Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

[WorthyStevens]

Scene 1 isn't 'I hate my wings', it's him fearing his family's reaction, trying to live up to his father's expectations.

It's a combination of both. Just like in the comics.

 

[newwaveboy87]

He seemed to like being with his new friends nonetheless, he came in handy and they liked having him around and they got along great. Then he's suddenly gone without a parting remark? A bit sloppy.


I deal with them enough to understand the concept behind:

"what's wrong?"

"nothing."

However at the same time I believe you're trying to draw things out too much. I don't believe that scene and other scenes were meant to be that intelligent and deep. That would be giving the writers too much credit.

Nightcrawler's allegiance always seemed, to me anyway, to be with the church. he just got caught up in the events of X2 and had to help the X-Men. once that was said and done, he most likely kept in touch, but didn't join the X-Men.

i think you're not giving them enough credit. or perhaps Ellen Page added things that weren't there. and, seeing as how ALL of my closest/dearest friends are teenage girls, or in their early-20s i know EXACTLY what they're like. that scene was obviously a moment of: "What's wrong?" "It's nothing."

 

[X-Maniac]

He seemed to like being with his new friends nonetheless, he came in handy and they liked having him around and they got along great. Then he's suddenly gone without a parting remark? A bit sloppy.

I don't think it was 'sloppy' - it was a deliberate decision. The writers themselves said that to include mention of it would open up too many questions, it would be too random to bring the subject up. (Just as Nightcrawler's blood tie to Mystique in X2 was never mentioned). I'm not justifying it, as i like Nightcrawler and would have liked to see more, but I can understand why they did what they did.

I deal with them enough to understand the concept behind:

"what's wrong?"

"nothing."

However at the same time I believe you're trying to draw things out too much. I don't believe that scene and other scenes were meant to be that intelligent and deep. That would be giving the writers too much credit.

Well, i don't think you are giving them enough credit. There was a lot of depth in that scene. She felt a sense of loss, she was trying not to admit it, she mentioned Xavier had been the one to recruit her to the school, that sense of loss obviously made her miss home, her missing the snow (something familiar, something she enjoyed, something that made her feel happy) obviously was linked to Iceman creating a wintry scene (like her home?) outside to make her feel a bit less down.

 

[BMM]

what happened to Toad and Sabretooth between X1 and X2?
they're never mentioned. Magneto never says anything of their fates. nothing. they just disappeared.

and, obviously, Kitty was lying about the real reason she was crying. seeing as how she pauses before saying the line about the snow back home and that scene happens the night of Xaiver's funeral.

Sabretooth and Toad are mere villains that come and go as mere villains always do. They are members of a mutant terrorist group that are put out of commission by the X-Men at Liberty Island. As is illustrated at the end of the movie, the authorities arrive and come upon the out of commission Brotherhood members.

Also, why would Magneto or Mystique know of Sabretooth and Toad’s whereabouts? Magneto is immediately arrested and placed into isolation, while Mystique must lie in wait in disguise. Even Mystique does not initially have access to Magneto because she is unsure of his whereabouts. The same can easily be said for Sabretooth and Toad.

Unlike mere villains who are thwarted and put out of commission, Nightcrawler is a character given more breadth and depth than most. His character maintains more of a purpose than either Sabretooth or Toad, and by the end of X2, he is heavily involved with the X-Men and perhaps a possible member. So what happens to the memorable fan favorite?

Well... I don't know if they all really knew Scott was dead for a while - he rode off almost as though leaving for good, Wolverine found his glasses, he challenged Jean and she couldn't answer, no one except Xavier seemed truly aware of what happened and Xavier died with that knowledge (no one heard what he said to Jean about killing the man she loved, apart from Magneto)... I don't think Xavier was annoyed that Scott was broken up, there was no annoyance in the dialogue.

Jean answers. Upon being questioned about Scott, she breaks down, saying, “Kill me before I kill someone else.” Although not necessarily the quickest of the bunch, Wolverine is not a total idiot. It is quite obvious what is being said here.

