Mighty Avengers returns in Infinity.

[Mad Ones]

I totally started a thread about this! A while ago! I was excited about it too. It was called Representation in Marvel, or something. It died, though

 

[DarKush]

The comic book store where I maintain a pull list is in Gaithersburg, MD (right outside Washington, DC) and, while the staff are all white, I've seem quite a few black customers.

Hell, my friends John and Trey are two of the biggest comic book "nerds" I've ever met and both are black.

I will say that I'ver never seen hispanic or asian people at a comic book store though.

But to add to the discussion, I would feel much more comfortable with the integration of more minority characters onto established teams rather than the creation of a single "minority" team. Making such a distinction only seems to further divide readers, as is evident from the discussion in this thread.

I go to comic book stores in Washington DC, primarily, and Maryland and I see a good decent of number of black comic fans, besides myself. Also I have seen Asian and I'm assuming Latino customers as well. The majority of people I see are white males, but also there are white females and more non-white females that I also see in the stores I go to.

 

[DarKush]

Hippie Hunter,

In response to your reply to my #3 point. By your logic there should be no other comic book characters besides Spider-Man, Wolverine, Batman, Superman, and the Avengers. Oh wait, I think it is going that route at the Big Two . But there are rosters of other comic book characters at each company and its probably certain that not all make the kind of money that the marquee people do, however they all have their fans and do generate some revenue.

How much of this is a chicken or the egg thing? I mean, if you inundate shops, bookstores, drugstores (back in the day), or whatever with a ton of a certain comic and that's all most casual fans are exposed to, will that create an interest and need for that particular character? Perhaps it is cost prohibitive to try putting those books out at bookstores, but I have to wonder if the Gambit and Hawkeyes, etc. that I see at my local Barnes and Noble are there for demand reasons only. Maybe they are, with Gambit being an X-Man and Hawkeye an Avenger. Then again, I'm not sure.

I think Mighty Avengers is a bold (relatively speaking) yet conservative approach to try to get around the unsaleable issue. This team will be part of that big Avengers juggernaut so hopefully it will get that mass market exposure that none of these characters (with the exceptions of Spider-Man and maybe She-Hulk) could get on their own. Tying these characters to something so popular as the Avengers brand might mollify some trepidations some white fans or others might have, and it might spark some interest. I think it's going to be an interesting experiment.

The team approach is safe, but often times even with that, the nonwhite characters don't get the support or development so it amounts to tokenism and I think that helps bolster the feelings that these characters are being forced on readers.

Which segues into my response to you on diversity. I agree with you about Blue Beetle, from the few books I've read about him. I think DC has done a good job developing Jamie and making him stand apart from Ted Kord. They've even added to the back story while respecting Kord's legacy and created a much better, more eye catching Blue Beetle suit in the process. I think Jamie supplants Kord now, sorry old Blue Beetle fans.

As for Batwoman, DC and/or media outlets did trumpet Kate's sexual orientation but I don't think that's a bad thing. When DC or Marvel gets knocked for diversity of course they are going to point out when they are breaking ground or making strides. However I don't think Kate is defined solely by her lesbianism. I've read a couple Batwoman graphic novels and picked up the last several issues. Kate's lesbianism is a part of the character. She's involved in a relationship but it doesn't dominate the storylines. There's a lot about her-being a kickass former soldier, her family issues, her role with the DEO, her villains, which all are what drives most of the stories I've read. I think Kate is a great addition to the Batman universe and there's a creepiness in many of her books and with her villains that you don't find even in the main Batman books. I think Batwoman's Alice is way creepier than The Court of Owls, for example.

As for John Stewart, I had heard about his inclusion on Justice League cartoon and I didn't have a problem with that. At least those producers saw the roster and realized they needed to add some diversity. I didn't know when McDuffie came onboard the cartoon but I'm so glad he did. In addition to doing great work on that show all around he has been the last best writer for John Stewart. I think Christopher J. Priest did some work with Stewart back in the day, but I remember only reading one issue years ago. It did look interesting and I wouldn't mind finishing that, but I digress...

I could see McDuffie maybe not wanting to write Stewart because he might have felt he was being pigeonholed or that he might have been cognizant of some white fan reaction that Stewart, under his pen, would preach to them or something. Further, with Hal being the more high profile (within the comics) Lantern, it could've been a prestige thing too. I mean, why couldn't McDuffie do Hal? As far as I know, I don't think any black writers have written Hal and I know none have written Batman and Superman (talking solo books, not Justice League. But even with the Justice League, McDuffie was dealing with DC pulling many of the major characters off the books).

