event for African-Americans so I could see a guy like Terrific referencing it. Would a white writer have done that? Maybe, but my concern is that there is too much a tendency to avoid race/racism, for either noble or not so noble reasons, and that linkage would likely would not have been made. It wasn't a deal breaker and didn't mean much to the story overall, but the aside felt like something a black person might think about and it made Terrific feel more real to me.

In another book during his Titans run, Wallace wrote an interchange between Vixen and Ink/Tattooed Man which delved into black male/female relationships in the midst of fisticuffs. Before I knew Wallace actually was black, the way the piece was written I thought he was. So I do think having diverse creators might breathe new life into the characters, both white and nonwhite. And some of these nonwhite creators might be good resources for white writers to go to if they need someone's brain to pick, and vice versa. I could easily see a black writer going to an English one for example and asking him what England is like. It's the same principle.

2) Diversity within the books: Actually make the nonwhite characters actually nonwhite without resorting to stereotypes. I don't want to see stereotypical characters but I don't want to see white guys with brown skin either for example. Bring on a clash of ideas and stop being so timid about scaring away white readers. I think JMS to some extent did what I am aiming at with his Supreme Powers books where he had two black heroes with widely divergent views regarding race and they clashed from time to time, though they still wound up respecting one another. Another example is Dwayne McDuffie's Icon where he paired the conservative Icon with the liberal Rocket.

3) Exposure: I think there have to be more nonwhite characters on book covers but more importantly doing important stuff inside the books. More nonwhite (of either gender), white female, or LGBT characters, especially if they headlining books, should be part of the big events or big events should start in their books.

4) Characterization: I think the companies should strive to develop these characters. Make them three-dimensional. Give them supporting casts, love, their own villains (and if they already have a rogues gallery, update them and have them take on white heroes-here's looking at Black Panther). Further, let nonwhite heroes take on some of the big bads of each respective universe and actually win decisively (here's looking at Panther again and DoomWar).

5) Better powers and costumes: Comics are a visual medium so I think extra care should be taken to make sure that nonwhite characters do have some cool costumes, names, and interesting powers.

6) Big/Badass Moments: Do stories where we do get to see nonwhite characters unload, we do get to see the fate of the world hang on their shoulders and that through impossible odds they win.

As for what you felt were the biggest problems:

1) I agree with you.
2) I don't get this 'diversity's for diversity's sake' argument. Comics have often adapted and changed to fit changing times and mores. However many don't grumble about that, but feel the inclusion of a nonwhite character is 'shoving something down their throats'. I don't buy that.

What exactly is 'diversity for the sake of diversity'? Is diversity a bad thing? Is it horrible to attempt to make the comic world reflect a little more the one we actually live in, or do some white fans want to hang on to the homogenous fantasy worlds of many comics for as long as they can? Are comics a racial refuge for some white male readers?

How does one get genuine diversity in comic books without someone actually doing it, either at the behest of creators, editors, etc? And isn't every decision made in a comic book corporate guided?

I would certainly love to see more original nonwhite characters in solo books and on teams at the major companies. I also would like the inclusion of more nonwhite people in supporting casts (though hopefully not as tokens), and even more nonwhites introduced via the legacy route so long as these characters are established as characters in their own right-respecting the legacy while gaining a new legitimacy all their own.

 

[RockSP]

I don't think that there is a comics closet. I think it's just flat out fact that the overwhelming majority of comic book fans are white males. I have never come across anyone who isn't white in a comic book store, even in the ones I visited in New York City. And I've been collecting comics for almost a decade now. Now I'm not saying that there is no such thing as black or Latino comic book fans, but there is a pretty clear disparity here.

How often did you visit the stores in NY? I find it hard to believe that a big city with a huge black population never has any blacks in the comic stores. Hell I live in NC and the 2 stores in my town have plenty of black customers (including myself). There was a 3rd store that closed recently that was owned & operated by a black guy.

 

[StreetWarrior]

The comic book store where I maintain a pull list is in Gaithersburg, MD (right outside Washington, DC) and, while the staff are all white, I've seem quite a few black customers.

Hell, my friends John and Trey are two of the biggest comic book "nerds" I've ever met and both are black.

I will say that I'ver never seen hispanic or asian people at a comic book store though.

But to add to the discussion, I would feel much more comfortable with the integration of more minority characters onto established teams rather than the creation of a single "minority" team. Making such a distinction only seems to further divide readers, as is evident from the discussion in this thread.

 

[hippie_hunter]

How often did you visit the stores in NY? I find it hard to believe that a big city with a huge black population never has any blacks in the comic stores. Hell I live in NC and the 2 stores in my town have plenty of black customers (including myself). There was a 3rd store that closed recently that was owned & operated by a black guy.