I thought Angel had a good introduction, equivalent to Nightcrawler's role in X2.

Which scene? Angel as a child, or Angel as an adult? Regardless, I don’t find either to be on par with Nightcrawler’s introduction or role in X2. Nightcrawler is simply better handled.

I can understand why it was easier to NOT mention Nightcrawler, as that too opens up a box of questions/issues. There was no move towards joining the X-Men in X2, he stood alongside them (not in their midst) at the end in the president's office, he was never in an X-uniform, he was just caught up in events.

I can understand this, although I don’t find a reference to Nightcrawler to raise anymore unnecessary questions than the sudden appearance of a seemingly 12 year old girl who is now a member of the X-Men (Kitty Pryde . . . for those unfamiliar with the source material, or who haven’t seen X2 in a while, who is she? Where did she come from? What did she do to become an X-Man?). Also, why would Nightcrawler be in an X-Men uniform? Obviously unbeknownst to them, Iceman and Rogue had X-Men uniforms waiting, but why would Nightcrawler?

Nightcrawler only appeared in two episodes of the 90s cartoon, he never joined the team.

Neither does Colossus, but he is still an X-Man in the movies as he has always been. The Animated Series maintains little bearing here.

 

[newwaveboy87]

Nightcrawler. never. joined. the. team.

at the end with the President Nightcrawler's not wearing a uniform. he's not even with the group. he's off to the side. he didn't join the X-Men so his appearance has little bearing.

and, people did ask where the guy with the tongue and the other guy went after the trailers for X2 were shown. people did wonder where the other Brotherhood members for a split second, but they still wondered.

 

[ntcrawler]

Nightcrawler. never. joined. the. team.

Isn't. It fun to? mess with puncuation. Marks! It really; screws up that? voice in your! head doesn't it...

But let's be. Serious, for? A second!

at the end with the President Nightcrawler's not wearing a uniform. he's not even with the group. he's off to the side. he didn't join the X-Men so his appearance has little bearing.

So? Not having him join the X-men tactical unit would not prevent him from being able to stick around and make himself useful. Kurt was a loyal member of the Church, but still lacked a home or a place where he could be truly accepted (Gypsy caravans, circuses notwithstanding). Xavier's institute was above all a school and shelter for those people who because of their mutations were shunned from society. I can think of no reason why Kurt would not see that as a good thing, and to want to be among people who could truly understand and appreciate him. People for whom he could give back as much as they were willing to give to him.

and, people did ask where the guy with the tongue and the other guy went after the trailers for X2 were shown. people did wonder where the other Brotherhood members for a split second, but they still wondered.

To jail. Just like Magneto. They just weren't worth the effort of breaking out.

 

[BMM]

Nightcrawler. never. joined. the. team.

at the end with the President Nightcrawler's not wearing a uniform. he's not even with the group. he's off to the side. he didn't join the X-Men so his appearance has little bearing.

I. Am. Not. Saying. Nightcrawler. Joined. The Team.

And why would Nightcrawler suddenly be wearing a uniform anyway? He just met the X-Men . . . and whether or not he is off to the side, he joins the team inside of the White House.

and, people did ask where the guy with the tongue and the other guy went after the trailers for X2 were shown. people did wonder where the other Brotherhood members for a split second, but they still wondered.

Perhaps after that split second, those people remembered the events of X-Men and the numerous outs provided at the end of the movie. Toad is blasted by a bolt of lightning into far away waters. Sabretooth is blown out of the Statue of Liberty by Cyclops and plummets the length of the monument to the boats below.

Toad is out of commission before even knowing what happens to Magneto. Even then, how would he find Magneto to rejoin him when Magneto is immediately placed into custody and isolated by the authorities? Mystique is initially unsure of Magneto's whereabouts, let alone Toad. How would Toad know where to find Magneto or Mystique? Perhaps Toad is dead, or perhaps like Magneto, he too has been arrested.

