Nostalgia

[Superwoman Prime]

I want to state that my favorite Batman movie is Mask of the Phantasm... but when it comes to the live-action category, B'89 by far.

Many debates center around who was closer to the source material: Burton or Nolan. This is an old debate, and this thread IS NOT FOR THAT! however, if you aren't too dense, you've noticed that many Begins enthusiasts come from the angle that Burtonites either go by:

A) Loving Burton's work unconditionally

or

B) Loving B'89 as a child and going off of nostalgia only

There's this thought that for preferring B'89, fans are just not objective in their judgment; because (A) is for those in denial as to some of the crap Burton has shat out in his lifetime and (B) is judging by cherished past memories. I want some consideration into the possibility that maybe... just maybe... it's not about kissing Burton's ass... it's not about having been silly, awestruck children in a theater... it's about Batman fans watching B'89 and Batman Begins side-by-side and coming to the conclusion that the former is a better movie, not only for entertainment purposes, but because it is a superior Batman movie. That's the case for me. While I grew up with Michael Keaton as my hero, I never cared about the superhero genre like I do now. Batman Begins raised my interest, and I was into the movie, into Christian Bale's performance and whatnot, then I watched B'89 only to be blown away about how much better it was. I like it more than Begins. Not simply because I grew up with it.

For those fans who prefer B'89: for you personally, is it because it's a better movie for all the mythos components, or because of nostalgia? A little of both?

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

I grew up with B89.
But I don't LOVE Burton at all. Infact, a don't care for many of his movies, including Batman Returns.

But for me, B89 is PERFECT entertainment. Its comic accurate with the early days of Batman. I love the acting, the story, the music, the cast, and the look of the film.
I realize that no film is perfect, but in my mind, B89 is as close to perfection as it gets.

Its saddens me that we never got a true sequel to B89.

If Burton had reused Fursts original sets, and centered the BR around Batman, it could ahve been something truely special.

As it stands, I only like B89 and BB so far.
The rest are crap.

 

[Cyrusbales]

This thread will get hijacked probably, but I consider B89 to be a superior movie, nostalgia doesn't enter into it for me. I find it a sumptuously dark contemporary classic that is strides apart from many other movies and virtually every other superhero flick.

Burton in my mind has made a few good films and lots of bad ones. He used to be a decent director, but lately I'd say he isn't. However I view his films all as individual pieces of art.

 

[Rockbottom]

The rest are crap.

You don't like them, doesn't make them crap.

 

[Mr. Socko]

When I watch them side by side, I prefer Batman '89. It's not really nostalgia either, it's just a very entertaining movie that I can watch time after time. Batman Begins is a good film, but it doesn't come across as very fun. And when I say fun, I mean an imaginative entertaining piece that you can watch as both a child and an adult, so don't even try to bring up B&R.

The difference between Batman '89 and Batman Begins is the same as the difference between E.T. and War of the Worlds.

 

[El Payaso]

If for nostalgia I grew up untill 16 with Adam west. But B89 was THE Batman movie for me. Most of BB was great but with the flaws I found in it, it didn't cut it for me. Maybe TDK.

 

[Cain]

I grew up on the film but there are plenty of films from the 80's that I've now outgrown this just isn't one of them. It's really one of my all time favorite movies because it marries two of my favorite mediums so damn well comics & film. Out of all the Batman films to me personally it feels the most like the comic brought to life thanks largely in part of course to the production design. It's like an escape it doesn't feel like watching a movie to me but watching a comic book in motion thanks to how fantastical it is.

Someone posted this over at BOF I really wish I remember who it was but I forget who since I haven't checked that site in over a year. To that person if you post on these boards as well then please stand up, but anyway this pretty much explains what I mean

 

[Cain]

 

[Cain]

My favorite

The film just has such a unique visual style that it really feels like opening a window and looking into Gotham City. Some of those images are just too over the top to ever be referenced in any of the current bat-films so that's something I really appreciate from this flick. It's just a good Batman movie captures the tone of the comics and has good performances & a great score that's why I still watch it to this day, it's definitely not nostalgia.