I have noticed how Stewart has taken a backseat as a Lantern and it's unfortunate. Because McDuffie showed how awesome Stewart can be, but after him, John was just reduced to a marionette who has been too much defined by his failures. I do agree with you that it appears at least under Johns and Tomasi that Stewart did not have an advocate. That might be changing with the new creators though, and John is headlining the Green Lantern Corps book now. So someone seems to taken an interest in Stewart and I look forward to seeing what they do with him.

Even token characters can be made into great characters with the right stewardship.

I don't think diversity is always a demand though. I think it's necessary for both companies to adapt to changing times and survive.

Now the onus is on the companies that once they create these characters and introduce them that they make them interesting enough that they function as three-dimensional or at least cool enough characters to keep people coming back. Though it is an uphill battle and it sucks that the major companies still have to inject diversity into their lineups and still are struggling to craft well written/developed nonwhite characters in the 21st century. And the companies don't do themselves any favors when they half-ass it with these characters because it reinforces feelings of some fans that they are just there for diversity, kind of like an invasive species, or vines or something instead of interesting characters in their own rights.

 

[runawayboulder]

Hippie Hunter,

In response to your reply to my #3 point. By your logic there should be no other comic book characters besides Spider-Man, Wolverine, Batman, Superman, and the Avengers. Oh wait, I think it is going that route at the Big Two . But there are rosters of other comic book characters at each company and its probably certain that not all make the kind of money that the marquee people do, however they all have their fans and do generate some revenue.

Just a quick pointer, if you look at the bottom right of someone's post, you can click the quote button and it opens a new message with their post in there so you can edit it in order to respond. They also get notified to your response as well.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I get no notifications

Then again, I probably unclicked that option years ago.

 

[runawayboulder]

Top right corner where it says "Welcome, (user name). The notifications are there. I think there is an option that will email you as well, which I believe you can turn on/off.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Hippie Hunter,

In response to your reply to my #3 point. By your logic there should be no other comic book characters besides Spider-Man, Wolverine, Batman, Superman, and the Avengers. Oh wait, I think it is going that route at the Big Two . But there are rosters of other comic book characters at each company and its probably certain that not all make the kind of money that the marquee people do, however they all have their fans and do generate some revenue.

I'm not saying that at all. You have to look at this from a business standpoint and essentially what Warner Bros. and Disney are going to do is focus on the major superheroes which is a huge hindrance for diversity for comic book characters. New characters that get introduced, even the white ones, really don't have a lot of movement for growth beyond just comic books in a profit driven world. It's a shame.

How much of this is a chicken or the egg thing? I mean, if you inundate shops, bookstores, drugstores (back in the day), or whatever with a ton of a certain comic and that's all most casual fans are exposed to, will that create an interest and need for that particular character? Perhaps it is cost prohibitive to try putting those books out at bookstores, but I have to wonder if the Gambit and Hawkeyes, etc. that I see at my local Barnes and Noble are there for demand reasons only. Maybe they are, with Gambit being an X-Man and Hawkeye an Avenger. Then again, I'm not sure.

Most characters nowadays can't even handle one book. I don't think publishing new books will drum up interest because characters like the Punisher can't even thrive in today's market.

I think Mighty Avengers is a bold (relatively speaking) yet conservative approach to try to get around the unsaleable issue. This team will be part of that big Avengers juggernaut so hopefully it will get that mass market exposure that none of these characters (with the exceptions of Spider-Man and maybe She-Hulk) could get on their own. Tying these characters to something so popular as the Avengers brand might mollify some trepidations some white fans or others might have, and it might spark some interest. I think it's going to be an interesting experiment.

Except the Avengers brand has already been overstretched in the comic book market. Asides from Uncanny Avengers, Avengers, and New Avengers, the other Avengers titles just aren't doing all that well. Dark Avengers just got cancelled. Secret Avengers, Young Avengers, and Avengers Assemble are having some rather steep drops and just aren't catching on all that well. And does anyone have any faith in Avengers A.I.? Attaching the Avengers name just doesn't mean anything anymore because Marvel has just slapped it on to far too many books that don't even deserve to be called Avengers books.

And then there is the creative team that just isn't one that will sell books. Greg Land is an unpopular artist who usually gets attached to high profile books and high profile writers. Without being on a AAA book or a AAA writer, I don't see him helping the book at all. And Al Ewing just isn't a sales driver either for comic books. The only way I think this book could have worked was if you attached a high profile writer the way Marvel has attached Matt Fraction to Hawkeye and Brian Michael Bendis to Guardians of the Galaxy. Or even DC had Geoff Johns write Aquaman.

The team approach is safe, but often times even with that, the nonwhite characters don't get the support or development so it amounts to tokenism and I think that helps bolster the feelings that these characters are being forced on readers.

Well maybe if a lot of these characters were given proper character development, readers wouldn't think that they're being forced upon.