The same goes for Sabretooth. He doesn't know what happens to Magneto seeing as how he is far removed from the final moments that befall Magneto. Again, how is he to come into contact with Magneto? How is he supposed to know where Mystique is? How are either Mystique or Magneto supposed to come into contact or know where Sabretooth is? Perhaps Sabretooth is arrested by the authorities who are clearly present at Liberty Island. Perhaps Sabretooth is dead.

The difference between Sabretooth/Toad and Nightcrawler is that Toad and Sabretooth are given numerous outs and logic follows in the subsequent film. Nightcrawler, on the other hand, is the one who agrees to join Jean and Storm to go back to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters. He is for helping the X-Men's cause along the way and even goes so far as to be with the team in the end at the White House when he certainly does not have to be. So what happens to the mutant who once agreed to go back to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters?

 

[La_She-Beast]

Good points - we did get his comments to Storm ('you don't shed on the furniture'). Might it have been difficult to show a picture of human beast? It then opens up a whole box about how/why/when he turned blue and furry... and it would either have to be a different human in the picture (the actor shown in X2...Steve Bacic???) or a picture of Kelsey Grammer (thus identifying the role as being played by 'Frasier' and spoiling the effect of all that make-up)...

Naaaah. Let's see Frasier. Sideshow Bob. Evil Chimpanzee. . I understand what you mean... yeah seeing Kelsey w/o the make-up would lower that magic effect, but... I guess there could be other ways: he holds one of his pictures in his office and we see a woman-he begins to stroke that photo and then BANG! flashback of a silhouette drinking a flask. I like the idea too of having Steve Bacic. I'm sure that if they profundised more the character they could've come out with something more emotional and pacing rather than his sofa phrase and looking at his hand. See, even that scene didn't fill me. The only parts that certainly filled me where the young angel scene and... oh wait. Nothing more
There's no intention in the characters if they rush the scene... it was like "Jean kills her lover? Check!" "Wolverine kills Jean? Check!" Fans are gonna like it- every scene is taken from the comics!" Okay, but where is the development? damnit. Tor me a movie is like artwork: if there's no intention by the artist, there's no admiration.

 

[ntcrawler]

The difference between Sabretooth/Toad and Nightcrawler is that Toad and Sabretooth are given numerous outs and logic follows in the subsequent film. Nightcrawler, on the other hand, is the one who agrees to join Jean and Storm to go back to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters.

He does, doesn't he? He didn't need to have gone back with them from Boston but did.

He is for helping the X-Men's cause along the way and even goes so far as to be with the team in the end at the White House when he certainly does not have to be. So what happens to the mutant who once agreed to go back to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters?

THAT is a very good point! After completing the mission at Alkali Lake, there was no need for NightCrawler to stick around, or to even go to all the trouble go go into the Whitehouse along with the rest of the team to visit the President. Yet he was there. I consider that significant. His role was more than just to sit in a corner and smile and wave when referred to. Looks to me like he's in it for the long haul. The Church gave him comfort, but Xavier's institute gave him a true home and family and a chance to do more positive things for people like him. To suddenly disappear without a reason is unacceptable.

 

[ntcrawler]

There's no intention in the characters if they rush the scene... it was like "Jean kills her lover? Check!" "Wolverine kills Jean? Check!" Fans are gonna like it- every scene is taken from the comics!" Okay, but where is the development? damnit.

Development? There's no time! The camera's running out of film! We gotta move to the next scene! CHECK!

 

[newwaveboy87]

And why would Nightcrawler suddenly be wearing a uniform anyway? He just met the X-Men . . . and whether or not he is off to the side, he joins the team inside of the White House.

he wasn't wearing a uniform.

