Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by Nell2ThaIzzay, Aug 23, 2006.

  1. ntcrawler

    ntcrawler Well-Known Member

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    Quote from "Justabill" from the above "for those of us who still have a brain thread":

    I smell an insult...
     
    #51
  2. X-Maniac

    X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    That could depend on how one defines 'true X-Men fan'...

    Does it mean someone who has followed the comics for decades, someone who has piles of comics several metres high and all the cartoon episodes... Does it mean someone whose passions are confined to the world they saw in the first two movies...

    It's all down to perspective and interpretation. I've offered my interpretation of events in the movies. And given my dislikes too. The treatment of Cyclops by Fox was among those things i disliked and which did stand out in the movie.

    However, overall, I loved the movie. The negatives do not, for me, outweigh the positives.

    Also, because I've seen it several times and have followed the comicbooks for so long, I obviously have a lot of information in my head; and the multiple viewings give me more appreciation, a deeper understanding, a better memory of what was on screen than someone who saw it three months ago and stomped off in a a rage because Cyclops was dead. A deeper appreciation than you might have had if you were thrown off course by the faster pace than the first two movies - you simply cannot impose a 'Singer' mentality on this film. I never went into this with Bryan Singer on my mind, and that's proved an advantage.
     
    #52
  3. Nell2ThaIzzay

    Nell2ThaIzzay Well-Known Member

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    You're right. My initial review was very harsh, and any review of the movie that I'd give now would be very praising. And I can tell you exactly why I had such an initial "harsh" review.

    -The ending of X2, along with all of the trailers and promotional material promised X-Men: The Last Stand to be a movie of epic proportions, with depth and character levels never seen before in a comic book movie. I will admit, I got caught up in the hype, and went in expecting a Return of the King style epic. I forgot that this was a comic book movie.

    -X-Men: The Last Stand wasn't the epic that I had hyped myself to believe it was. Not only was it not the epic I expected it to be, there were also some VERY visible flaws. Though not as harsh, much of my original review remains consistant with my currect opinion. And one of thoses viewpoints is the pacing of the film. The movie wasn't what I expected it to be, plus it had some very glaring flaws that became even worse in my eyes, because I wasn't watching the movie I thought I was going to see.

    -I knew EVERYTHING! People talk about the checklist of characters that needed to be killed off, well going into the movie, I had an even longer checklist of plot points and details to expect. Flashback intros? Check. Next. Danger Room? Check. Next. Moira McTaggert? Check. Next. Psi-Battle at Jean's childhood home? Check. Next. Magneto building an army? Check. Next. There wasn't anything that surprised me. And things that would have totally unleashed the fanboy in me, like the Danger Room, like seeing Moira McTaggert, like seeing a Sentinel head... they were all lost on me because I was already expecting it.

    -And the most weak minded of all the reasons: My friend that I saw it with at the midnight showing hated it. Not seeing the movie I expected to see, seeing all the obvious flaws amplified by the fact that it wasn't the movie I expected, and knowing all of the cool things that would have fired me up had I not known about them from the get go, talking to a friend that totally hated the movie easily influenced a bit more the "hatred" that I felt for the film after I saw it the first time.

    I then saw it the next day... alone because another friend of mine didn't want to go. I saw it, alone, because I knew even walking about of the midnight showing I wanted to see it one more time before coming to my official opinion. The movie's pacing slowed down a bit, and things just worked better. The reason being, my expectations now were a bit more realistic. I knew it wasn't going to be a Return of the King epic. And now that all the pre-production and AICN script review hype has worn off, I can go back and watch the movie with a bit less of a tainted viewpoint. And now, I see the qualities that the movie has to offer. Qualities that I was blind to the first time around, because I was looking for something totally different.

    Yes, my opinion of the movie has taken a complete 180 turn... but there is still a lot of my review that remains accurate to my feelings towards the film. In fact, I went back to the link you posted and re-read my review, and I found myself still nodding my head to a few of the things I stated back then. This movie is flawed. And as great as it is (I like it better than X-Men still, though not as much as X-Men: United), I can probably still honestly say it's the most flawed of the 3. However, I've also been able to find the things that were done right with this film. And in my opinion, what was done right, and what remained consistant with the previous films, outweighs what was done wrong and what was inconsistant.
     
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  4. CapBeerCino

    CapBeerCino Well-Known Member

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    How do you dig out threads from the past?
     
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  5. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    Ok...still dont change the fact that what you said before....is what you said. Plain and simple. you tried to paint people into a corner, saying they were just cyclops only fans or singer fans. I dont care about your justification. you simply didnt give pessimists respect when this movie was in development. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. you're quite freaking presumptuous.
     
