MOTP or TDK?

[Kevin Roegele]

As the movie itself goes she does kill the Joker. At the very least she makes the decision to. I like TNBA, Beyond and JLU, but I consider BTAS-MotP its own thing, and BTAS-Beyond/the entire DCAU, another.

Just like if you only like Spiderman and Spiderman 2 and hate SM3, you can consider that in the first two films Sandman is not Uncle Ben's killer. In SM3 and everything that may come after it, you can't do that. Considering MotP and its place in the DCAU as a whole, Joker survived.

You can still watch MotP and consider that Andrea does kill the Joker, since that movie entirely implies that she does. I do, and I can bench press like a million pounds.

The point is not whether she kills him or not, she's finally engulfed by the moral darkness that the Joker inhabits, and Batman just manages to escape it. Watch it with the sound off. It's literally and physically what happens.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

As the movie itself goes she does kill the Joker. At the very least she makes the decision to. I like TNBA, Beyond and JLU, but I consider BTAS-MotP its own thing, and BTAS-Beyond/the entire DCAU, another.

Just like if you only like Spiderman and Spiderman 2 and hate SM3, you can consider that in the first two films Sandman is not Uncle Ben's killer. In SM3 and everything that may come after it, you can't do that. Considering MotP and its place in the DCAU as a whole, Joker survived.

You can still watch MotP and consider that Andrea does kill the Joker, since that movie entirely implies that she does. I do, and I can bench press like a million pounds.

I think she wanted bruce to think she did but coming face to face with the joker realised that he actually played no malice part in the hit and was just the dirty man of the mob.

Killing him wouldn't relieve the emptyness and being around bruce would make her realise that she truelly is lonely (it's hard to realise it when you're caught up in revenge) which is why she said 'I am alone' right at the end, it was the first time she noticed. She just used him as a scapegoat to leave bruce.

It's probably why she became a hitman to keep herself busy.

 

[ReTrO JuNkIe 42]

I think its great that motp gets love here, alot of people look at TAS of batman, superman and spidey for that matter and brush it off as a kids cartoon with out much depth much like Hollywood has done for comic book movies, but these stories some times tell it so much better then live action films

 

[DACrowe]

Badass post.. One other thing.

LONG before TDK ever came out I have said there are about two or three on-screen romances that I took seriously. Romeo and Juliet, Snake and Meryl, and Bruce and Andrea.

Really that's it? No Rick and Ilsa? Rhett and Scarlet? Bonnie and Clyde? Harry and Sally? Michael and Kay? Harold and Maude? Boogie and Becall? Tracy and Hehpburn? etc.

I'm just wondering as Sanke and Meryl was always kind of forced and funny in its immediate seriousness and melodrama.

Anyway the best and most authentic relationship I've seen in a Baman movie is Bruce and Selina in Batman Returns. Just the characters I thought felt a little more honest in their own weirdness and the ending is somewhat like that in MOTP. Albeit that final shot of MOTP is indeed quite epic. Andrea was a great character, but I don't think even when she came back that there was any chance Batman was ever going to give up his mission.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

The Dark Knight by a land slide. The metaphorically meanings and relevance of the story of TDK alone put it on a whole nother platform from an intelligence level. There is no comparison.

 

[El Payaso]

TDK.

TAS was never truly something that special for me.

 

[UltimateJustin]

The Dark Knight by a land slide. The metaphorically meanings and relevance of the story of TDK alone put it on a whole nother platform from an intelligence level. There is no comparison.

Yeah, it's the metaphorically meanings and that whole nother platform that make TDK so slammin'.

DACrowe, I don't know those characters. Some of them aren't even from games/cartoons, I don't think.

True, it's not the point whether she kills him but the movie ends with that suggestion anyway, or at least ambiguously so that she could have.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

TDK.

TAS was never truly something that special for me.

Like I thought.

 

[El Payaso]

Like I thought.

I always choose the best. That didn't really need a lot of thought.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

TDK.

TAS was never truly something that special for me.

That's kinda a shame you feel that way. We've always had the impression that the mission to be batman was too important for bruce but here we see him willing to give it all up before he starts and he loses hope again. he lost the hope of parental love as a child, now he loses the chance of being loved as a husband and evidently as a father (or so he believes).

It's a bitter pill that pushes bruce into the unrecognisable character.

It makes a change to see him so vunlerable.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

Really that's it? No Rick and Ilsa? Rhett and Scarlet? Bonnie and Clyde? Harry and Sally? Michael and Kay? Harold and Maude? Boogie and Becall? Tracy and Hehpburn? etc.

