Official New Avengers Discussion Thread!

[roach]

X-men I agree with.

I dont. They are in a war of ideologies...you dont win those by assassination. Would african americans have equality today if MLK formed an assassination squad????

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Didnt Justice League:cry for Justice, Teach you anything?

Nope. Didn't read it

 

[Eros]

If they've left X-Force and reformed, sure, the fact that they've killed before doesn't mean they can't be Avengers. But dual membership between the Avengers and X-Force should be a no-no. One of the many reasons I hate the fact that Wolverine's an Avenger.

Yes Wolverine, I almost forgot, hes on two avengers teams, and hes a assassin in X-force.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, and he was recruited by Iron Man specifically because he's a bloodthirsty animal, which makes it even worse.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

If they've left X-Force and reformed, sure, the fact that they've killed before doesn't mean they can't be Avengers. But dual membership between the Avengers and X-Force should be a no-no. One of the many reasons I hate the fact that Wolverine's an Avenger.

Well, no one save X-Force, Cyclops, and I believe Emma Frost know that X-Force even exists. It's the dark little secret of the X-Men world. Though Nightcrawler just caught on in the first issue of Second Coming and seems pretty pissed,

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I was quite happy to hear Beast literally quit the X-Men when he learned about X-Force. Every member of the X-Men with a shred of moral fortitude should do the same, and if the Avengers ever learned about it, they should boot Wolverine's ass off their team in a heartbeat.

But of course I'm sure they would find some loophole because X-Force is popular.

 

[roach]

I was quite happy to hear Beast literally quit the X-Men when he learned about X-Force. Every member of the X-Men with a shred of moral fortitude should do the same, and if the Avengers ever learned about it, they should boot Wolverine's ass off their team in a heartbeat.

But of course I'm sure they would find some loophole because X-Force is popular.

I find it hypocritical since they didnt want Logan on the team at first because he was a killer

 

[Eros]

Oddly enough wolverine is suppose to be trying to fight his animal urges, thats his entire character plot, but Apprently he quit fighting thme when he got his memories back.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

He quit fighting his animalistic side when it became apparent that he was more popular as a 'badass' killer.

 

[Eros]

He quit fighting his animalistic side when it became apparent that he was more popular as a 'badass' killer.

He was a badass Killer, Now hes parody of what he was in the 80s.

 

[kguillou]

Wolverine was badass enough in the 90's animated series and he didnt kill anyone in that show. His presence and attitude was what made him a fan favorite not his bloodlust. lol

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's because he wasn't allowed to kill in the cartoon. Networks crack down pretty hard on violence in kids' cartoons.

 

[kguillou]

I know but i'm saying that despite the censorship, kids loved wolverine because he just had a badass personality and presence, he didnt need to kill to become popular. I think marvel confuses that sometimes, look at the Punisher, the guy kills every thing in sight but no one really cares. They had to turn him into Frankenstein for his book to get even a little attention.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but writers--especially Bendis--aren't gonna self-censor their comics to minimize Wolverine's killing. Remember, Bendis just had the Sentry literally tear Ares apart in graphic detail in Siege.

 

[BoredGuy]

I feel the need to defend the mutants: X-force are NOT villains in any way, shape, or form.

They're mutants fighting for survival, and they're soldiers following orders.
That is not villainous.

Plus, they only kill total D-bags.... lol

Although, I must admit, I do miss the tortured Samurai Wolverine who fought his urges to kill. That restraint was also part of what made him so appealing.

So while I think all the killing is unnecessarry for his character, it is necessarry for the X-men right now. It's war, and their teammates should accept some casualties on the other side if it spares their side. Not the time for moral superiority when your species is nearly extinct.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You're right, Cyclops is the only one who's really villainous, since he decided that assassinating his opponents is necessary.

 

[BoredGuy]

Good point, but he's no more villainous than any world leader ever.


