National Day of Repentance! (Warning: Spoiler)

By the way, the American Government founded the country on Christian principles and included God in the constitution so there has always been a preference.
Common misconception. They did not include God in the Constitution, they said "Nature's God" which is a reference to a dietistic diety used by natural rightists. It's basically another way of saying "natural". And while Christianity was part of many colonialists lives, the founding father's were secular progressives...and one of the major streams of thought that existed amongst elites of that day was that it was unwise to let commoners know that God didn't really exist.
 
The plain and simple fact is that many people in this country and elsewhere want a world without any sort of boundaries. They want to do what they want, how they want, when they want, to whoever they want, and never have to face any consequences or answer to anyone about it. In the U.S., we are granted by the Constitution a freedom of religion, not a freedom from religion.

My post above addresses this, as it is actually both. The establishment clause prevents the government from enforcing or endorsing any specific religion through legislation. (Freedom from the government touting one religion) The free exercise clause guarantees the right of individuals to practice any faith. (Freedom and right of choosing a religion personally.)
 
I'm not worked up...? It is an area that I've studied/discussed for years and is incredibly interesting to me as a debate.

Did I single you out or in any way imply that you were freaking out?

Personally I see both sides. This country does have freedom of religion but it was founded on christian practices and principals. The laws and structure themselves are extremely influenced by christianity so unless you scratch everything and start fresh there's always gonna be a bias.

Hey, I'd like to see Taoism get a little freaking respect but here we are.
 
PS- Slavery was interpretively legal under the constitution, originally, and was practiced widely at the time of the founding fathers. Just because that's how it was, does not make it right.

Correct. Did the founding Fathers not include language that all men were created equal in the constitution?

I would suggest that while they were addressing various issues of social concerns within the constitution Runt, they had included language that would address slavery in the future.

My point was not slavery however. It was about who the "highest power" was and that they wanted to include God in the future of your country.

There were other religions at the time and they did not include or favour those when they founded your country.

You can argue the various idealogical views of the founding fathers, their values and social issues of the day.

My point was that your country has always included Christian Tenets and a "God" in your governmental system.

It should not be a surprise that a government today has decided to include a day of "repentance" as a idea or movement if they have always had influence from the Christian Religion.

Your president's have had "pastoral" advisors, including Clinton over the last 4 decades, so again how is this not part of your cultural fabric for your government?

There has never been a true seperation of Church and State within your country.
 
I find it interesting that when your government chooses to do something like this, everyone jumps to claim that the US does not have or should not have a preference to one religion over the other; however the Government of the United States at the inception of the Country tried to install portions of the Christian Religion and a belief in God into the constitution.

Again, that was my point about your country's historical preference and I was trying to indicate that if you have a long history of "favoring" one religion over the other why are people surprised or offended when a government of the day decides to "celebrate" or "endorse" a tenet of that faith?

Unfortunately, a long standing tradition does not a right action make.
 
He used terminology that was appropriate for the time actually Jag. He told people that they had to repent of their sins. Whether human institutions and groups have interpreted that their own way is a different point.

My point was that you claimed to follow his ways and yet you are arguing against repentance.

That was my point.

Ahh, but I never claimed to follow ALL of his ways. You really don't see the irony of someone acting holier than thou in a thread like this because they are a Christian and then in the same breath calling everyone "a bunch of f**kers"?

If people call others names it reflects poor manners more than anything else.

Agreed

I find it interesting that when your government chooses to do something like this, everyone jumps to claim that the US does not have or should not have a preference to one religion over the other; however the Government of the United States at the inception of the Country tried to install portions of the Christian Religion and a belief in God into the constitution.

They also tried to instill portions of Paganism and Masonic beliefs into the constitution.

Again, that was my point about your country's historical preference and I was trying to indicate that if you have a long history of "favoring" one religion over the other why are people surprised or offended when a government of the day decides to "celebrate" or "endorse" a tenet of that faith?

History shows that your country has the historical preference or "favoring" of the one religion over all others.

Just because there is historical precedent of it doesn't make it any more right, as LogansRunt already pointed out with her slavery example.

The current thinking of Freedom of religion and state or seperation of State and Church is not consistent with your country's founding tradition.

IMO.

Cr.

Oh, I believe it is. The founders of this country came here to escape persecution over their beliefs and tried to create a country where people could believe what they wanted to without being harassed by their government. I'd say that spirit is very much alive in the sentiment about keeping church and state separated.

jag
 
Did I single you out or in any way imply that you were freaking out?

I know you didn't single me out, but you said 'people' and I consider myself a person. Also, as only one person I can't respond for all the 'people' you addressed. Thus I responded as I did.
 
I think everyone's just enjoying arguing it conceptually more than anything. Are you really max?

jag
Maxwell's is at LSP
HAha

And yes, it's sad that he can't claim ownership of the name because it feels blasphemous when md says...........................uh..............very "Un-Maxwell's Demon"-ish things under that banner. :(
 
Maxwell's is at LSP
HAha

And yes, it's sad that he can't claim ownership of the name because it feels blasphemous when md says...........................uh..............very "Un-Maxwell's Demon"-ish things under that banner. :(

It's a mathematical theory, James Maxwell is the only person who can claim ownership.
 
Maxwell's is at LSP
HAha

And yes, it's sad that he can't claim ownership of the name because it feels blasphemous when md says...........................uh..............very "Un-Maxwell's Demon"-ish things under that banner. :(

I miss Max. And Daisy. But not enough to go over there. :o

jag
 
I know you didn't single me out, but you said 'people' and I consider myself a person. Also, as only one person I can't respond for all the 'people' you addressed. Thus I responded as I did.

