More greatly appreciate Keaton/'89 Batman?

[Superwoman Prime]

I liked Bale's performance as Batman; and Batman Begins will always be on my top ten list of favorite movies. But since then, many of us have watched 'Batman' from '89, because our interest for Batman filmography was resurrected, so to speak. Now that you have rewatched it, and 'Batman' has officially become a cultural classic among the culture of Bat fans, do you appreciate Michael Keaton now more than you did before 'Begins' came out?

 

[wootbaby]

michael keaton is one of my favorite actors of the decade (along with bill murray). if you watch Mr Mom or Gung Ho, he plays the perfect vision of the 80's fast-talking everyman hero . rough around the edges but an all-american guy you can count on who refuses to compromise in wacked out situations. if you've seen him on letterman or whatever keaton seems to be that kind of guy IRL. it's a shame his career dried up after the mess with the batman films. although he's had some solid smaller parts in Jackie Brown, out of sight etc

bale is more of an actor's actor. he has a different underlying tension in the role from keaton and bale seems to more fully disappear into his character. after watching him in BR I'd have to say I appreciate Keaton less in batman '89 than before.

keaton has been a favorite of mine for 25 years since I was a kid and watched his other movies but in batman he's basically playing the michael keaton persona as bruce wayne. this sort of odd character who puts on a mask at night and goes out into the city

in BR bale seems fully be playing batman a fully obsessed character bent on vengeful justice. with bruce wayne as a mask/tool to help him get the job done

i got a kick out of the keaton all american smart-assedness in BR '89 like when he tells vicki vale and the photographer discussing (without recognizing keaton is bruce wayne) where some ancient armor in wayne manor originated ...

MK: "it's japanese"
guy: "how do you know?"
MK: "because I bought it in japan

keaton did bring his own trademark intensity as batman (like when he forces the joker to shoot him in order to get out of the room) but overall though I think bale is superior for the emotion he brings to the character. in batman 89 it's not really clear WHY keaton is batman... he's a multi-talented fast talking guy who seems charismatic and decently well adjusted. there's so many ways for a guy like that to impact society or fight crime. i can see him as a politician or anything. bale's batman is a guy who basically has no option but to channel his rage into batman

 

[Bruce_Wayne29]

That's an interesting post wootbaby. On my part I think it was clear why he fought crime every night but it was a more subtle thing, it's they're in his eye in scenes like when he visits the place where his parents were murdered or when he relives their death.
Keaton was amazing in expressing his pain without many words. And I do feel that he is trapped in his grief and just like he says to Vickie, he feels that he has to do that everynight, he HAS to, because nobody else can and because in his own mind he feels that he's contributing to make the world a little more perfect everytime he does it and avoids that someone like him has to lose another loved one.
It's not a coincidence that in the beginning those 2 thiefs rob a couple and their son a bit like the Wayne's and Bruce years before and Batman appears to bring fear to them and spread the news that that sort of thing isn't going to happen anymore.
As for the question in the thread, I've always apreciated Michael, the Batman I always invisioned when I read comics came to life thanks to him and I'll be forever grateful for him for what he contributed to the character and for sticking up for it years later when Schumacher wanted to turn the movies into comercials for toys.
As for Bale I think he may just be the best Bruce Wayne ever but I still think he has a long way to go as Batman. I think he did great in what was required him to be at this point which was the Year One Batman, the Batman who still makes mistakes and is not completly consumed by his mission. Also I thought his voice as Batman was a bit forced.
I did think he was at his best in the train sequence at the end. That close-up was great and in it he did look more like Batman.
Keaton's version though not yet working alongside the law has been around for some time, an urban legend had already been around concerning Batman and his was a more experienced Batman, he played the established version of the character (which is what Bale will play - hopefully well - in the future films).
And in constrast to Bale's Batman, Keaton's has a more intimidating look and almost mythic presence.
There's a story I always like to relate to this when I write about it, which is in a JLA story when the Blue Beetle is trying to make money out of the league by selling merchandise, he is warned by Martian Man Hunter (a super-powered being !) to stop it, he couldn't care less. All Martian Man Hunter had to say was this: "Do you want me to tell Batman ?"
I think that says all right there, when a guy with no powers can be more intimidating (and we're not talking physical presence) to a super-hero even more than another super-hero.
It makes me go back to the subtlety of Michael's performance and how he conveyed so much with his eyes. He was awesome and he'll forever be Batman in my book.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

man, i dont want to post another response for this type of thread, so, ill just say this, i agree with everything you guys just said.

