Batman Begins Now it's my turn: Doc's problems with Begins...

[Red Mask]

Shocked? More like thankful

Hey, I like Burton's take more. But last year people thought BB was the dog's bollock's and were licking it like it was. Just goes to show how the tide changes in this medium.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Nah, you seem to say the same thing over and over. And frankly, I'm secure enough to know I liked it, and if that means I have bad judgement when it comes to films, well...it's not like I claimed to be an expert.

IIRC, aren't these the same criticism that were around when the film came out?

When I joined the hype a few months back, saying anything against BB was frowned upon, like a crazy cult. Only over the last few weeks has the criticism really started on the hype, I can't really comment on stuff beforehand, as I'm only a few months into the hype.

 

[christpunchers]

Im not gonna lie, i love this thread. Good to see that people arent following the hype blindly. The first time I saw begins, i thought i was watching a quick cut documentary. The fights were unwatchable, the pacing was almost too fast at times, and though it is a good somewhat faithful rendition of batman, i thought nolan played the game too safe, each character including bruce felt somewhat wooden. Many of the lines were way too cheesey, like how within 4 lines of Ras meeting bruce he already goes into that whole "you become a legend" stuff...... i mean come on....

my beef with the movie is not that its bad, i would give it a 8/10 after viewing it multiple times, but it definetly is not a "fun" ride more of a "yes i guess this is how they should have done it" sort of ride and nothing more. Yes you dont want to overstylize the thing but the way they did it the movie felt very flat during many scenes (more and more noticable after 3-4 viewings).

I guess what im trying to say is that they didnt want to take any risks and made it as straightforward and as bland as possible.... tahts not a bad choice after the first 4 movies but they overdid this philosophy. While its not boring, its not something i would tune in and watch if i happen to catch it on tv.

 

[christpunchers]

Only thing I know Burton's movie lacked of is spoonfeeding. People find excellent motivations and development when they just talk a lot about it in a movie so no one can get lost.



No more no less than saying, this movie vision is what I wanted to see. Cool, but that doesn't magically make it a better movie per se.

I'll spoonfeed for you: Burton's Batman motivation is revenge. No, he has no principles but get rid of criminals and no, he doesn-t have a non killing code. As in other moives, the villiain has a big role and that proves nothing per se. When we see King Kong, the main character is Jack Driscoll or Ann Darrow.

This is not arrogance since nothing extraordinary is needed to realize that.



I won't deny Nolan's excellent development with Bruce's character. But connection don't come only in most screentime.

Keaton's attachment is like anything else, as you want it to be.

Now the really intriguing question is why do you need secondary chracaters so bad.



Spoonfeed again: revenge and revenge respectively. Even so, in Penguin's case, it is fully verbally explained in the scene with Schreck, so you have no excuse here.



And... you say Ra's is not the 'They did this to me, they'll pay' - 'human being is a monster, I'll purify the Earth' cliché? C'mon, certain things are still the same. It's only how do we phrase them to make it look bad.



Spoonfeed 3; out of revenge, the same those high society class people did to him he's doing back, paybeack, revenge, vengeance. Selina prefers to remain an outcast because she knows nothing is gonna change about powerful people like Max, which is such a big motivation that she can't live without it, so much she prefers to kill him by herself. It's like a woman asking Bruce to go away but Bruce can't stop being Batman. Only Selina is clearly more temperamental.



Best superhero origin is still STM.

Both Burton and Nolan have their good points and flaws as far as I can see. Sadly for me, Nolan's flaws help me from saying it's the masterpiece sometime I was hoping it to be. That said, I can clearly see it's the same for you with Burton. I can still enjoy BB for the lot of good things though.

Bravo el paso, right on.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Yeah, chirstpunches has a point. BB feels more like a chore than a fun film. B89 dazzles me, takes me on an adventure in an imaginary world. BB feels as dry as reading an essay ABOUT Batman. Like it's going through the motions.

 

[Visionary]

Wait a minute, wait a minute, what happened? Before you all were praising this movie to no end, saying it's the best comic book movie, hell, the best movie ever...now you all are peeing on it like R. Kelly. Did I miss something...what gives?