As for Batwoman, DC and/or media outlets did trumpet Kate's sexual orientation but I don't think that's a bad thing. When DC or Marvel gets knocked for diversity of course they are going to point out when they are breaking ground or making strides. However I don't think Kate is defined solely by her lesbianism. I've read a couple Batwoman graphic novels and picked up the last several issues. Kate's lesbianism is a part of the character. She's involved in a relationship but it doesn't dominate the storylines. There's a lot about her-being a kickass former soldier, her family issues, her role with the DEO, her villains, which all are what drives most of the stories I've read. I think Kate is a great addition to the Batman universe and there's a creepiness in many of her books and with her villains that you don't find even in the main Batman books. I think Batwoman's Alice is way creepier than The Court of Owls, for example.

The way DC introduced her was flat out terrible. I'm sorry but a person's gender, race, or sexuality shouldn't be the only defining feature. People don't work that way. They have personalities and flaws and all that other stupid stuff that makes us human. But DC just introduced her as the Lesbian and had it be her only defining feature.

It wasn't until she took over Detective Comics and Greg Rucka gave her other defining features did she manage to take off as a character. Her sexuality now isn't a hindrance that was her sole defining feature. It became a part of who she was that enhanced her. Instead of "LESBIAN" being Batwoman's character, she is now a warrior with a sense of duty who wants to help people with various family issues. She is no longer the Token Lipstick Lesbian and just simply became a well fleshed out character who happens to be a lesbian.

As for John Stewart, I had heard about his inclusion on Justice League cartoon and I didn't have a problem with that. At least those producers saw the roster and realized they needed to add some diversity. I didn't know when McDuffie came onboard the cartoon but I'm so glad he did. In addition to doing great work on that show all around he has been the last best writer for John Stewart. I think Christopher J. Priest did some work with Stewart back in the day, but I remember only reading one issue years ago. It did look interesting and I wouldn't mind finishing that, but I digress...

I had a problem with it because whenever they tried to focus on Green Lantern for some episodes in Season One, I was bored out of my mind. John Stewart (and Hawkgirl) were horribly underdeveloped and flat out dull. The people who put in that show simply put them in there to have race and gender quotas filled and those two characters suffered for it.

I remember reading an interview by McDuffie in which he said that he often liked to tackle characters that he saw as challenges for him as a writer. It's why when he came on board for the show by Season Two and replaced Paul Dini, he started to really focus on the underdeveloped characters of John Stewart and Hawkgirl, and they really benefited because of it.

However, not every writer isn't a Dwayne McDuffie. And the comic book industry took a huge loss when he died. Most writers simply like writing the characters they like, not the ones they see as a challenge.

I could see McDuffie maybe not wanting to write Stewart because he might have felt he was being pigeonholed or that he might have been cognizant of some white fan reaction that Stewart, under his pen, would preach to them or something. Further, with Hal being the more high profile (within the comics) Lantern, it could've been a prestige thing too. I mean, why couldn't McDuffie do Hal? As far as I know, I don't think any black writers have written Hal and I know none have written Batman and Superman (talking solo books, not Justice League. But even with the Justice League, McDuffie was dealing with DC pulling many of the major characters off the books).

When McDuffie took over Justice League of America, DC editorial basically screwed him over hard. He wanted to do a simple Justice League story with him writing the Big Six plus a few others that would allow McDuffie to shine the spotlight on the smaller characters. DC wouldn't let him have any of the Big Seven. Batman was dead, Superman was on New Krypton, Hal Jordan went off to form his own Justice League with Green Arrow, the Flash was "busy," and Wonder Woman was doing something that I forget. To sum it off in McDuffie's own words:

"Looking ahead, the line-wide continuity is going to eventually line up for a more traditional JLA, but we're not there yet. At the moment, none of the big seven are available. Beyond that, The Hawks, Green Arrow, both Atoms, Captain Marvel and almost everyone I think of as either a big gun, or a traditional JLA favorite are likewise not available. So as we wait for things to settle down in the other titles, I'm doing "Cap's Kooky Quartet." Of course, in this case Captain America isn't available, either."

"there are three current members of the League I wish weren't on it."

"I've had virtually no input into the composition of JLA. It's DC Comics' flagship book. They tell me who to put on the team, based on their needs elsewhere in the universe, and I do it. I believe I had influence in getting rid of Red Tornado, but even there I was forced to put him back in his body about two years before I had planned to."

"Yes, Anansi is supposed to be me, and the story arc is about my not having control of the stories in my book."

McDuffie said all this while he was still writing Justice League of America and when he was finally asked if he were enjoying writing for the book, McDuffie said that he didn't. As a result, DC fired him.