About once or twice a year. I have never seen a black customer ever.

 

[The Squirrel]

I don't think once or twice a year is a good ratio for statistics.

 

[hippie_hunter]

and white female fans.

Women are also a rare breed, IMO mostly because comic book fandom just isn't very welcoming to them.

And in terms of fans of comic book characters there a whole lot more diverse fans. The issue is getting those fans to purchase more books and it doesn't help the cause, IMO, if you have white male writers writing primarily for a perceived white male fan base.

You got a point there.

2) Diversity within the books: Actually make the nonwhite characters actually nonwhite without resorting to stereotypes.

Good luck there. I think the only way we're going to get non stereotype characters is from outside the Big Two.

3) Exposure: I think there have to be more nonwhite characters on book covers but more importantly doing important stuff inside the books. More nonwhite (of either gender), white female, or LGBT characters, especially if they headlining books, should be part of the big events or big events should start in their books.

But why would Disney and Warner Bros. market characters that just don't make them money. It's all about the Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc.

4) Characterization: I think the companies should strive to develop these characters. Make them three-dimensional. Give them supporting casts, love, their own villains (and if they already have a rogues gallery, update them and have them take on white heroes-here's looking at Black Panther). Further, let nonwhite heroes take on some of the big bads of each respective universe and actually win decisively (here's looking at Panther again and DoomWar).

5) Better powers and costumes: Comics are a visual medium so I think extra care should be taken to make sure that nonwhite characters do have some cool costumes, names, and interesting powers.

6) Big/Badass Moments: Do stories where we do get to see nonwhite characters unload, we do get to see the fate of the world hang on their shoulders and that through impossible odds they win.

Agreed.

2) I don't get this 'diversity's for diversity's sake' argument. Comics have often adapted and changed to fit changing times and mores. However many don't grumble about that, but feel the inclusion of a nonwhite character is 'shoving something down their throats'. I don't buy that.

What exactly is 'diversity for the sake of diversity'? Is diversity a bad thing? Is it horrible to attempt to make the comic world reflect a little more the one we actually live in, or do some white fans want to hang on to the homogenous fantasy worlds of many comics for as long as they can? Are comics a racial refuge for some white male readers?

How does one get genuine diversity in comic books without someone actually doing it, either at the behest of creators, editors, etc? And isn't every decision made in a comic book corporate guided?

I would certainly love to see more original nonwhite characters in solo books and on teams at the major companies. I also would like the inclusion of more nonwhite people in supporting casts (though hopefully not as tokens), and even more nonwhites introduced via the legacy route so long as these characters are established as characters in their own right-respecting the legacy while gaining a new legitimacy all their own.

What I mean is that you have corporate heads telling writers to come up with token versions of characters that really have no personality and their only defining trait is their race, sexuality, or gender. And yeah, to a certain extent they are shoving minority characters down our throats because Warner Bros. and Disney are operated by marketing executives who see the comic book market as extremely limited and want to broaden the market to more than just white males.

Take a look at John Stewart. He was only put onto the Justice League cartoon simply because the Justice League needed a Green Lantern and that he was black. He wasn't put on the team because he was an interesting character or anything. The end result was that we had a Green Lantern on the show that was bland and boring in comparison to the more fully fleshed out Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Superman. It took Dwayne McDuffie who came on board on the second season to take the challenge and actually develop John Stewart as a character (and Hawkgirl as well). It wasn't until McDuffie started writing Stewart's character on the show in the second season did he actually become an interesting character on the show.

And John Stewart still has a problem in the comics. No one really wants to write him. Not even Dwayne McDuffie when he was writing Justice League of America (he wanted to write Hal Jordan). He's only put on team books because DC editors either demand racial diversity or because the main Green Lantern is unavailable to use. It's gotten slightly better recently, but for the most part throughout John Stewart's history, his character defining trait was that he was the black Green Lantern and nothing else.

Or look at Batwoman, when she was introduced in the 52 comic book series, all DC did was promote how she was a lesbian. Instead of giving her any characteristic traits, all they talked about was how she was a lesbian. And the result was that until she took over Detective Comics, she was a god awful character that DC just kept shoving down our throats.

Meanwhile there has been some genuine diversity, take a look at Blue Beetle where Jaime Reyes' Hispanic heritage was used to enhance his character, but it didn't define him. Or Steel where he has a lot of great character traits such as his intelligence, his work ethic, etc. that goes beyond his race.

 

[Hypestyle]

there needs to be an animated adaptation of the first arc, for sure. Get some all-star voices in the mix.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Honestly... if there's interest in the top of race behind the scenes at Marvel, you should probably start at thread on it. It's sorta derailed this one horribly.