 

[Penismightier]

When I watch them side by side, I prefer Batman '89. It's not really nostalgia either, it's just a very entertaining movie that I can watch time after time. Batman Begins is a good film, but it doesn't come across as very fun. And when I say fun, I mean an imaginative entertaining piece that you can watch as both a child and an adult, so don't even try to bring up B&R.

The difference between Batman '89 and Batman Begins is the same as the difference between E.T. and War of the Worlds.

Well said. Burton's Gotham was a lot more visually interesting. It was just so German Expressionistic and a visual delight. Begins was Chicago at night with some brown filters, which is all the more odd since Nolan made the crew watch Blade Runner as inspiration for the cinematography in Begins. What makes it even stranger is that Burton's looks much more like Blade Runner than Begins.

Also, regarding nostalgia, the flip side of the coin is that a lot of people are too young to remember Batman '89 and old enough to remember the Schumacher ones. So, while some people like the nostalgia factor of Batman '89, some people like Batman Begins because it's new and Batman is dark again.

As a lifelong Batman fan, free from any nostalgia, Batman '89 is the better film. It feels more like a pure Batman movie. Batman Begins feels like Nolan's vision of the character, and also feels like some decisions were made purely to separate itself from the Schumacher movies, whether good or bad. Now don't get me wrong, Batman Begins is a good film. It also has a lot of flaws, moreso than Batman '89. I'm toying around with the idea of making a list to compare what Batman 89' got right and wrong and what Begins got right and wrong.

 

[CConn]

When I watch them side by side, I prefer Batman '89. It's not really nostalgia either, it's just a very entertaining movie that I can watch time after time. Batman Begins is a good film, but it doesn't come across as very fun. And when I say fun, I mean an imaginative entertaining piece that you can watch as both a child and an adult, so don't even try to bring up B&R.

The difference between Batman '89 and Batman Begins is the same as the difference between E.T. and War of the Worlds.

Agreed.

Nostalgia does play a big part in just how much I love B89, but even without it, I still prefer it to BB.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Nostolgia only plays a factor in how I rank the film in my personal favorites list. BATMAN is my #1 favorite film of all time. Although my "favorites" list and my "best" list are quite different, as I think the truly best film ever made is To Kill a Mockingbird, but that's a whole other argument altogether.

While it is true that B89 was not my introduction to the character (the 1989 reruns of the Adam West series was), B89 is what made me into a hardcore Batfan. You would think that would make me go easy on the film, but it doesn't. If I'd made the film, I would have definitely made a few small changes. But in the end, despite how I like Batman Begins in a lot of ways, BATMAN is just the definitive Batman film. For all that it accomplished and for as perfect a conglomation of the source material it is. Every change that Burton made, he has very valid artistic decisions behind. Add to that that his changes do work for their intended purposes, and I don't see that Burton haters have a leg to stand on.

Nostolgia has no effect on my decision as a hardcore, lifelong fan of Batman. BATMAN is simply the better film. Not to knock the good parts of BB, but B89 still hasn't been beaten.

 

[Penismightier]

Nostolgia only plays a factor in how I rank the film in my personal favorites list. BATMAN is my #1 favorite film of all time. Although my "favorites" list and my "best" list are quite different, as I think the truly best film ever made is To Kill a Mockingbird, but that's a whole other argument altogether.

While it is true that B89 was not my introduction to the character (the 1989 reruns of the Adam West series was), B89 is what made me into a hardcore Batfan. You would think that would make me go easy on the film, but it doesn't. If I'd made the film, I would have definitely made a few small changes. But in the end, despite how I like Batman Begins in a lot of ways, BATMAN is just the definitive Batman film. For all that it accomplished and for as perfect a conglomation of the source material it is. Every change that Burton made, he has very valid artistic decisions behind. Add to that that his changes do work for their intended purposes, and I don't see that Burton haters have a leg to stand on.

Nostolgia has no effect on my decision as a hardcore, lifelong fan of Batman. BATMAN is simply the better film. Not to knock the good parts of BB, but B89 still hasn't been beaten.

I think the most important thing you said there was that Burton's changes were all valid, artistic decisions. Without getting into details, some of the changes in Begins, well ,weren't.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

You don't like them, doesn't make them crap.