This webcomic sums up just how much of a mess McDuffie's Justice League was:
http://comiccritics.com/2009/06/16/the-sad-strange-tale-of-dwayne-mcduffie/

I have noticed how Stewart has taken a backseat as a Lantern and it's unfortunate. Because McDuffie showed how awesome Stewart can be, but after him, John was just reduced to a marionette who has been too much defined by his failures. I do agree with you that it appears at least under Johns and Tomasi that Stewart did not have an advocate. That might be changing with the new creators though, and John is headlining the Green Lantern Corps book now. So someone seems to taken an interest in Stewart and I look forward to seeing what they do with him.

Thankfully with Tomasi, Stewart has been able to develop, but for the longest time he was languishing simply because he was nothing but the token black Green Lantern. You can't blame a writer for not wanting to write a character that just isn't interesting to them.

Even token characters can be made into great characters with the right stewardship.

But the Greg Ruckas, Dwayne McDuffies, and Peter Tomasis are few and far between. Most writers have the mentality of Dan Slott, Bendis, and Johns. Comic book fanboys who are fulfilling their dreams of writing their favorite characters like Spider-Man, Green Lantern, and the X-Men.

I don't think diversity is always a demand though. I think it's necessary for both companies to adapt to changing times and survive.

The best route for diversity is the same route that the rest of the comic book industry is taking, through the growth of indies. Diversity will never come to the Big Two because their roots have been firmly cemented on characters that have been around for 40+ years.

Now the onus is on the companies that once they create these characters and introduce them that they make them interesting enough that they function as three-dimensional or at least cool enough characters to keep people coming back. Though it is an uphill battle and it sucks that the major companies still have to inject diversity into their lineups and still are struggling to craft well written/developed nonwhite characters in the 21st century. And the companies don't do themselves any favors when they half-ass it with these characters because it reinforces feelings of some fans that they are just there for diversity, kind of like an invasive species, or vines or something instead of interesting characters in their own rights.

DC and Marvel just aren't going to do that though. DC and Marvel don't make money by licensing Black Lighting or Luke Cage, they make money by licensing Batman and Spider-Man. It's a profit driven business first and foremost and they're always going to go to where the money is.

Like I said, diversity that properly reflects society is going to come from the indies. Not corporate driven comics created by the Big Two who see introducing diversity as a demographic move as opposed to a cultural move and focus on profit first and foremost.

 

[DarKush]

Just a quick pointer, if you look at the bottom right of someone's post, you can click the quote button and it opens a new message with their post in there so you can edit it in order to respond. They also get notified to your response as well.

Thanks.

 

[runawayboulder]

No prob.

 

[Thwip!]

Land on art? Guess I won't be buying this so

 

[Specter313]

MIGHTY AVENGERS #2
AL EWING (W) • GREG LAND (A/C)
Variant Cover by FRANCESCO FRANCAVILLA
THOR BATTLE VARIANT ALSO AVAILABLE
INFINITY TIE-IN! new ongoing series!
• Proxima Midnight is killing New York City one block at a time...
• Luke Cage’s ad-hoc Avengers might not be able to stop her...
• And the one hero who can is at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.
• Think it can’t get worse? It can always get worse.
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Land on art? Guess I won't be buying this so

Ditto. I'm kind of into a couple of characters, most notably She-Hulk and the Blue Marvel, but Greg Land = automatic pass for me. I refuse to support his s***ty cut-and-paste art.

 

[The Squirrel]

I'll at least give the first issue a try.

 

[OutcryX]

DC and Marvel just aren't going to do that though. DC and Marvel don't make money by licensing Black Lighting or Luke Cage, they make money by licensing Batman and Spider-Man. It's a profit driven business first and foremost and they're always going to go to where the money is.

Like I said, diversity that properly reflects society is going to come from the indies. Not corporate driven comics created by the Big Two who see introducing diversity as a demographic move as opposed to a cultural move and focus on profit first and foremost.

They licensed out Blade. He made money...enough for 3 movies.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

That's racist

 

[Havok83]

it could have been worse. They could have had him in a watermelon suit

 

[runawayboulder]

Or a piece of chicken.

 

[Havok83]

Or a piece of chicken.

fried chicken

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I'm not offended by the cover, but I have to wonder why Land took the chance at all? Couldn't Bananapool have gone on the cover of ANY other book. In 2013, where you have to be PC to the point of nausea, why not spare yourself the headache.

You could have the Hatemonger crash any party in the comic-world, but would you have him show up at a Bar Mitzvah that Ben Grimm and Shadowcat are attending?

 

[JewishHobbit]

I honestly wouldn't have even caught the racist connotations if you hadn't pointed it out.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

And that's perhaps the same ignorance* that Land will claim.

*You're a writer so you know that word isn't necessarily an insult :heart:

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'll readily admit to being ignorant on race stuff.

 

[RockSP]

Knowing marvel, they knew it would be offensive to some but went with it anyway for the free publicity.

 

[JewishHobbit]

That's Marvel. Any publicity is good publicity.

 

[RockSP]