 

[kenellard]

Wait a minute, wait a minute, what happened? Before you all were praising this movie to no end, saying it's the best comic book movie, hell, the best movie ever...now you all are peeing on it like R. Kelly. Did I miss something...what gives?

The honeymoon's over, and thank god for that. Begins is woeful

 

[Cyrusbales]

yes, thank god people are starting to se the light!

 

[mister Lennon]

I think that someone should change the light bulb, because this new light isnt very clear.

 

[El Payaso]

Please gentlemen, leave the hotel. Honeymoon's over.

 

[mister Lennon]

Its a covert way to propose me marriage?

 

[El Payaso]

You need help. Amazon can give it to you.

 

[mister Lennon]

For what i could see, its your reference book in your bed.

 

[kenellard]

You need help. Amazon can give it to you.

BUUUUUUURRRRRNNN!!!!

 

[hitmanyr2k]

Right on the button.

It's OK and even intriguing to have one fight that is almost completely incomprehensible, putting us in the criminals' shoes, so to speak, but to have *all* the fights play out that way is lazy, clumsy, uninvolving and even painful. I think the first Spider-Man got it right. When Parker chases the murderer of his uncle down and basically traps him in that derelict building, Raimi skillfully cuts between the criminal's bewilderment and fear over where his mysterious pursuer is, the criminal's POV, and Parker momentarily sliding down from the ceiling, the audience's POV. But all the fights in BB are a jolting, random blur. It doesn't end there. I want to get onto something that few people seem to talk about now.

While I have heard people defend all the fights on the grounds that Batman is essentially a ninja crime fighter here, I have never heard a good rebuttal for the tumbler chase sequence, which is five minutes of agonising cut after cut. Now, true, you can tell what is transpiring, but it's an effort, and I personally got no vicarious thrill from the entire sequence whatsoever. The chase sequence is up on YouTube (just put in "Batman", "tumbler" and "chase") for quick access. I challenge *anyone* to the following: once the chase actually begins (i.e. after Gordon has delivered his obligatory quips), start counting each and every time the shot changes. I guarantee that you will not find a *single* shot in excess of four seconds. In fact, when you begin counting, you'll be surprised how often the shot changes before you even get to "two" in your head. I am deadly serious. Go and watch it. Give my challenge a whirl. It's a horrible piece of filmmaking. While rapid cuts are to be expected in an action sequence, especially a chase, the load has to be softened with bigger breaks and establishing shots. You get neither in BB. Criticise their weaker films all you like, but talented directors like James Cameron, Steven Spielberg and George Lucas know how to choreograph, frame and edit action sequences, and they have all turned in fabulous results time and time again. Their films are also aided by great sound design and music. I don't get anything from the tumbler sequence (or any other part of the film) on this level, either. You say the music is decent here, Doc, but I disagree. It's only decent to the extent that it's a professional recording. That's it. That's honestly all I can give it. It has no synergy with the visual aspect at all. Even trying to single it out above the din carries no reward whatsoever. It's bland. It sounds like a temp score. The entire chase sequence plays like a bad trailer for the real thing. From the horrible cuts, to the awful quips, to the gas-guzzling tank that serves as a Batmobile, to the carnal and savage driving, it feels designed with the xXx generation in mind. I really feel like I'm being treated as a meathead. The tumbler was a major coup in terms of marketing. They ****ed that thing out to the nines. People objected to the "Drive Thru" quip in BF, but this is far worse: this is mass market commercialism aggressively planted into what is meant to be a serious and thoughtful film. The film wants to be seen as a high-minded treatment of Batman, but then it goes and serves up the most crass and unimaginative five minute action sequence conceivable.