The difference between Sabretooth/Toad and Nightcrawler is that Toad and Sabretooth are given numerous outs and logic follows in the subsequent film. Nightcrawler, on the other hand, is the one who agrees to join Jean and Storm to go back to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters. He is for helping the X-Men's cause along the way and even goes so far as to be with the team in the end at the White House when he certainly does not have to be. So what happens to the mutant who once agreed to go back to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters?

the actor *****ed about the makeup? Fox decided not to renew his deal? only two blue mutants may appear in an X-Men film?

he agrees to go back with them so the Professor could help Nightcrawler figure out what had happened to him during the Presidential attack. not because he agreed completely with Xaiver's School's basis. he even asks Storm what the point of having a separate school for mutants. it seemed fairly clear that Nightcrawler could go one of two ways for a sequel: join the team, return to the church.

i would've liked to have seen him join the team because i love him so, but they decided against it.

 

[danoyse]

And why would Nightcrawler suddenly be wearing a uniform anyway? He just met the X-Men . . . and whether or not he is off to the side, he joins the team inside of the White House.

How did Bobby and Rogue get theirs? They were in uniform in the White House, and their uniforms weren't supposed to arrive for "a few years," according to Wolverine.

But regarding Nightcrawler...I would have loved to have seen him come back in this one, but I wasn't really at a loss to wonder why he wasn't in X3, either. I thought his character could have easily left at the end of X2 and gone back to his church, or some other purpose not involving the X-Men.

When Storm explained the school to him as a place where they could be "safe...from everyone else," it didnt seem he felt he needed the same protection. Instead, he told Storm she shouldn't be so afraid.

Again, I would have loved to see Nightcrawler come back, I thought Alan Cumming was brilliant in X2 (I've seen him on stage as well)...but it worked all right without him.

The difference between Sabretooth/Toad and Nightcrawler is that Toad and Sabretooth are given numerous outs and logic follows in the subsequent film. Nightcrawler, on the other hand, is the one who agrees to join Jean and Storm to go back to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters. He is for helping the X-Men's cause along the way and even goes so far as to be with the team in the end at the White House when he certainly does not have to be. So what happens to the mutant who once agreed to go back to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters?

Well, he did agree to go back with them (did he even have a choice in that first scene, when Storm and Jean caught him in the church?), because he wanted someone to help him with his memory loss and why he attacked the President. And he obviously was a big part of the team--saving Rogue, helping them find Stryker's base, saving the Professor.

It made sense for him to go to the White House, since he attacked the President and Xavier was trying to prove what Stryker had done. But he wasn't even standing with the X-Men, he was sort of lurking in the background.

It could have gone either way...he could have easily have left again at the end of the movie. There was no moment where he moved into the place to stay.

 

[ntcrawler]

the actor *****ed about the makeup?

Well then that would make him look like a wuss, since Rebecca took it like a champ and was willing to sit there for 8 hours in a chair for what was essentially an exit scene in X3. Alan's char at least got to wear clothes! Rebecca had to be naked for shoots on cold fall nights!

Fox decided not to renew his deal? only two blue mutants may appear in an X-Men film?

neither. They had a role for him in x3 but it was so insignificant and short (gee, another char with a short and insignicant role, I'm truly shocked! Shocked!!!) that Alan figured it wasn't worth the effort. Which again makes him look cowardly compared to Rebecca, but understandeable

i would've liked to have seen him join the team because i love him so, but they decided against it.

It is a shame, isn't it? we're literally starving for footage and scenes with our favorite chars.

 

[newwaveboy87]

face it, Alan's a little drama queen.

 

[Goddessreicho]

Alan and Halle had the same problem.













Singer! Alan was smart enough to say "peace" when it was thought that BS was going to direct the next sequel.

 

[X-Maniac]

We're literally starving for footage and scenes with our favorite chars.

We're always starving, we are fans. Cyclops, Jean and Storm went through the first two movies without a hint of origin, of why they were at Xavier's school, yet they were the main X-Men. Jean's background was fleshed out in X3, but Cyclops and Storm still have no backstory and, as a result, most of Storm's dialogue in X2 asks more questions than it answers. Sabretooth's link to Wolverine was never fleshed out, in fact the casual viewer would never even think they had a link (the brief moment with the dog tag was a blink-and-you-missed it scene), Mystique's link to Nightcrawler was never given.