Keaton Forever.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

man, i dont want to post another response for this type of thread, so, ill just say this, i agree with everything you guys just said.

Keaton Forever.

 

[cryptic name]

michael keaton made me a batman fan. he's it, as far as i'm concerned. he is batman to me. i even liked his portrayal of wayne as an emotionally stunted recluse.

 

[CConn]

Nope, my appreciation for Keaton's never really wavered - I've always been a big fan.

I will say, I think the depth Begins gives to the character of Batman improves B89 as a film, though. It's like I understand the Batman character (in the film) more; have a closer connection than I did before.

 

[ReptileOrion]

The first two posts did a great job highlighting why Keaton is great. To me Keaton "is" Batman. I was 8 years old when I watched the first film back in 1989. I enjoy his interpretation of the character. After seeing Christian Bale in Begins I feel he excels in a lot of elements of the Batman character. Bale did his homework and was pretty faithful to the comics. Bale won me over in the scene with Flass.

"SWEAR TO ME!!!!"

When I first saw that scene I wanted to scream out "Yeah!!! Somebody's getting it right." in the movie theater...lol

 

[Bruce_Wayne29]

I will say, I think the depth Begins gives to the character of Batman improves B89 as a film, though. It's like I understand the Batman character (in the film) more; have a closer connection than I did before.

Exactly, I feel the same way, the two complete each other. I like to watch Begins and then go watch Batman89. It's great and I think both movies benefit from each other.

 

[Lazlo Panaflex]

To me Keaton was playing himself trying to act like Bruce Wayne but his Batman was excellent, you wouldn't know that Bats and Bruce were the same guy.

Bale was more pshycological and had a reason to use the Batman disguise.

 

[The Joker]

Keaton was awesome. He's right up there with Bale IMO.

 

[tinister]

I watched Batman Begins on DVD last night for the first time. I was traveling when the film was in release - with no access to theaters.

I think the reason the movie works for me is because Nolan actually makes good use of the characters. He tapped all the best character history/traits from the comics. In return - it gives the actors portraying the characters more to work with.

This results in a Batman that you can more easily connect with and understand.

Every time I learn who has been chosen as the new Wayne/Batman - I always question the choice. This was true for every Batman since 1989.

I think it is because I have duo expectations. I expect Batman to be a certain way. And I have different expectations from the same actor's portrayal of Bruce Wayne.

IMO - the best Batman actors manage a good contrast between the two sides. The bad ones simply jump back-and-forth between wearing a Batsuit and an Armani.

So to rank the actors - I need to separate the two personas: (NOTE: I'm including Adam West because I include the 1960's Batman movie based on the tv series)

BEST BATMAN:
First: Keaton
Second: Bale
Third: West
Fourth: Clooney
Last: Kilmer


BEST WAYNE:
First: West
Second: Keaton
Third: Bale
Fourth: Clooney
Last: Kilmer

Kilmer is last on both of my lists because I don't think he really did anything with either personas. He's a great actor - so I think it is just because he was given little to work with by Joel Schumacher. He literally was just there to fill in the two costumes.

George Clooney holds the fourth position on both of my lists because I feel Clooney had a little spark of potential there - both as Batman and as Wayne, but that spark was just smothered in all the crap that was around him. Just that little spark was still more than what Val Kilmer was able to do for me.

Michael Keaton IS Batman for me. There's just something very subtle about his portrayal that made his Batman more convincing. It wasn't anything he said, but more in his actions. It is strange - but it is hard to place why he works so well. But as Wayne - he was simply Michael Keaton. Very likeable, but just simply Keaton instead of Wayne.