Let's stick with the chase sequence for a minute. I know this is turning into an essay, but considering it's a major setpiece in the film, featuring what is meant to be an iconic element of the Batman mythos, I think it says a *lot* about Nolan and about the kind of film BB actually is. I wrote a review of this film on IMDb and called it "The Emperor's New Clothes". I simply cannot read any profundity or depth into a film that offers such a hideous setpiece and carries it on for five minutes and mutilates an essential piece of iconography in the process. It's criminal. What's more, the film wants to be seen as a "real world" interpretation of Batman, where people behave realistically and actions have consequences, but just how realistic and morally consistent is this film to make an issue of Batman not wanting to take lives (Bruce's own words), yet have him speeding over rooftops, trashing property, crushing police cars, flipping them over and generally being a tank-driving tyrant? He shows no regret or remorse for these actions. He doesn't even ponder them at all. Moreover, why are the police so stupid? If all it takes for Batman to evade them in a 10-ton killing machine that's being marked by a dozen cars and a helicopter is to turn off his lights on a narrow freeway, I'm not surprised that Gotham was overrun with criminals till he showed up! It's bloody ridiculous. Gordon himself has no backbone. I don't care how flustered he is by the corruption and how grateful he is to Batman for cleaning it up, he should still rebuke him for the damage. Harshly. A whole bunch of his own boys potentially got maimed and killed. Oldman plays Gordon as a spineless nitwit. I've got no idea what he's like in the comics that BB is based on (Oldman certainly *looks* like his ink and paper counterpart), but the storytelling comes off as hopelessly thin. That Oldman is just used for quips, at least here, only adds insult to injury. While I have said *some* positive things about BB in another thread, and elsewhere, contemplating this sequence makes me want to take them all bad. It's one of the most wretched things I've seen in an acclaimed film. Ebert *liked* this...? I actually dont mind him liking the film, nor anyone else, but I'm surprised he didn't heave at this part, given his tendency for looking down his nose at cult entertainments like Star Wars and more obscure comic adaptations like TMNT.

That went on longer than I expected or wanted it to, but film is a precious medium, and when one is crafting a film, one should treat it with the utmost respect. It's art. It's magic. It's a portal. The only thing I will give the tumbler sequence is that it seems to be dominated by practical effects and not visual ones. That's a step back to quality filmmaking of old. CG has infested filmmaking, and if there's one thing BB gets right, it's a welcome return to old values and old ways. But only as far as craftmanship goes. Everything else about the tumbler sequence is everything *wrong* with filmmaking today. This whole sequence is as stupid and insulting as anything in B&R. It only lacks the neon. That's very controversial, but merely an opinion. I framed a load of that as fact and I didn't mean to. But I can't get anything positive from the way this sequence I've been blathering on about was finally assembled. My issues with the film don't end there, but the chase sequence basically sums the real tone of the film up. It's a microscopic summary of the phoney macrocosm it exists within. There is absolutely no style and no originality at all. The *only* thing that remotely resembles a cool and interesting idea that is neither offensive nor incongruous is when the tumbler goes crashing through the waterfall. That's it. See, the film needs an aesthetic all of its own and doesn't get one. There are different degrees of fantasy and reality in comic movies, but BB wants to be exceedingly literal all the way. "Jung archetype"? That is the kind of thing you leave outside of a film like this. It's what a viewer or analyst may or may not apply when examining the art itself. But when the art *is* the explanation, or some flimsy attempt at one, you're left with nothing. Art is meant to be an abstraction of the world and of human experience. (You can't spell "abstraction" without it!). This is why the Burton films, and even the Schumacher films to some extent, are qualitatively better pictures to me. They create these spaces for you to play in. I'm back to framing things as fact, but once again, that's all my opinion. The best analogy I can draw is of something like a "Whacky Warehouse"-type play pen. With the Burton and Schumacher films, they *are* the play pen, but they are beckoning you to enter and go wild. Nolan's picture is both the play pen and the kid who goes round for you. You just get to watch from the outside. You cannot partake. Someone else is having all the fun and doing all the work for you.

You highlighted my main problem with BB only in much more detail. It's impossible to get any sense of speed with the Tumbler when they can't establish a good camera angle for more than a second. Just about EVERY action scene in BB was edited this way and it was hackworthy. Great post. For that you get an....

 

[El Payaso]

You highlighted my main problem with BB only in much more detail. It's impossible to get any sense of speed with the Tumbler when they can't establish a good camera angle for more than a second. Just about EVERY action scene in BB was edited this way and it was hackworthy.