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  6. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    prep-time.

    do you my trips down memory lane
     
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  7. ntcrawler

    ntcrawler Well-Known Member

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    The latter seems to apply especially to some Wolverine fans, who insist that the movies are supposed to be a fresh look on things, therefore the comics, past stories, TAS do not apply in regards to character development or relationships. I just find it interesting that people are able to insert and remove these background stories and material at will to suit their arguments. Some of the Wolverine fans I've debated with use Wolverine's comic backgrounds as an argument to show how much more intersesting he is than Cyclops and how much more complex and wonderful his background is, but when I try to do the same with regards to Cyke and Jean's relationship, I'm told repeatedly that because we're dealing with the movies, the comic and TAS background information and char histories do not apply, even if they do not contradict but support what we see in the movies. :confused:
    Alot of your interpretations are based on what the book says or involve direct quoting from material presented in the book, that you then state you agree with but offer no reasons why, except that you have no problem with it or that you like it. I have yet to see you go off in your own direction and offer your own interpretations.

    I'm sorry, but the destruction of Cyclops and exclusion from the rest of the film is one giant negative for me which negates the rest of the movie. A major battle taking place, a life and death situation for his closest friends and loved ones and Cyclops is not there because he's conveniently removed from the story in a bizarre way? There's no way I can love or accept that. There's a bit more to the meaning and implications of Cyke's sudden, unexpected death at the hands of Jean than one less eater at the family dinner table.

    You don't have to apply Singer's style of directing, but you do have to apply Singer's setup of the storyline and plot elements. That's how you end up making a trilogy, and not 2+1 films. X3 is missing that deeper connection between the previous two films. George Lucas had 3 different directors making his original trilogy, but because there was always one central, creative driving force guiding the directors, those three films had a sense of continuity and consistency that I feel X3 lacks. And it does show. I'm not just talking about the faster pace or channel-flipping editing style, but the actual plot points themselves.
     
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  8. X-Maniac

    X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    When the movie was in development, it was hard to know what was true and what wasn't, and how it might all work out in the end. Also, some of the script wasn't filmed, or included, and some of the FX not included, so it's hard to tell what the finished product might be like.

    If they'd shown me the finished version months before release, I'd want quite a bit to be different, that's for sure... I could easily type out lists of dislikes, and I have mentioned a lot of them... I think some additional scenes might have helped, more dialogue, and a bit more breathing space, but I have no problem with the basic storyline and movie structure...

    Rarely though do we get a chance to change a product before release, because that ain't how it works.

    Bryan's SR gave me a big injection of reality too, in realising that even when the acclaimed director of X1 and X2 has huge freedoms with filming and editing and money, the final product may still disappoint (If I'd seen that finished product before release, I'd want substantial structural changes, to me much more was fundamentally flawed than with X3, things that would take more to fix than a bit of added dialogue).
     
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  9. PhoenixRisen

    PhoenixRisen Well-Known Member

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    ^^Sorry i didn't respond to the last part of your post La She Beast i have been running around!! That was the point of the 20th reunion part. Those are big deals too. If u hated the 20th reunion and want the 40th to be more to your liking, do something about it--organize the next one or even just voice your displeasure!!! NOTHING wrong with that at all. Just do it politely and in context...................I know/relate to where people are coming from in their disappointments and I love an interesting (preferably semi-originial) debate.....all I was saying is KEEP IT SOMEWHAT CIVIL and IN PERSPECTIVE!!!!

    Like I said in my 1st sentence EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion and to express it!!! How, how many times, and where, is their choice!! I just prefer no name calling/personal attacks/acting like you are a better fan/remember we are dealing with OPINIONS most of the time/at least try to respect the purpose of the various threads, i know it is easy to get off topic tho esp when u have passionate beliefs i have strayed offtopic many times and even turned into DarkPhoenixRisen from time to time... how can u not if u are passionate?!?!?!?!?.............. i think it's something EVERYONE needs to keep in mind on all sides, me included!!!!

    None of us are going anywhere (i hope, and yes even people I ALWAYS disagree with!!) so we should all try to get along unless drama and catfights is what people want. P.S. speaking of reunions it would be fun to have a SHH! "reunion" I bet we would all have fun even though there would be a LOT of drama/fighting...i would PAY $$$$ to see that... (am imagining xxx dunking yyy's head in punchbowl...xxx ironically "hooking up" with yyy, their biggest online nemesis) OMG lololol!!!!!!! They would need to have 5 ambulances on standby!!! Poor Lightning Strikes if he had to chaperone THAT ONE!!! hehehe :D

    OK i am off to try see if I can find an "After Effects for Dummies" book................... :)
     
    #59
  10. CapBeerCino

    CapBeerCino Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I kinda realized that. but how do you locate the old threads once they're gone?
     
    #60
  11. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah....

    Is there a point to your post?

    The movie was pretty much DONE when you said those extremely ignorant comments. Nell REVIEWED AND SAW THE WHOLE THING when you claimed he wasnt a true fan. There are no excuses. you said what you said.
     