I'm just wondering as Sanke and Meryl was always kind of forced and funny in its immediate seriousness and melodrama.

Anyway the best and most authentic relationship I've seen in a Baman movie is Bruce and Selina in Batman Returns. Just the characters I thought felt a little more honest in their own weirdness and the ending is somewhat like that in MOTP. Albeit that final shot of MOTP is indeed quite epic. Andrea was a great character, but I don't think even when she came back that there was any chance Batman was ever going to give up his mission.

You know, to save her, I think he would have given up being bats but ultimately saving himself as well. It was another last glimmering chance but this time she was too far gone to be saved. It was that door closing that ultimately made it impossible for any other woman in tas to get in. In fact any other person except for alfred.

as for batman returns, the relationship would have been better if it was properly fleshed out, It seemed they were both kinda lustful for one another. It didnt play out properly for me as catwoman is supposed to like batman yet bruce is supposed to like selina and their alter egos stop them getting together because they hate one another.#

In the film it was hero identities hate, dual identities love. It's strange but it worked but without any long term chemistry between them, I believe the andrea relationship had better legs.

i will say though bruce and selina is the best motion superhero relationship, followed closely by bruce and betty in ang's (i said it).

 

[DACrowe]

The thing about Bruce and Selina was they were perfect for each other. They were both kind of split personalities and incomplete (and nuts). Their lustfulness was just them realizing hat. They just fit together perfectly and while their hero identities fought (and lusted) for each other, they just seemed so complimentary in the dance scene to each other and they had what it took to make each other happy and "normal."

The ending is great. Bruce could not find the words to tell Vicky how he felt or who he was and even though he liked Vicky and toyed with the notion of giving it up, he never came close and was still always somewhat uncomfortable around her. With Selina he was calm and found some sanity. At the end without any stuttering or awkwardness he reveals his identity (in front of Max Shreck no less!) in an attempt to save her and himself. He was in that Andrea situation, if you will. He thought he could save Selina and they could live together if she would just take him. But like Andrea, she was too far gone and hungry for revenge. She has lost herself to the monster and Bruce fails to save Shreck and loses Selina forever (somewhat similar to how he didn't give Vicky a chance).

Actually there is a lot of similarities between Selina and Andrea in these two interpretations. I prefer the Selina one. I understand as Andrea was there from the beginning and and since TAS only got better after that movie and drove home the point made in that movie to the point of a bitter old man and BR was followed up by two crappy sequels, I can see the preference for Andrea. But exclusively left to their films, I think there was some deeper humanity between Bruce and Selina, even if Andrea cut TAS Bruce much deeper (albeit the ending to BR was incredibly dark, who knows what would have happened if Burton returned).

 

[UltimateJustin]

The thing about Bruce and Selina was they were perfect for each other. They were both kind of split personalities and incomplete (and nuts). Their lustfulness was just them realizing hat. They just fit together perfectly and while their hero identities fought (and lusted) for each other, they just seemed so complimentary in the dance scene to each other and they had what it took to make each other happy and "normal."

The ending is great. Bruce could not find the words to tell Vicky how he felt or who he was and even though he liked Vicky and toyed with the notion of giving it up, he never came close and was still always somewhat uncomfortable around her. With Selina he was calm and found some sanity. At the end without any stuttering or awkwardness he reveals his identity (in front of Max Shreck no less!) in an attempt to save her and himself. He was in that Andrea situation, if you will. He thought he could save Selina and they could live together if she would just take him. But like Andrea, she was too far gone and hungry for revenge. She has lost herself to the monster and Bruce fails to save Shreck and loses Selina forever (somewhat similar to how he didn't give Vicky a chance).

Actually there is a lot of similarities between Selina and Andrea in these two interpretations. I prefer the Selina one. I understand as Andrea was there from the beginning and and since TAS only got better after that movie and drove home the point made in that movie to the point of a bitter old man and BR was followed up by two crappy sequels, I can see the preference for Andrea. But exclusively left to their films, I think there was some deeper humanity between Bruce and Selina, even if Andrea cut TAS Bruce much deeper (albeit the ending to BR was incredibly dark, who knows what would have happened if Burton returned).

That was also a tight post worthy of some icons:

 

[November Rain]

The thing about Bruce and Selina was they were perfect for each other. They were both kind of split personalities and incomplete (and nuts). Their lustfulness was just them realizing hat. They just fit together perfectly and while their hero identities fought (and lusted) for each other, they just seemed so complimentary in the dance scene to each other and they had what it took to make each other happy and "normal."