Adam West as Batman was a joke. BUT it was meant to be a joke. So in that context - he worked as Batman. He ranks lower than Keaton and Bale only because I'm a child(and fan) of the "Darker" Batman. So it is more a preference choice rather than one based on acting/portrayal. But in my mind - his Bruce Wayne is immensely under-appreciated.

Christian Bale - out of all the actors - has managed the best balance of good qualities between Batman and Wayne. Batman Begins shows us a Batman/Wayne that is conflicted and in transition. Both Batman and Bruce Wayne are unsure about what to do for most of the picture. So if you watch the Wayne scenes - he's almost like a zombie. It's a very subtle accomplishment for Bale to pull this off. To portray a character who is - on one end -questioning everything about his life; and on the other end - anguishing to take action.

I have to wait to see the second Nolan Batman movie (is he directing? Is Bale attached?). I have a feeling that the second movie will allow Bale to fully slip into both the Batman and Wayne roles. And I can't wait to see if he adds any more depth to the two personas.

LOL. My list will probably surprise a few and piss some. But this is a cool discussion.

Any thoughts?

Tin

 

[Proximo]

Keaton IS and always will be the best Batman, In my opinion.

Keaton Forever...

 

[Cyrusbales]

Keaton is a fantastic bruce wayne, he is dark and brooding, really showing the trauma of the character! But he was a little bit too weedy for the batman side of things, but I still prefer Batman and Batman Returns to batman begins,. Much greater style in those films, and the characterisation of the villains was supurb and superior to all other comic book film villains!

 

[Proximo]

Keaton is a fantastic bruce wayne, he is dark and brooding, really showing the trauma of the character! But he was a little bit too weedy for the batman side of things, but I still prefer Batman and Batman Returns to batman begins,. Much greater style in those films, and the characterisation of the villains was supurb and superior to all other comic book film villains!

I agree, I also prefer Batman & Returns more then Begins...
I have probably watched Batman & Returns god knows how many times.... more then 500 times atleast.

And i have watched Begins 2 times, 1 time In theatre, And 1 time when i got the DVD.
Never got intrest to see it anymore, Because it didnt have a big effect on me as Batman and Batman returns does.
Sure i can probably watch it and enjoy it for what it is... But i dont need too

 

[Cyrusbales]

I agree, I also prefer Batman & Returns more then Begins...
I have probably watched Batman & Returns god knows how many times.... more then 500 times atleast.

And i have watched Begins 2 times, 1 time In theatre, And 1 time when i got the DVD.

Yer, I find batman begins is a bit boring, it's not really a comic book film or a btman film, it's a film that just happens to have batman in. The evil plot is kinda weak aswell, surely if the machine boils all water, it boils water in people?

Most people on here prefer begins, which kind of scares me. I just love the sheer visual pleasure you get from batman & returns. I think batman begins 3 will be good, maybe on a par with returns if we're lucky, but I think it's gonna be hard to beat Burton's spectacular vision!

 

[Proximo]

Yer, I find batman begins is a bit boring, it's not really a comic book film or a btman film, it's a film that just happens to have batman in. The evil plot is kinda weak aswell, surely if the machine boils all water, it boils water in people?

Most people on here prefer begins, which kind of scares me. I just love the sheer visual pleasure you get from batman & returns. I think batman begins 3 will be good, maybe on a par with returns if we're lucky, but I think it's gonna be hard to beat Burton's spectacular vision!

Totally agree, Batman begins is just a normal hollywood action movie whit Batman in it.
I think the realistic approch they went is what kills it.
Burton had some fantasy, batman is a fantasy character.. dont bring in realistic stuff in it... because then the whole story will have plot holes.
Bruce/Batman doesnt live and work in Chicago...He is in Gotham City...

I think no one will be able to beat Burtons awesome Vision of the character's and Gotham City.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Totally agree, Batman begins is just a normal hollywood action movie whit Batman in it.
I think the realistic approch they went is what kills it.
Burton had some fantasy, batman is a fantasy character.. dont bring in realistic stuff in it... because then the whole story will have plot holes.
Bruce/Batman doesnt live and work in Chicago...He is in Gotham City...

