Nell2ThaIzzay's "Last Stand"

[XCharlieX]

Needed a lot of catching up. Many replies since the start.

They got certain aspects of the characters down right but the rest...went completely out the window. Examples: Jean just appearing in front of Scott at Alkali Lake. WTF!?! No rising sequence and she appears to be standing just like that out of nowhere?

You know its interesting with the folks that come from the comic path to this film. To them its a MUST for phoenix to rise from the water in a godly fashion. How I saw it, I think there is much to be grateful for in that there were no more sfx sequences described and that they at least went straight to Scott and Jeans encounter with each other after the whirlpool. This film had enough sfx for me, so i never even begun to think about this. Go figure.

I loved seeing this movie opening day, with a crowd who clearly hadn’t been up on the internet buzz and appeared to be enjoying the movie just fine…the 5 guys behind me who yelled along with "I'M THE JUGGERNAUT, b****!" and were still yelling it walking out of the theater. The woman next to me saying "That's it, girl, go get her now," when Storm went after Callisto. The applauded when Bobby head-butt Pryo. I loved the crowd going crazy when Wolverine kicked the guy in the nuts. I loved the reaction from the people in the audience who stayed after the credits.

People say that those people are easily entertained…I say they’re probably better off for not following every single rumor, script leak, and assumption about the movie online beforehand, and were able to take it on face value and enjoy themselves.

Yeah you know at my viewing the people seem to dig it too. They laughed at all the right parts, especially the "juggernaut B****" line, the crowd went wild. They also laughed when the person in the car locked his car door after the bridge was torn apart. And at the end a guy in the row ahead of me jumped out of his seat when the secret scene was shown. I think the average person enjoyed this film more than the folks online. I bet many of them are fans of the series and have knowledge about the others.

No, because Nell is actually intelligent, knows the comics, and knows quite a bit about storytelling himself. So I respect his views and respect that he enjoys the movie.

I think X-Maniac is pretty intelligent here:

That could depend on how one defines 'true X-Men fan'...

Does it mean someone who has followed the comics for decades, someone who has piles of comics several metres high and all the cartoon episodes... Does it mean someone whose passions are confined to the world they saw in the first two movies...

It's all down to perspective and interpretation.

How right you are. Just because someone doesnt collect comics and such it doesnt make them any less of a fan or knowledgeable when it comes to the films. X3 clicked with me within the logic established by the films, thats really what I was concerned with.

I got caught up in the hype, and went in expecting a Return of the King style epic. I forgot that this was a comic book movie.

I personally dont think it was because it was a comic movie. There are small things they couldve done that hampered their epic scope a bit, like the topic ive made about pacing.

Other people are entitled to their opinions, yes, but I will not put up with the notion that those who love the film have the power of righteousness behind them and those who hate it are the bad guys.

Well honestly, if someone holds an opinion, if they thought it out thoroughly, then naturally they believe that they are correct. So that goes with both sides. Nobodies really going to convince the other, i think its really about seeing what the other person has to say, and then maybe after that they may change their view if they find the other arguments logical, but usually not.

That's right, Nell. Good point about trusting your first instinct. I still do.

If thats the case then X3 was wondrous to behold imo. My first gut instinct actually seeing it was the film was well done overall. With how worried I was I arrived at the theater thinking it was potentially going to be crap, but I had to clear my head of that negativity and think objectively in order for it to have any shot imo.

That is quite a good point...but the intent of my post was to show...that when you have a negative view on the movie...people will POUNCE on you...and Nell should know that better than anyone else.

Before the film i think people were getting tired of me thinking the worst of the film, so I can vouch for this also, the running time had me scared because ive seen crammed films happen too many times before. This was indeed the case but I never thought the film was inevitably doomed until i saw it and got surprised... i still feel its a bit of luck on behalf of the writers and director with their determination (especially the cast) that saved the film. I noticed some cracks at the seams due to a flamboyant director such as Brett. He doesnt care what people think and with pacing i think this showed in the worst way possible.

Going into a loaded film such as this, anybody should really forget whos directing what, and just strip the names off from the credits and just look at the film as 3 of 3. I felt personally the story, style and essence itself was done well and in line with the other 2.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

You should respect everyone's opinions.

I liked X3. I'm a huge comic-book fan (I know most storylines and/or have read the comics produced well before my time). I think I know enough about story telling, too.