At least with Angel we saw an origin, and we saw him get a room at the mansion... at least it was definite.

 

[BMM]

How did Bobby and Rogue get theirs? They were in uniform in the White House, and their uniforms weren't supposed to arrive for "a few years," according to Wolverine.

Yes, but it makes sense that Xavier would have pre-prepared uniforms for trusted students such as Iceman and Rogue should the situation present itself in which they are prepared to take the next step as X-Men. This is not quite the case concerning Nightcrawler.

But regarding Nightcrawler...I would have loved to have seen him come back in this one, but I wasn't really at a loss to wonder why he wasn't in X3, either. I thought his character could have easily left at the end of X2 and gone back to his church, or some other purpose not involving the X-Men.

When Storm explained the school to him as a place where they could be "safe...from everyone else," it didnt seem he felt he needed the same protection. Instead, he told Storm she shouldn't be so afraid.

Again, I would have loved to see Nightcrawler come back, I thought Alan Cumming was brilliant in X2 (I've seen him on stage as well)...but it worked all right without him.

Agreed. I think his character could have left at the end of X2 as well, which he obviously does. Although, I do find it to be a loss on the audience's part. The point I am trying to make is that I find Nightcrawler's non-explanation to stem from a bit of a different situation than those regarding Sabretooth and Toad.

Well, he did agree to go back with them (did he even have a choice in that first scene, when Storm and Jean caught him in the church?), because he wanted someone to help him with his memory loss and why he attacked the President. And he obviously was a big part of the team--saving Rogue, helping them find Stryker's base, saving the Professor.

It made sense for him to go to the White House, since he attacked the President and Xavier was trying to prove what Stryker had done. But he wasn't even standing with the X-Men, he was sort of lurking in the background.

Yes, this is true. The point I am trying to make is that regardless of whether or not he is standing with the team, he chooses to stick with them when he doesn't have to. It is not as though he is present at the White House to strictly clear his name and be vindicated. I believe he is present because of the larger meaning of the situation which fits Xavier's dream of human/mutant coexistence.

 

[BMM]

Well then that would make him look like a wuss, since Rebecca took it like a champ and was willing to sit there for 8 hours in a chair for what was essentially an exit scene in X3. Alan's char at least got to wear clothes! Rebecca had to be naked for shoots on cold fall nights!

No kidding. She made it through 3 films.

face it, Alan's a little drama queen.

Haha. Apparently.

Alan and Halle had the same problem.

. . . and now it is rumored that Berry had on set issues with Janssen while filming The Last Stand. Ahh Berry, when will the rumor mill ease up on her?

Singer! Alan was smart enough to say "peace" when it was thought that BS was going to direct the next sequel.

Not quite. Cumming wishes he had that kind of power.

 

[X-Maniac]

Face it folks, Alan Cumming didn't like the make-up and he didn't like working with Bryan Singer... So even if Bryan had been doing X3, there would still be no Nightcrawler.

Nightcrawler was very much the outsider in X2: Cyclops asks who the hell he is at the dam, when he is jabbering on about the Munich Circus, before Kurt teleports Storm inside Cerebro; and Kurt asks Storm on the jet about the school and appears bemused by her comments about the X-Men using it as a safe haven from the rest of the world, as he relies on his own faith for his survival. He is never asked to join the school or the X-Men, he never seems interested in doing so, he is not in the final scenes of the film at the school. No doubt there no was no 'final resolution' to his character in X2 in case he returned for X3. But he seemed very much like he was simply caught up in events, a victim of circumstance.

Making a casual comment about him in X3 might well have been unwise, given the long gaps between these films - the audience is then expected to remember the previous movie several years before. As I said before, these movies have loosely become a trilogy but were never conceived, planned, written or filmed as one and there are years between each movie.