Ok, let me rivise that. The reast are crap. In my opinion. Ok?

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

When I watch them side by side, I prefer Batman '89. It's not really nostalgia either, it's just a very entertaining movie that I can watch time after time. Batman Begins is a good film, but it doesn't come across as very fun. And when I say fun, I mean an imaginative entertaining piece that you can watch as both a child and an adult, so don't even try to bring up B&R.

The difference between Batman '89 and Batman Begins is the same as the difference between E.T. and War of the Worlds.

Bingo! BB just doesn't capture the imagination or the eye as much as B89. B89 is just more fun. Its nicer to look at, and presents many questions in the mind, instead of spelling themes out, or trying to hammer them into the head like BB does.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Well said. Burton's Gotham was a lot more visually interesting. It was just so German Expressionistic and a visual delight. Begins was Chicago at night with some brown filters, which is all the more odd since Nolan made the crew watch Blade Runner as inspiration for the cinematography in Begins. What makes it even stranger is that Burton's looks much more like Blade Runner than Begins.

Also, regarding nostalgia, the flip side of the coin is that a lot of people are too young to remember Batman '89 and old enough to remember the Schumacher ones. So, while some people like the nostalgia factor of Batman '89, some people like Batman Begins because it's new and Batman is dark again.

As a lifelong Batman fan, free from any nostalgia, Batman '89 is the better film. It feels more like a pure Batman movie. Batman Begins feels like Nolan's vision of the character, and also feels like some decisions were made purely to separate itself from the Schumacher movies, whether good or bad. Now don't get me wrong, Batman Begins is a good film. It also has a lot of flaws, moreso than Batman '89. I'm toying around with the idea of making a list to compare what Batman 89' got right and wrong and what Begins got right and wrong.

Yes.
I agree completely. Gotham just doesn't look like Gotham to me in BB. Its clear Chicago. I feel the reralism aspect went too far in places as well, and really hampered the villains for instance.

BB just seems like a collection of fanboy comic moments rather than a fresh and unique look at the character from the directors own vision. It ticks all the boxs, but it feels kind of souless next to B89.

 

[fabman]

I LOVE 'em both, BATMAN and BATMAN BEGINS.

 

[GoogleMe94]

love this shot, but doesnt it remind you of the castle in walt disney world?

 

[GoogleMe94]

Yes.
I agree completely. Gotham just doesn't look like Gotham to me in BB. Its clear Chicago. I feel the reralism aspect went too far in places as well, and really hampered the villains for instance.

BB just seems like a collection of fanboy comic moments rather than a fresh and unique look at the character from the directors own vision. It ticks all the boxs, but it feels kind of souless next to B89.

Totally Agreed. i far prefer B89 and even batman returns to the nolan movie, which comes in 3rd on the list because while it made batman dark and serious again, it just wasnt nearly as fun or entertaing as burtons take on the character. i like what burton did with the sequel too, he didnt just do the same ol' thing he did in B89, he did something yet again that was fresh and unique, and different from the first film. i love burtons style, he contstantly doing something different with his films, he doesnt just do the same thing he did before. so far, TDK looks to be just more of the same they did with BB, kinda like with the spiderman films, they are really just one big story rather then a completely new thing.

 

[Penismightier]

Yes.
I agree completely. Gotham just doesn't look like Gotham to me in BB. Its clear Chicago. I feel the reralism aspect went too far in places as well, and really hampered the villains for instance.

BB just seems like a collection of fanboy comic moments rather than a fresh and unique look at the character from the directors own vision. It ticks all the boxs, but it feels kind of souless next to B89.

A lot of Nolan's work seems soulless at times. It's almost as if he gives us a window to view his characters, but doesn't know or doesn't care why we should care about them. And if he doesn't know why we should care, why should an audience care?