These ridiculous assumptions disgust me. You, time after time, insist that people who like that movie (unless they provide enought proof/reason for you) don't know **** about the comics or story telling. You think we're not intelligent. You are wrong. You know who looks stupid in all of this? You. Making these judgments which form out of nothing and aren't based on squat really makes me question your intelligence.

I think it's great you dislike this movie. I love that people can have their own opinions... being individual and original when it comes to how you feel is great. You don't like the movie? That's totally cool with me. I've never once called you a "whiney fanboy." Because I'm a whiney fanboy, believe it or not. Why can't you accept that people can be huge fans of the comics and still really enjoy this movie? Or that people can know good story telling and still really enjoy this movie? Intelligence, of all things, has nothing to do whether you enjoy a film. I'm sure you've never watched an over-the-top comedy or graphic horror flick has entertained you, have you? Exactly.

And then when people get pissed off at you for making these stupid accusations, you turn the whole thing around and call yourself victim. Why? Because you have no reason to treat people like you do, so you come up with some 5th grade excuse. I say, get over it. Stop acting like you are so incredibly open-minded, when you're really the opposite.

I have my reasons as to why I really did enjoy X3:TLS. But I honestly don't think they matter, and I know for sure I have nothing to prove to you. Just like you don't have to prove to me why you dislike it. I don't care why you don't, and you shouldn't care why I do. Just accept it and respect everyone who enjoyed this film as you do those who didn't; As intelligent, X-Men fans. Because, despite what you think, that's exactly what we are.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

Did you not read one thing I wrote?

****ing Hypocrite

^that's what you call a fact, learn them.

 

[newwaveboy87]

Correct. Her powers are becoming stronger and it takes more effort to control them and keep them in line. Very similar to storm's situation. For Jean, she suddenly has alot more power to tap into, something she was previously unaware of.

actually, Storm, Cyclops, Rogue, Wolverine, Magneto, and all of the other mutants that came into contact with the mutant machine within the first film already had their powers at their full potential in the films. Jean was the only who mentioned anything about being behind in her power levels in comparison to the others. hers were still in development.

Very simple. Because her alter-ego is explained at being essentially an angry, frightened child who lashes out and has a need for basic desires, as well as feeling bitterness towards those that suuposedly held her back. Namely Xavier and apparently to a lesser extend Scott. Yet we see none of that. Jean does not experience any sudden or unexplainable mood swings. She never shows any hint of bitterness or resentment towards Xavier or anyone else. She never lashes out suddenly in anger. You never see equipment or silverware flying across the room when she becomes angry. Up until the final moment, she remains the good, lovable, compassionate Jean they always knew. In fact, she never becomes angry or gives into her anger. And her powers are never seen as something that corrupts her, or affects her in a negative way. Rather her powers are shown to be a natural part of her, certainly not something which destroys her life or hints at possibly being used to destroy the world. She never uses her powers to hurt, to maim, kill or destroy but only for protection. Up until the very moment that Jean is overwhelmed by the water, she is clearly in control, afraid but calm, and her powers are shown as something clearly benevolent. Certainly no visible sign of an alternate personality seeping through or taking over, and certainly no hint of the rage and destruction that was to come in X3.

everything i highlighted i think you might've missed, or forgotten about in X2. first off, Jean is anything but in control of her powers throughout the course of the film. when we're first re-introduced to her she causes the electrical equipment in the museum to go on the fritz. when the missiles are fired at them, she manages to destroy one, but looses control of her powers during the second. the flame effect that happens at random times comes and goes as it pleases showing that her powers might not be entirely under her control, previously completely developed, and definitely, not benevolent. they have the potential to be all of those things, but she's "killed" before she can learn to actually gain control of them.

also, in the deleted scenes, we're shown that once Storm mentions Logan, the Blackbird's controls begin to go faster and start to act off. Storm realizes that Jean is doing this and tells her about it. while it doesn't show up in the final product it does provide more proof that Jean isn't in control of her powers completely, and that there is something hidden within her character.

 

[ntcrawler]

actually, Storm, Cyclops, Rogue, Wolverine, Magneto, and all of the other mutants that came into contact with the mutant machine within the first film already had their powers at their full potential in the films. Jean was the only who mentioned anything about being behind in her power levels in comparison to the others. hers were still in development.