I think no one will be able to beat Burtons awesome Vision of the character's and Gotham City.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

Totally agree, Batman begins is just a normal hollywood action movie whit Batman in it.
I think the realistic approch they went is what kills it.
Burton had some fantasy, batman is a fantasy character.. dont bring in realistic stuff in it... because then the whole story will have plot holes.
Bruce/Batman doesnt live and work in Chicago...He is in Gotham City...

I think no one will be able to beat Burtons awesome Vision of the character's and Gotham City.

Markus, this is the best thing ive ever heard you say.

 

[Proximo]

Markus, this is the best thing ive ever heard you say.

Eric, haha ok

 

[Two-Face]

Totally agree, Batman begins is just a normal hollywood action movie whit Batman in it.
I think the realistic approch they went is what kills it.
Burton had some fantasy, batman is a fantasy character.. dont bring in realistic stuff in it... because then the whole story will have plot holes.
Bruce/Batman doesnt live and work in Chicago...He is in Gotham City...

I think no one will be able to beat Burtons awesome Vision of the character's and Gotham City.

Like Batman 89 didn't have plot holes?
Yeah Joker killed Bruce's parents

he's is in Gotham City, Nolan's one different I mean nolan did what Burton did Gotham style then you probably say Nolan copied Burton nothing against Burton I'm glad it was different.

Story wise Batman Begins was the better one.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Like Batman 89 didn't have plot holes?
Yeah Joker killed Bruce's parents

he's is in Gotham City, Nolan's one different I mean nolan did what Burton did Gotham style then you probably say Nolan copied Burton nothing against Burton I'm glad it was different.

Story wise Batman Begins was the better one.

Really? I thought batman begins had a weak story, I like the mystery of batman in burton's flicks, we didn't need to see his originsa as such, he was just the dark knight emerging from the darkness to stop evil. But that's just me

 

[Proximo]

Like Batman 89 didn't have plot holes?
Yeah Joker killed Bruce's parents

he's is in Gotham City, Nolan's one different I mean nolan did what Burton did Gotham style then you probably say Nolan copied Burton nothing against Burton I'm glad it was different.

Story wise Batman Begins was the better one.

Sure batman '89 had plotholes, But not as Begins.
Joker killing Bruce parents, I thought that was a good and diffrent approch Thats what i like whit Burton's vision, Its diffrent then everyone elses.

In begins, Batman is in Chicago, It looks nothing like a fantasy city as Gotham city really is.
Just look on Burtons Gotham... the huge and gothic buildings.
And to be honest, Begins gotham city is much brighter then Burtons.

I havent said Nolan copied Burton, Im saying Nolan took the easy way and used Chicago as Gotham City, Burton did their own Gotham city, a mix whit everything from diffrent time periods, thats what make it so special and more exciting then Chicago, sry Gotham city.

Story wise B'89 Is much stronger, Or do you think water boiling a city is stronger then inviting 100 000's of people in the centrum and relase toxic gas.
Begins pretty much copied the plot from B89, but used the water boiling crap instead. And i dont think any city would make the head water supply through a prison basement, specially that revealed.

Say what you want, I still prefer '89 and Returns over begins.
End of story

 

[Two-Face]

Only reason I prefer BB cos it wasn't all about villains = Joker, Burton could've used Batman: Year One and Y1 was written in 1985 or least show the origin with different style.

Don't getting me wrong I love Burton Bat movies is just that Burton forgot Batman and playing second fiddle to his supporting characters.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Only reason I prefer BB cos it wasn't all about villains = Joker, Burton could've used Batman: Year One and Y1 was written in 1985 or least show the origin with different style.

Don't getting me wrong I love Burton Bat movies is just that Burton forgot Batman and playing second fiddle to his supporting characters.

when he uses fantastic villains like catwoman, penguin and the joker in the way he did, then I don't mind. I think it adds to the mystery element of batman