 

[Gianakin_]

I've come to consider notalgia a very unfair factor when judging a movie. Big, story, it started with Star Wars debates.
I saw B89 in 1992, a few weeks before BR came out. I remember liking it. That was all. Then, I saw BR (I was 7) in the cinema. It blew my mind away. Maybe the tragic romance with Catwoman, maybe the even cooler factor of Keaton, maybe the Penguin scaring me in a good way? I don't know.
As the years have passed, my opinion has changed about these films. It is not very often that I will just watch B89, but I still will just watch BR. This time, it's only the Catwoman/ Selina factor. The opinions and personal taste that I have formed over the years has led me to appreciate Nolan's approach more. Don't ask why, I'm more satisfied with fully explaining WAyne as opposed to leaving Batman as a totally mysterious character, explaining things visually AND through dialogue, explanations (NOT realism).
There are many films that I've grown up with, that are now rebooted or sequalized, and most times I prefer the new stuff. Why? It just happens. I like the Prequels more, BB more, but I do like the old Die Hard films more than no4 (ok, maybe it's better than no2).
Artistically, Burton is a genius. As a storyteller, as well. A fantasy-type storyteller. It's just that I appreciate the other approach more, I'm just not that kind of person. I'll be entertained, but that's it. I became a hardcore Batman fan after BB, even though I'd watch BR more often than just occasionally. It just ticks for me more, you know?

 

[Cyrusbales]

Watched Batman again last night(actually early this morning if we're being technical), and as I review each film I watch, here it goes(This is not a comparative review, but looking at the film as a single filmic entity):



Batman,released in 1989 became an instant contemporary classic, receiving such reverence as “The movie of the decade”, featuring some of the most iconic scenes in modern cinema, as well as legendary performances from it’s cast. Often classed as the pinnacle of comic book adaptations, Tim Burton’s film is truly unmissable.

Gotham city, terrorised by crime and poverty is in the midst of something new. Reports of the “Batman” have flooded across the city, thugs being punished by this mysterious avenger. As investigations into him continue, another character steps on the scene, the betrayed psycho Jack Napier soon appears, who causes much mayhem and chaos as the new head of crime, now only known as the Joker.

An approach unique at the time was taken with this film, rather than positioning the audience directly with the central character throughout the film, Tim Burton made the decision to explore Batman through others, perpetuating the notion of mystery and myth that surrounds this creation. This furthers the concept of his own psychological issues and turmoil, which is further enhanced when the Joker comes on the scene, which then shifts our audience perspective to that of Batman’s, who is focused intently on this menace.

In terms of performances, Jack Nicholson’s portrayal of the Joker is often classed as one of his best, and has become something of an institute of cinema, often being paid homage to in other mediums and films. Michael Keaton infuses the movie with a darker essence, even the supposed good guy here is most assuredly brooding and psychologically unwell. Other supporting characters help create an array of tones and moods, to make the film feel much more of a whole.

Direction here is definitely pivotal, providing something mesmeric on screen. Tim Burton provides an extensive social commentary throughout the movie, drawing respective parallels between our world and Gotham, looking at aspects of the media as well as the notion of ethics, tied up neatly with the postmodernist concept of how we construct our identity. All this is bathed in sumptuous darkness, with great focus on lighting and some fantastic framing throughout.

However, this film is not without it’s faults, at times the dialogue seems a little hollow with a few moments of incongruence within it’s character’s behaviour. Kim Basinger’s development as Vicky Vale is near perfect all over, yet her final jump in characterisation seems unprovoked and unsound.

Danny Elfman provides an enchanting soundscape for Gotham city, with an instantly recognisable score that generates much within the viewer. Set designs favour the original version of Batman from the comic books, giving us a Gotham city steeped with many decades of architecture and culture, further putting across some of Tim Burton’s messages about society as well as paying a massive tribute to Fritz Lang’s unrelenting masterpiece ‘Metropolis’.

Overall, Batman is one of the ‘must see’ films from the last few decades, handled with swathes of quality from every angle, it clearly is a massive cut above the general level of cinema. Whilst a very good film, it is of course not perfect, however the uniquely fantastical world portrayed is often the topic of discussion within critical film circles and with the rest of it’s elements, has earned this film a classic status.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Great review, Cyrusbales. Singling out some weaker points in B'89 was important in making it balanced and fair. Some who will call themselves critics and whatnot can't grasp that proper critique etiquette.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Thanks, I used to do reviews for websites and stuff, now I just do it for myself on my myspace blog.

 

[BubbaGump]

I get nostalgic watching Batman Returns.