Exactly! That's exactly what I'm talking about. Her mutation was triggered early when Annie died and never completed. Magneto's machine completed the mutation for her, completing the process and making her into what mother nature intended all along. It was assumed that magneto's mutation machine (MMM) would have no effect on a mutant, but didn't realize that Jean herself was a special case.

 

[newwaveboy87]

actually her mutantion was hindered when Xaiver put the mental blocks on her too. it was a combination. that's why she was so pissed.

and it makes me laugh when people say that Xaiver did a 180 in X-Men 3. no he didn't. there's evidence that his character has a dark past when he's talking to Stryker, even Magneto, about Stryker's son and the reasons for his allowing Wolverine to join his cause.

 

[ntcrawler]

actually her mutantion was hindered when Xaiver put the mental blocks on her too. it was a combination. that's why she was so pissed.

You say there were mental blocks, I say that was a rabbit pulled out of the hat at the last second in X3 to find a convenient way to make Jean evil, which was not hinted or suggested by the first 2 films. Especially when Jean points out to Logan "he's teaching me to develoy" my powers. Not "control my powers", not "holding back my powers", and she becomes quite defensive when Logan dares to suggest that she's being held back. A previous movie cannot be modified or retconned to fit in with the next movie. It's the sequel that needs to be adjusted to fit in properly with previously established material or direction.

But to each his own.

and it makes me laugh when people say that Xaiver did a 180 in X-Men 3. no he didn't. there's evidence that his character has a dark past when he's talking to Stryker, even Magneto, about Stryker's son and the reasons for his allowing Wolverine to join his cause.

It makes me laugh too. Then I get angry and I want to kick the writers. Stryker wanted Xavier to CURE his son. Something that Xavier could not do. Unfortunately, Stryker did not understand that, so he became angry, threw a tantrum, and turned his kid into a drooling mass on a wheelchair that Stryker drained cerebral fluid from to inject into other mutants. I hardly see Xavier's actions as being evil or dark. His inability to come up with a magic cure for Stryker's kid is not his fault, or a sign that the man has a dark side. Rather, it's a sign that the man has his limitations and mutations, like being fat, does not have a magic cure or pill that one can take. At least until X3 comes around.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Did you not read one thing I wrote?

****ing Hypocrite

^that's what you call a fact, learn them.

I read what you wrote. I understood what you wrote, but I didn't agree with what you wrote.

In reality you misunderstood everything that I stood for in terms of my disappointment with X3. So let's just say that I'm through arguing with you. In closing, I say this once again to you.

 

[newwaveboy87]

Don't start that again! You say there were mental blocks, I say that was a rabbit pulled out of the hat at the last second in X3 to find a convenient way to make Jean evil, which was not hinted or suggested by the first 2 films. Especially when Jean points out to Logan "he's teaching me to develoy" my powers. Not "control my powers", not "holding back my powers", and she becomes quite defensive when Logan dares to suggest that she's being held back. But to each his own.

Xaiver says that Jean has no knowledge that the mental blocks were put in place. of course she's going to say that he's helping her develop her powers. it's all a big lie/coverup. and you just stated the Jean's mood/emotions fluctuated quickly, which earlier you said, she never did in any of films. i think you might've just hurt your own logic.

the mental blocks, and her lack of power, work well together to explain why she goes power mad. she had no prior knowledge of the mental blocks, she thought that the session with Xaiver where there to help her develop her powers, when in reality, Xaiver was trying to keep the blocks there, and SLOWLY build up her understanding of her powers so she could keep them in check. he did put mental blocks on her too in the comics. i fail to see why people were surprised when they discovered that he did it in the films.

there are hints in both of the films that something is not right with Jean. she reaction to using Cerebro, her mood swing with Logan, her reaction to Magneto's machine, the way she causing electronic equiptment to freak out, how her powers spike for no reason and then stop working. it's all there to show that there's something off about her.

It makes me laugh too. Then I get angry and I want to kick the writers. Stryker wanted Xavier to CURE his son. Something that Xavier could not do. Unfortunately, Stryker did not understand that, so he became angry, threw a tantrum, and turned his kid into a drooling mass on a wheelchair that Stryker drained cerebral fluid from to inject into other mutants. I hardly see Xavier's actions as being evil or dark. His inability to come up with a magic cure for Stryker's kid is not his fault, or a sign that the man has a dark side. Rather, it's a sign that the man has his limitations and mutations, like being fat, does not have a magic cure or pill that one can take. At least until X3 comes around.