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  12. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    Its easy. Search a members post history.
     
    #62
  13. X-Maniac

    X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Well, i am not a particular fan of Wolverine, so don't bash me for saying this, but he has been given a very fleshed-out, rich, deep comicbook background that is much deeper than that of Cyclops. He had/has his own series, an ongoing nemesis in Sabretooth, he has the whole Weapon X experimentation victim story and links to another team (Alpha Flight) too, the Japanese connections, links even to fighting in the war alongside Captain America, and he has that Clint Eastwood rugged good guy /maverick thing going on...which women and men love.

    Cyclops has an interesting past too - childhood plane crash, father beamed off to outer space, orphanage, brother(s). Perhaps not quite as rich, and he has never had his own book...And as a character he's more introverted, less emotional. And his eyes are concealed, which hinders emotional connection from the reader/viewer...

    Bryan Singer, as an adopted child with his own mysterious past, loved Wolverine. And so did Schuler-Donner. They seized upon the character as the vehicle through which X1's story was told - the X-Men were introduced through Wolverine's cynical, mocking eyes. Jackman's excellent portrayal only served to solidify Wolverine's status in the movie series.

    None of that justifies Cyclops' fate. But it's part of the reasoning.

    Well, I use the comicbooks as a basic template, mostly. That's the source material. Sometimes you can't do that (movie Rogue for instance), so you have to apply realistic logic to her story. I also empathise with their struggles on a personal level,. I can imagine that's how i would feel if i were them - and sometimes it's how i or close friends have felt when in similar circumstances.

    A giant negative, yes. But, for me, it doesn't negate the rest of the movie. The movie is about more than Cyclops, more than Wolverine seeming to take over that role. There is much else going on.

    Pacing differences are bound to happen with a new director and different writers. Nevertheless, the writers said they did watch the previous two movies and they did appear to follow through on key things - set against the cure storyline. Cyclops' grief over Jean's absence, The return of Jean and Cyclops' reaction and the love between them (brief though it was), Wolverine settling into life at the school after telling Stryker he'd take his chances with them, Storm following on from her dialogue in X2 regarding fear and anger, Rogue and Bobby's story, Magneto's next moves..

    There is nothing inherently wrong with introducing the cure storyline. X2 did not continue directly from X1, it introduced Stryker and a whole new story that became the reason for events in the movie. Similarly with X3, a new story drove the movie forward. Jean's arc has never been centrestage, it's been bubbling away in the background. It's been socio-political themes that are rightly the centre of the X-Men movies.
     
    #63
  14. X-Maniac

    X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    I said Nell had viewed the movie as a Singer fan...which had led to his initial shock...rather than as an X-Men fan...

    Yes, I said what i said. A statement, not an accusation.

    What's your point? And what kind of fan are you? What's your perspective?

    Poking about in the archives and attempting to stir up trouble merely indicates you have nothing fresh to add. May I suggest you find some hobbies...
     
    #64
  15. C. Lee

    C. Lee I'm not old...I'm ancient

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    Let's everyone remember.....everyone is allowed to express thier opinion, as long as they do it nicely. There is no need for name calling or personal attacks.
     
    #65
  16. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    Nell has said countless times that he was a fan of the comics....and then you say hes not a superhero fan. Seems like an accusation to me

    Again, i poked around to show people the rude behavior you and others have shown the past few months.
     
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  17. X-Maniac

    X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Nell had asked on here where he might obtain a copy of the Phoenix saga, at around the time of the movie coming out, probably just before it. A lot of us were surprised at those on here who hadn't taken time to investigate the source material of this classic saga. At that time, he hadn't read the comics, as far as I recall.

    I don't regard myself as rude, but your posts with 'BLAH BLAH' are certainly no sign of politeness. Why not thrill me with an intelligent argument, it's never too late.
     
    #67
  18. Jan Irisi

    Jan Irisi Well-Known Member

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    Oh, does that me we can now go back and track down everything you have said in your previous posts too? That should be interesting...........
     
    #68
  19. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    Do so. Everything I've said has been in response to what I saw as rude behavior.
     
    #69
  20. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    I'm Sorry...but you'd probably just say i'm just a singer fan. It cant be cause i judged the movie on its own merits
     
    #70
  21. X-Maniac

    X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    I've no idea if you are a Singer fan, unless you directly admit to it and claim membership of the DoSV !!!

    If you disliked the movie, so be it. I disliked elements of it too. When people say what they disliked, then others such as myself might well offer their views, alternative interpretations etc...

    If I'm wrongly accused of being a 'loyalist', which I am not, then I am bound to respond to that too. I have no allegiance to Fox, Warner, Ratner, Singer, Jackman or Rothman. I've stuck up for Halle, because some unwarranted things have been said (calling her a diseased ****e and the like). My only 'allegiance' is to the X-Men comics I've read for 30 years and an enthusiasm for seeing how the stories are reimagined in the cartoons and movies.