Plus, no world leaders go to war to defend their WHOLE DAMN SPECIES!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's just a convenient crutch for abandoning his principles. So there's 200 mutants left. Big deal. Better to die proud and committed to their principles to the end than sacrifice all of them and live as morally bankrupt ass nuggets. That's what heroism is all about.

 

[BoredGuy]

So then any underdogs in war, ever, shouldve just laid down and died.
The Alamo?
Thermopoly?
The rebels in Star Wars?
goddam Rambo???


How is fighting for the survival of your people not heroic?
Avengers and their superiority complex, getting your powers in a freak accident doesn't make you better!! lol...jkjk, but seriously...

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I don't have a problem with heroes killing when they have to.

But creating black ops wet works squads to do hit jobs?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

So then any underdogs in war, ever, shouldve just laid down and died.
The Alamo?
Thermopoly?
The rebels in Star Wars?
goddam Rambo???


How is fighting for the survival of your people not heroic?
Avengers and their superiority complex, getting your powers in a freak accident doesn't make you better!! lol...jkjk, but seriously...

None of those battles have anything to do with a situation even remotely like X-Force. Those are all soldiers who've entered a war with the explicit intention of killing their enemies, so the rules are different right off the bat. The X-Men entered the superhero scene looking to promote mutants and win hearts and minds by protecting normal folks as superheroes. They were never soldiers who entered a war looking to kill people, they were people striving to be heroes and lead by example by embodying the principles that their leader laid out for them. The soldiers who've gone and killed loads of their enemies haven't betrayed anything because that's what their principles were in the first place. Plus, they're engaged in open warfare. They were never squirreled away into a secret black ops team to assassinate their enemies behind the scenes while their leaders pretend they've got any kind of moral high ground.

 

[roach]

So then any underdogs in war, ever, shouldve just laid down and died.
The Alamo?
Thermopoly?
The rebels in Star Wars?
goddam Rambo???


How is fighting for the survival of your people not heroic?
Avengers and their superiority complex, getting your powers in a freak accident doesn't make you better!! lol...jkjk, but seriously...

Did Davey Crocket form an assassination team???
Did Luke or Leia????

Nothing wrong with fighting for your survival but who are the X-men fighting for survival against???

 

[roach]

None of those battles have anything to do with a situation even remotely like X-Force. Those are all soldiers who've entered a war with the explicit intention of killing their enemies, so the rules are different right off the bat. The X-Men entered the superhero scene looking to promote mutants and win hearts and minds by protecting normal folks as superheroes. They were never soldiers who entered a war looking to kill people, they were people striving to be heroes and lead by example by embodying the principles that their leader laid out for them. The soldiers who've gone and killed loads of their enemies haven't betrayed anything because that's what their principles were in the first place. Plus, they're engaged in open warfare. They were never squirreled away into a secret black ops team to assassinate their enemies behind the scenes while their leaders pretend they've got any kind of moral high ground.

you,sir, have hit the nail on the head

 

[kguillou]

When are the X-men not in a war? They've constantly been in some type of war since the 90's. See this is why the X-men suck now, why cant we go back to the days where they were a team and a family that fought against the Juggernaut and MR Sinister and Apocalypse, you know the simpler times when the X-men worked? Has Grant Morrison and Joss Whedon taught Marvel nothing?

 

[roach]

When are the X-men not in a war? They've constantly been in some type of war since the 90's. See this is why the X-men suck now, why cant we go back to the days where they were a team and a family that fought against the Juggernaut and MR Sinister and Apocalypse, you know the simpler times when the X-men worked? Has Grant Morrison and Joss Whedon taught Marvel nothing?

I see the X-men as the humans in Battlestar Gallactica but without the Cylons. Sure people want to kill them but they arent really at the point that they thnk they are. I think that if they were really worried about only 200 mutants then they should have been trying to reverse it from day one...which they werent.....besides I find it hypocritical again that a group that has tried to convinces humanity that humans and mutants are the same would now act as if they are a separate race