Xaiver's past comes under fire when he says that even he couldn't help Jason so he sent him back home, where his powers caused his mother to commit suicide. granted, Xaiver couldn't have known that was going to happen, but he's responsible in a way for that deed and brings about Stryker's wraith.

Magneto questions what's the point in Xaiver keeping around Wolverine. he even asks him if it's a way to redeem himself for Stryker's son. why would Magneto asks if Xaiver's keeping someone around for redemption if there wasn't something dark in his past?

 

[Uncanny]

If I remember, I read somewhere that Fox wanted X3 to be like X-Men Vs Magneto. I would have liked it if OUR Foursome: Cyclops, Jean/Phoenix, Wolverine and Storm were involved with additional more of our fave X-Men like Beast, Iceman, Angel, Kitty and Rogue. It would have been like old times. old times... but what an apportunity Fox missed.

I wanted to see the main X-Men, Wolverine, Cyclops, Jean, Storm, Iceman, and Rogue work together as a team to fight Magneto, Sinister, Apocalypse etc.


Then add newer ones like Beast, Angel, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Gambit, Bishop
Kitty etc.

Fox added newer ones, when we really do not know anything about Cyclops, Jean, or Storm at all.

 

[newwaveboy87]

Jean's had a big role in all three films.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

I read what you wrote. I understood what you wrote, but I didn't agree with what you wrote.

You don't agree that everyone's opinions should be respected?


You suck.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

You don't agree that everyone's opinions should be respected?


You suck.

I know I do... -shrugs-

 

[LastSunrise1981]

You don't agree that everyone's opinions should be respected?


You suck.

I agree that everyones opinion should be respected. Just as long as they're intelligent and not rude about it.

I don't agree that X-Maniac, Weatherwitch, and Danoyse are what you would consider as intelligent posters. But whatever, you can like what you like for all I care, all I know is what I know and feel. So if you want to accept X3 for the flawed film that it is, then be my guest. I don't care.

Just don't expect those who are disappointed to sit down, shut up, and to stop "whining".

I understand some people aren't familiar with the comics. However, it's part of the reason why they need to pick up some copies, watch the The Animated Series, and just become educated on the concept/storyline that is X-Men. I don't hate anyone who enjoys X3, nor do I look down on anyone who happens to love it and enjoy it.

But it's obvious you didn't read the posts that The Batman displayed, or else you'd see X-Maniac is guilty of the same thing that I'm saying. So, there's no victim playing here my friend, all I've done is stated facts.

 

[newwaveboy87]

X-Maniac is one of the most intelligent/nicest posters around the X-Men boards.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

Just don't expect those who are disappointed to sit down, shut up, and to stop "whining".

I don't. I never asked for that. I asked for you, and others alike, to stop the petty name-calling and accusations. That's all.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

X-Maniac is one of the most intelligent/nicest posters around the X-Men boards.

Guess that's why he ragged on Nell for pointing out the negatives of X3? The Batman provided proof on how X-Maniac called Nell "a Singer fanboy" or "not a true superhero fan", and "Not a true X-Men fan".

So yes, he has a bit of a nasty side to him, especially when it comes to disagreeing with his everlasting love of X3.

 

[newwaveboy87]

Guess that's why he ragged on Nell for pointing out the negatives of X3? The Batman provided proof on how X-Maniac called Nell "a Singer fanboy" or "not a true superhero fan", and "Not a true X-Men fan".

So yes, he has a bit of a nasty side to him, especially when it comes to disagreeing with his everlasting love of X3.

oh please, you act like Nell's never done something along those lines. we're all guilty of throwing around a bad attitude from time to time. since the film came out i've come around this particular board only briefly and with large gaps of time because of how hostile it got.

i see...it still is.

it would be better if you didn't make the situation worse by arguing with others ad nauseum. leave it alone. move on. put people on ignore. there's a reason these things were given to us. use them.

 

[Goddessreicho]

Love the new sig Ntcrawler.

I have refrained from this thread for a while now, but I think I can finally put my thoughts in words.