    Perhaps I shouldn't bother to post here. I use an enormous amount of time and energy discussing these movies, i sometimes wonder if it's justified by what I have to put up with on here at times!!!
     
    #71
  22. C. Lee

    C. Lee I'm not old...I'm ancient

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    How's this for finding old posts?
     
    #72
  23. danoyse

    danoyse Snikt. Stab. Repeat.

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    No, ntcrawler, that's not what was happening--not from me. I've said repeatedly that I had not read the comics and did not watch the animated series until after I'd seen X1. My defense of Wolverine's prominent screen time in the movies, and why I think audiences (myself include) connected with the character more than they did with Cyclops, is based solely on what we know from the movies and ocassional deleted scene.

    You keep bringing in things about the characters from the comics to balance out who they are, stuff that was never seen or spoken about in the movies. There's nothing wrong with that view--you're much more well-versed in the comics than I'll ever be, and you articulate that view very well.

    But when we're talking about the movie, some things are definite to people unfamiliar with the comics. No one ever said Jean was Cyclops' fiance (unless you hunt for a ring on her finger), no one explained his background, or that his optic blasts could blast holes through mountains. And he was barely in X2.

    Wolverine had more of a background explained in the movies. He had a thing for Jean in the movie--and yes, it's OK for people who haven't read the comics to think Jean had a thing for him and not think she's being out of character. It's just the way it was presented.

    I admire your passion for the characters, and I'm impressed by your knowledge of the comics history. But even with the catching up I've done on the comics and the cartoon since seeing X1, I'm still going to see the movies I see them...and how I enjoy them. And that doesn't make me a clueless Wolverine fan.

    With X-Men existing in so many mediums, it's totally open to interpretation.
     
    #73
  24. danoyse

    danoyse Snikt. Stab. Repeat.

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    Great job, Nell. :up:

    He's exactly right. Not only did I like all 3 X-Men movies, it was the first superhero movie that finally got me to pick up a comic book. And I like them a lot now, especially X-Men, and even though they're so different from the movies.

    When we're not fighting over who's right or wrong for liking or disliking the movie, I learn a ton of stuff about the characters and other stories from the people who post about them here and on the comics thread. I don't always have time to go back and read everything XMen-related, this is usually a good place during peacetime to look up stuff. I think they compliment the movies very well.

    Isn't ok for someone who didn't read the comics to have an interpretation that's different? I have plenty of friends who don't know a thing about the comics who love these movies, and their reviews range from positive to downright hilarious--usually a lot of stuff you'd never read on a board like this.

    I come here because I loved these movies--even (flaws and all) X3, which I have to admit, I really can't wait to pick up the DVD, so I can marathon the entire trilogy at home.

    Nobody should feel persecuted and be chased off for having a different viewpoint or opinion. Debating? Sure. Attacking and labelling? Never.
     
    #74
  25. The Original Bamfer

    The Original Bamfer Big, Bald and Beautiful

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    You should respect everyone's opinions.

    I liked X3. I'm a huge comic-book fan (I know most storylines and/or have read the comics produced well before my time). I think I know enough about story telling, too.

    These ridiculous assumptions disgust me. You, time after time, insist that people who like that movie (unless they provide enought proof/reason for you) don't know **** about the comics or story telling. You think we're not intelligent. You are wrong. You know who looks stupid in all of this? You. Making these judgments which form out of nothing and aren't based on squat really makes me question your intelligence.

    I think it's great you dislike this movie. I love that people can have their own opinions... being individual and original when it comes to how you feel is great. You don't like the movie? That's totally cool with me. I've never once called you a "whiney fanboy." Because I'm a whiney fanboy, believe it or not. Why can't you accept that people can be huge fans of the comics and still really enjoy this movie? Or that people can know good story telling and still really enjoy this movie? Intelligence, of all things, has nothing to do whether you enjoy a film. I'm sure you've never watched an over-the-top comedy or graphic horror flick has entertained you, have you? Exactly.

    And then when people get pissed off at you for making these stupid accusations, you turn the whole thing around and call yourself victim. Why? Because you have no reason to treat people like you do, so you come up with some 5th grade excuse. I say, get over it. Stop acting like you are so incredibly open-minded, when you're really the opposite.

    I have my reasons as to why I really did enjoy X3:TLS. But I honestly don't think they matter, and I know for sure I have nothing to prove to you. Just like you don't have to prove to me why you dislike it. I don't care why you don't, and you shouldn't care why I do. Just accept it and respect everyone who enjoyed this film as you do those who didn't; As intelligent, X-Men fans. Because, despite what you think, that's exactly what we are.
     
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