The ending is great. Bruce could not find the words to tell Vicky how he felt or who he was and even though he liked Vicky and toyed with the notion of giving it up, he never came close and was still always somewhat uncomfortable around her. With Selina he was calm and found some sanity. At the end without any stuttering or awkwardness he reveals his identity (in front of Max Shreck no less!) in an attempt to save her and himself. He was in that Andrea situation, if you will. He thought he could save Selina and they could live together if she would just take him. But like Andrea, she was too far gone and hungry for revenge. She has lost herself to the monster and Bruce fails to save Shreck and loses Selina forever (somewhat similar to how he didn't give Vicky a chance).

Actually there is a lot of similarities between Selina and Andrea in these two interpretations. I prefer the Selina one. I understand as Andrea was there from the beginning and and since TAS only got better after that movie and drove home the point made in that movie to the point of a bitter old man and BR was followed up by two crappy sequels, I can see the preference for Andrea. But exclusively left to their films, I think there was some deeper humanity between Bruce and Selina, even if Andrea cut TAS Bruce much deeper (albeit the ending to BR was incredibly dark, who knows what would have happened if Burton returned).

I would say though i never felt that selina was ever going to save bruce wayne from batman which i felt bruce was willing to allow on at least to occasions with andrea.

the reveal of the mask with max is kinda irrelevant considering they had both worked out who each other were earlier on in the film.

bruce and selina would have carried on with their incomplete lives together as a single unit, batman, catwoman, bruce and selina all under one roof.

andrea is the only one i've ever felt that would have bruce put down the batman mantle, i mean the dude went to talk to his dead parents, that's pretty deep. Or maybe he was just a younger man who was more vulnerable to the persuasions of the heart.

I guess it depend on what your definition of a happy bruce is, personally i could never see bruce as being truly happy while still being batman which is why andrea gets it for me. Saying this though, having someone to share the batman nightlife aspect with could be somewhat beneficial and that may make it less of a obsessive mission for him.

swings and roundabouts i suppose. I will say it's good to get two decent love interests into a movie genre, its kinda a shame rachel never added up to selina or andrea but two out of three isn't bad. Some films are still trying to get one...

 

[DACrowe]

I would say though i never felt that selina was ever going to save bruce wayne from batman which i felt bruce was willing to allow on at least to occasions with andrea.

the reveal of the mask with max is kinda irrelevant considering they had both worked out who each other were earlier on in the film.

bruce and selina would have carried on with their incomplete lives together as a single unit, batman, catwoman, bruce and selina all under one roof.

andrea is the only one i've ever felt that would have bruce put down the batman mantle, i mean the dude went to talk to his dead parents, that's pretty deep. Or maybe he was just a younger man who was more vulnerable to the persuasions of the heart.

I guess it depend on what your definition of a happy bruce is, personally i could never see bruce as being truly happy while still being batman which is why andrea gets it for me. Saying this though, having someone to share the batman nightlife aspect with could be somewhat beneficial and that may make it less of a obsessive mission for him.

swings and roundabouts i suppose. I will say it's good to get two decent love interests into a movie genre, its kinda a shame rachel never added up to selina or andrea but two out of three isn't bad. Some films are still trying to get one...

I see what you're saying. But I think the unmasking was important. Yes, Bruce and Selina had already realized who each other were. But it is what it means to Bruce to unmask.

He knows she won't listen to the Batman personality as she sees it as oppressive and he wants her to speak to Bruce and not Batman. It is the only time in the Burton films we ever see Bruce in the Burton Batman films in the suit without the mask. It is the only time we see both personalities merged into one being instead of one entity. He is combining them into one person to try and reach Selina. He is almost sane there and he takes his mask off to reveal himself to her, which he never did. To Vicky he could never say "I'm Batman" and calm his nerves. He was always stuttering and mumbling and looking really awkward in his skin, as being Bruce was uncomfortable for him and showing his weirdness to someone is even moreso.

With Selina there is no hesitation. On top of that he did it in front of Max Shreck who he wants to take to jail. Think about it. He is done with the revenge angle and doesn't want Selina following his footsteps. He says the law applies to them and they'll take Shreck to jail (yeah like that charge will stick ) and "go home together."

Shreck would scream his head off on who is Batman and Catwoman and that would make their night time activities really different if it were the case. But Selina knew they couldn't, or at least she couldn't, be that "normal" again and she had lost her mind to this cat being she created.