Let me start by saying what I thought of the first two movies. I hated them. No really, there was for me to hate than like. When I left the midnight premire of the first movie, I was angry. I wanted my 8.00 dollars back. I was bored and unimpressed by the flat attempt at a reimagining of a cultural icon I grew up with. The only two things in the movie that didn't make me want to pull out my hair were Patrick and Ian. Everyone else was less than a shadow of their counterparts. No complex characters, faults, or with personalities. Singer and crew (writers and actors) IMO missed the mark completely. Then to give us a generic evil plan and a generic evil mechanical device to one of the most complex characters in the MU. WTF! The other six people I was with felt the same way.

The ony people who had any story or importance to the plot where Wolverine and Rogue. It was only for a brief moment that we were able to see what makes the x-men, well x-men. Teamwork. When getting tossed around by Toad, and the final part of the Statue of Liberty before everyone was rescued by Wolverine, again.

This pattern continued with X2. None of the flaws that were there before were fixed. It was like nobody had the guts to tell them what went wrong. Scott and Jean were overlooked and underwhelmed. Storm was ignored, why IMO to much anomosity between alot of people and it was taken out on screen and it came of badly for the character. Rogue was trumped up a bit with personality, finally, but then was stuck with dry, flat, boring, and soft Bobby. *Yawn!* Again the sense of teamwork was overtaken by Wolverine's over extended fight with Yuriko and his backstory which was pounded into us, yet again. Also Scott and his realationship took a backseat to Logan and his libido.

I find it ironic that people LOVE to complain about how in X3 people forgot about Scott, when he was kidnapped and totured in X2 and NO ONE EVEN MENTIONED HIM, nor did they look for him for an hour in the movie. Jean was surprised that she ran into him at Akali. That was wrong on so many levels. First of all she has a psychic bond with him, she should have known he was there. Again, they should have used Cerbro to find out that he was there.

Alot of people who hate X3 forget to mention that the same thing happened to Scott in X2.


My personal opinions on X3 are the similar. The major characters had holes and ran around doing things with no reason. It was oddly paced and strange alot. It went in a complete different direction. I hated the fact that Storm still served no purpose in the plot. Wolverine was still doing everything, and managed to d**k teamwork from behind.

Nothing changed, and I hated that. But X3 can be a launching pad for a new direction for upcoming sequels. More thorough writting would be essential.

 

[ntcrawler]

Poor Storm, poor Halle. In X2, she wanted to fly, so they made her the X-Jet's copilot. In X3, she wanted her character to do more, so they gave her the keys to the mansion. Won't they ever learn?

 

[The Ones]

Goddessreicho, cyclops was underwhelmed in X-2, but atleast he wasnt killed for no reason

 

[danoyse]

I agree that everyones opinion should be respected. Just as long as they're intelligent and not rude about it.

I don't agree that X-Maniac, Weatherwitch, and Danoyse are what you would consider as intelligent posters. But whatever, you can like what you like for all I care, all I know is what I know and feel. So if you want to accept X3 for the flawed film that it is, then be my guest. I don't care.

Just don't expect those who are disappointed to sit down, shut up, and to stop "whining".

I understand some people aren't familiar with the comics. However, it's part of the reason why they need to pick up some copies, watch the The Animated Series, and just become educated on the concept/storyline that is X-Men. I don't hate anyone who enjoys X3, nor do I look down on anyone who happens to love it and enjoy it.

But it's obvious you didn't read the posts that The Batman displayed, or else you'd see X-Maniac is guilty of the same thing that I'm saying. So, there's no victim playing here my friend, all I've done is stated facts.

So wanting people to not be rude applies to everyone but you?

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I agree that everyones opinion should be respected. Just as long as they're intelligent and not rude about it.

I don't agree that X-Maniac, Weatherwitch, and Danoyse are what you would consider as intelligent posters.

Why do you do that?

Do you realize the utter hypocrisy that riddles your post above? Out of one side of your mouth you claim that people should be respected, yet in the very next breath you denounce those peers as ones lacking intelligence? What is up with that? Are you attacking the subject at hand or your fellow debators? Which is it going to be?

Let's be crystal clear here: personalized attacks like that fan the flames on this board. Stop making them.

And that warning goes for all of you.

 

[newwaveboy87]

Was anyone really surprised about Lance from Nsync?

is that a serious question Caliph? you got to be ****ing kidding me with that one.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

is that a serious question Caliph? you got to be ****ing kidding me with that one.

It's a rhetorical question.

At any rate, it has nothing to do with Nell's thread, so let's not derail it.