Which destroys the Ninja style depiction/criminal point of view explanation for the editing.

What pisses me off the most is that good action scenes could have made BB a flawless movie for me.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Meh. I'm a Batman fan.

I took Batman and Robin on the chin, like every other real Batman fan.

Criticism is sooooo not a big deal. I think most of us are just happy we got a good Batman film.

And really, whatever sense of "over joy" some of you saw......think about it. It'd been years since we got a Batman movie. A decade since we got a good Batman movie. First time we ever got one that was like the comics.

****, wouldn't YOU be overjoyed after all that with a film that could finally be seen as a contender against the likes of Superman the Movie and Spider-Man 2.

 

[Cyrusbales]

I am very pleased at your sentiments here I'm glad you enjoyed it and can think of it like that, and people who liked it and pick holes in it, does annoy people. Personally I did not find the film very enjoyable, or a worthy contender, and the problems people have described just add to that. But I know there is no point in arguing with anyone as to how the technical aspects of the film were poor, and the screenplay sucked, and chris bale gave his weakest performance yet.

We can discuss these things in terms of improvement for the next films, Whilst my expectations are not high bor TDK, the following film for me will easily be the best of the trilogy, as Nolan's filmic ego could ruin TDK, but two face will be so easy to bring to the screen successfully that I don't think there's gonna be any issues there.

My mad ramble is now over, for now.

 

[Damiean Dark]

Its so refreashing to see a differing opinion to the BB film. Over at BOF its like youare satan himself if you dare critizise it its not enjoyable end of story its good but you get no excitement from the movie the editing is very amaturish (especially the batmobile sequence) Micheal Caine as Alfred is totally wrong no disrespect to Caine but he is wrong in the role alfred is a gentelmans gentelman not a cockny geezer. Oldman is one of my fav actors but his Gordon rubs me the wrong way he looks the part but this just isnt Gordon to me. Bale tries his best but his dialouge is so pretentious and boring. People knock Keaton but the only department imo where Bale tops him is in his looks his wayne /batman is more interesting and has more shape, he makes you beleive the violent death of his parents would turn him crazy enough to don a batsuit to fight crime.

 

[Travis K]

The fight scenes in Batman Begins sucked. They need a different director.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I say we get Bret Ratner. He did a magnificent job with X3.......

 

[Damiean Dark]

But how many great fight scenes has there been in Batman films? i reckon the scene in B89 when batman fights the guy with the swords its short but it looks great on screen, and BR where Batman fights the red triangle gang goons on the streets i love when he programs the batarang to take down multiple targets.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Those scenes were actually pretty bad.......the red triangle fight scene kinda was odd when he bent down and turned around and stuff. Just...wierd.

Infact....the best fight scene from the previous series is probably from the first Batman film. They were pretty cool. Showing off a really veteran Batman that.....when he felt like it......would just put a dude down.

The fight scenes in BF were kinda cool.....except for the fact that Batman really seemed to struggle with a hell of alot of no-name thugs. Which, takes me back to Batman....he had a hard time with that huge black dude who he needed to pull down a bell tower, but that skinny asian dude with the kick ass swords was a total breeze. In Batman Begins, we kinda get that variation. He has absolutely no problem taking down 10 or 13 guys who are nothing but street muscle. But, he's got some problems when facing 3 or 4 ninjas. That was awesome, I though.

And....sigh...then there's the B&R fight scenes. I mean....does ice skating and playing hockey even count as a fight??

 

[Two-Face]

The fight scenes in Batman Begins sucked. They need a different director.

Let's hire Schuamcher back shall we?

 

[Cyrusbales]

Let's hire Schuamcher back shall we?

I understand where his point was coming from, I personaly don't feel there is anyone I want to tackle Batman at the moment, I'll still watch the Nolan films, but without great expectations. David Fincher would have an interesting veiw on the Joker, but he has some of the same drawbacks that Nolan does with his style, so I'm still unsure, either way it's nice to see Batman onscreen.