Women aren't people.
 
Common misconception. They did not include God in the Constitution, they said "Nature's God" which is a reference to a dietistic diety used by natural rightists. It's basically another way of saying "natural". And while Christianity was part of many colonialists lives, the founding father's were secular progressives...and one of the major streams of thought that existed amongst elites of that day was that it was unwise to let commoners know that God didn't really exist.

Right.

You may want to check your facts on the faiths and beliefs of your founding fathers ...

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm
 
As far as I know, Jefferson and Franklin were the only ones who did not openly endorse Christian influences in the American government, though even they believed in God (they were deists).
 
Again you show the world your awesome power to respond to what I've said by saying what I've said in a different way!:up:

wow you're kinda obsessed with me. flattering but disturbing.

I was actually saying something different than you. You were talking about some poster, I was talking about James Maxwell the mathematician from the late 1800's and originator of the term. I'm pretty sure they're not the same person.

Maybe before you might think to ask before assuming.
 
The quotes are real. I doubt anyone actually makes up or fabricated hudreds of quotes just to back their sources.

I was simply pointing out that it wasn't the strongest research. It would be much more convincing coming from any sort of non-religiously oriented website, especially to non-Christians. :yay:
 
Still doesn't make it right, or legal under the constitution as it stands today, amended from the time of the Founding Fathers.

It is a fact. It is not a question of right or wrong.

You can argue that it is wrong, but they founded it that way for a reason.

You may not like it now, but I would suggest that you consider the alternatives that exist elsewhere in the world. While a government promoting a "Christian" perspective may not be your cup of tea, you are at least free to question the government.

It may not be your ideal, but it beats a radical muslim state that uses Shariya law and beheads its citizens. It also beats a dictatorship or a state such as China which can do many things to you economically or politically.

My point was that you need to have a historical perspective and that perhaps while you might not like what they are doing, considering the other options that exist in the world, perhaps it is a system that at least allows the debate to exist in the first place.

People who claim to be followers of Christ are simply that. People.

The government is choosing (because of the current administration) to do something that they feel is in the best interests of the country. While you may not agree, you at least have that option.

The bible has a great example of someone who defied Governmental decree over religion because he choose to follow his god. Daniel. Perhaps that may not be a good example but it does illustrate that a government can try to enforce something and God (whether you believe in him or not) expects us to exhert our own "faith" muscles regardless of what a "government" says.

Just saying.

Cr.
 
That's sure an unbiased source you've got there.

The point is that you can read for yourself their thoughts on government and faith.

If you want further research you can pick up lots of books and more importantly biographies of those individuals that will show you their intent.

I may be a Canadian, but I do have an ability to offer an opinion into your discussions and I was trying to provide a reference for your insight.

As well I had hoped that being a Canadian I was able to offer an observer's opinion on this subject Jag.:whatever:

Cr. :oldrazz: :woot:
 
As well I had hoped that being a Canadian I was able to offer an observer's opinion on this subject Jag.:whatever:

As an agnostic, I will pray for your country's socialized medicine system to develop a procedure that will allow them to give you a funny bone transplant because the one you have no worky-worky anymore. :oldrazz:

jag
 
It is a fact. It is not a question of right or wrong.

You can argue that it is wrong, but they founded it that way for a reason.

You may not like it now, but I would suggest that you consider the alternatives that exist elsewhere in the world. While a government promoting a "Christian" perspective may not be your cup of tea, you are at least free to question the government.

It may not be your ideal, but it beats a radical muslim state that uses Shariya law and beheads its citizens. It also beats a dictatorship or a state such as China which can do many things to you economically or politically.

My point was that you need to have a historical perspective and that perhaps while you might not like what they are doing, considering the other options that exist in the world, perhaps it is a system that at least allows the debate to exist in the first place.

People who claim to be followers of Christ are simply that. People.

The government is choosing (because of the current administration) to do something that they feel is in the best interests of the country. While you may not agree, you at least have that option.

The bible has a great example of someone who defied Governmental decree over religion because he choose to follow his god. Daniel. Perhaps that may not be a good example but it does illustrate that a government can try to enforce something and God (whether you believe in him or not) expects us to exhert our own "faith" muscles regardless of what a "government" says.

Just saying.

Cr.

To me, it is very much a question of right and wrong. As the constitution was amended and laws changed because slavery was realized to be wrong, though not illegal.

I very much know that this is a small infraction compared to the atrocities of other governments, but that's not really part of this debate. Perspective, yes, but part of the question at hand, no.

I don't contribute all the successes of the American government on its argued Christian foundings. That is giving way too much credit to any role Christianity may have played.

And I do understand the need for an historical perspective on these types of things, but that perspective includes many instances where the traditions of the government were perceived to be wrong morally by the people and measures were taken to change it-- which is what my side of the debate is arguing to do. It is a fine line between honoring the wisdom of those before us and realizing antiquated beliefs about the world and humanity's role in it. That is what debates like this are about- working on defining that line, and is what we should be doing.

I don't understand why people keep bringing up examples of people winning out in the right to practice their religion despite governmental oppression. That's not what this supposed situation is about. Its about the government enforcing a religion on the people, not the other way around. (Well, in a way, its about people like me winning the right to practice their non-religion despite governmental oppression, I suppose, but that's a stretch). :huh:

Believe me, I totally understand the privileges I have by living in this country, and am grateful. But I also understand my duty as a citizen to intellectually challenge the government when I perceive an infraction.
 

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