Toad was at one point going to be a prisoner at Stryker's base in X2 and Angel was going to be there too (either with feathered or metal wings). No explanation for Toad's survival, retrieval and capture. And no backstory for Angel. But that would have been okay, I suppose, for these characters to pop up with no explanation.

I find some of the comments made above to be extreme nitpicking; some people are perceiving everything about X3 in a negative light as though there is nothing RIGHT with it at all.

And then we have justifications such as saying 'Xavier would have pre-prepared uniforms for Rogue and Bobby' (never mind the tautological nonsense of the word pre-prepared) so that part of X2 is suddenly okay: whatever X1 and X2 did was, of course, so perfect and cannot be faulted in any way...

 

[danoyse]

Not quite. Cumming wishes he had that kind of power.

I can add some more fuel to that fire: I read an interview with him just as X2 was being released, where he said he regarded movies like that as "bank" movies--where he could make a lot of money, put it away, and move on to smaller projects where he wouldn't have to worry about the money as much.

I have read that he hated the makeup, I've also read that he possibly didn't get along with Bryan Singer, but that's all gossip, so who knows what's true.

And I can't diss the guy....I saw him on Broadway in "Cabaret" a few years before X2, and he was amazing. My friends waited for his autograph after the show, and he was really nice. Plus I saw him at a CD signing for BC/EFA where he did a Q&A, and again...he was really nice.

 

[no1phoenixfan]

I can add some more fuel to that fire: I read an interview with him just as X2 was being released, where he said he regarded movies like that as "bank" movies--where he could make a lot of money, put it away, and move on to smaller projects where he wouldn't have to worry about the money as much.

I have read that he hated the makeup, I've also read that he possibly didn't get along with Bryan Singer, but that's all gossip, so who knows what's true.

And I can't diss the guy....I saw him on Broadway in "Cabaret" a few years before X2, and he was amazing. My friends waited for his autograph after the show, and he was really nice. Plus I saw him at a CD signing for BC/EFA where he did a Q&A, and again...he was really nice.

Actually Dayonase it is true that Alan Cummings stated that he didn't want to return because of the makeup in X2 United, unless they did something with the makeup, then he would consider coming back to the X franchise movies. Alan cummings stated this on E! in a interview, right before X2 United released in theaters. smiles So that part isn't rumor, or gossip.

 

[danoyse]

Yes, but it makes sense that Xavier would have pre-prepared uniforms for trusted students such as Iceman and Rogue should the situation present itself in which they are prepared to take the next step as X-Men. This is not quite the case concerning Nightcrawler.

Or he offered one to Nightcrawler and he turned it down?

The point I am trying to make is that I find Nightcrawler's non-explanation to stem from a bit of a different situation than those regarding Sabretooth and Toad.

I agree, it is a different situation. Most people probably just assumed they'd been killed in X1. With Magneto in prison, even if they were alive they wouldn't have still be lurking around.

 

[danoyse]

Actually Dayonase it is true that Alan Cummings stated that he didn't want to return because of the makeup in X2 United, unless they did something with the makeup, then he would consider coming back to the X franchise movies. Alan cummings stated this on E! in a interview, right before X2 United released in theaters. smiles So that part isn't rumor, or gossip.

He said the same thing on the X2 DVD, although it sounded like he was joking.

He was signed for the next movie, but they decided not to pick up his option. That was the official reason I read.

 

[no1phoenixfan]

He said the same thing on the X2 DVD, although it sounded like he was joking.

He was signed for the next movie, but they decided not to pick up his option. That was the official reason I read.

Dayonase,
I apologise my bad. It's good he was joking, also thanks for the extra information.

Also though it's not good though that they didn't give Alan Cummings an option though. Actually that's sad.

 

[Cyrusbales]

It's not good though that they didn't give Alan Cummings an option though. actually that's sad.

doesn't it explain why nightcrawler isn't in X-3 in the game? anyone played it?