Batman Begins Now it's my turn: Doc's problems with Begins...

[Cyrusbales]

I loved the mystery personally, so B89 hits the nail on the head.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I dunno, I guess the mystery of his character was interesting. But, I'd had preferred if we got more of him. The Joker is probably more interesting when left as a mystery, as opposed to Batman being the mystery.

 

[Cyrusbales]

I feel the opposite to be honest, i like the way the joker mentions how he's 'taken off the make-up' and the mystery, so batman is the mystery etc...

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Hmmmm. Interesting.

I mean, I guess because I feel more connected to the Batman/Bruce Wayne character I have a high demand for so much more into his character for it.

 

[Cyrusbales]

yeah i'm a freak wanting to know about the joker, lol. I think batman should be feared, and mystery is a good way to do that, I don't wanna know about his past much, just pieces, dark and brooding is the way to go for me.

 

[MacLeod]

I love 89's mystery and darkness element. I don't get that from Begins. I don't mind that the Joker was the strong point of the movie, I think it was played well. With 89 I only would want a little back story, tid bits of info of how or why he became Batman. Begins obviously went into the backstory more but I didn't like it, I found too many flaws. Maybe I was looking for them because I really wanted it to be in the 89 movie, I'm not sure. Batman89 is the one for me, it makes me feel a certain way when I watch it, and that's what I like about it, give a little hint of history to it and I would never leave my living room.

 

[Damiean Dark]

I think B89 is a more epic film overall i still see BB as an indie film.

 

[Two-Face]

People complain that in Burton Batman there was no information on Dark Knight now we get that in Nolan's Batman "yeah I actually liked not knowning Batman's past" I mean that's like saying comics was wrong about explaining his past.

Everyone talks like there is no "flaws" in Burton Batman. If you like title character playing supporting character that's fine by me, I like Burton Bat movies much as next guy but why bash Begins?

 

[El Payaso]

Truth is the story works both ways.

 

[Batman jr.]

So, this all means that I, who has just come back after almost a year absence, should leave again just because I STILL like Batman begins? It's not a masterpiece, but it's a good start for the next ones. They take their time, which is a good thing.

Anyone else that still likes BB ???

Ok, this I like about the film:

1) BALE
2) OLDMAN
3) Murphy
4) Neeson
5) The ending

What I didn't like:

1) Katie Holmes
2) The "aging" of certain characters: Gordon, Loeb, Alfred & Earl haven't aged much in 20 years...
3) Ra's Al Ghul: I immediatly saw that Neeson was not only Ducard.
4) The score: bah.


I even own Batman (1989) and I still like it. But this is NOLAN a different director. Burton started good, but only the first one is really watchable. What has returns to do with Batman ??? A penguin that has black slime or something like that, cars that are all the same ??? a Disney Gotham ???
Forever was not too bad (but why did they cut some key scenes ???, even though it was Schumacher) and B&R... Well, still one of the worst movies I've ever seen.

Sorry, but I can say the things that I don't like about Nolan's take. Some of the Burton fans seem to think that his movies are the Godfather 1&2 of the superheromovies. Please, accept that these films also have their flaws and if you don't like BB, good, but stay far away from it.

And what other superherofilm is good ? Fantastic four ? Daredevil ?

 

[MacLeod]

I never thought 89 was 100% perfect but I like it more than the rest, and more than Begins. Different directors does not mean I have to view the movie differently, I still want to see certain things no matter who is directing it, otherwise there would be people who liked B&R. After all this diliberation I think it is really up to the person viewing it. I think the only problem is the people who will go to the ends of the earth trying to defend their opinion. I liked Begins, but I liked the feel and movie making of 89 and Returns better.

By the way, I actually liked the directors cut of Daredevil.

 

[Agentsands77]

Everyone talks like there is no "flaws" in Burton Batman. If you like title character playing supporting character that's fine by me, I like Burton Bat movies much as next guy but why bash Begins?

Oh, the Burton Batman movies have tons of flaws. Ultimately, all the Bat-films are flawed in one capacity or another. It's just what flaws bother you more, or what you even see as a flaw. Frankly, the Burton flaws bother me the most.

For example:

BATMAN 1989
-The movie is populated with uninteresting characters, including Vicki Vale and Knox. Even Commissioner Gordon is uninteresting.
-Michael Keaton does a great Batman, but I don't particularly like his Bruce Wayne.
-I really dislike that the Joker is the Waynes' killer.
-The narrative is somewhat cloudy.
-The action is pretty shoddy.
-That moment where Batman takes Vicki back to the cave and they make-out/have sex (it's ambiguous) is absolutely awful.
-I don't like the "comic booky" feel. When I see a movie, I want to feel like I'm watching a movie, not like I'm watching a comic book with the gaps fit in. That's why I prefer the "cinematic equivalent" (Nolan's words) approach.

BATMAN RETURNS
-The characters are more interesting this time, but Burton gets far too grotesque with the Penguin.
-This film is more of a Burton film featuring Batman than a Batman film done by Burton.
-The narrative is entirely unfocused.
-The world is so bizarre that Batman loses any extraordinary quality. He's just one in a thousand.
-That damn penguin army is ridiculous.

And I could go on even with BATMAN BEGINS:
-Katie Holmes is something of a poor actress. Thankfully her character's decent enough, but it doesn't exactly pan out.
-The film somewhat loses its unique identity in the final third, becoming a straight-up action flick with all the action film conventions.
-The action is sometimes a little too choppy.

My lists of flaws will differ from other people's. But my point is, when you look at these films, which ones you prefer becomes highly subjective. People won't like the style of one and prefer the style of another, or some little flaw will irk them so much they can't appreciate a film.

Me? I love BATMAN BEGINS. I think it's a fantastic ride and the closest to greatness the comic book superhero genre has ever gotten.

 

[MacLeod]

Oh, the Burton Batman movies have tons of flaws. Ultimately, all the Bat-films are flawed in one capacity or another. It's just what flaws bother you more, or what you even see as a flaw. Frankly, the Burton flaws bother me the most.

For example:

BATMAN 1989
-The movie is populated with uninteresting characters, including Vicki Vale and Knox. Even Commissioner Gordon is uninteresting.
-Michael Keaton does a great Batman, but I don't particularly like his Bruce Wayne.
-I really dislike that the Joker is the Waynes' killer.
-The narrative is somewhat cloudy.
-The action is pretty shoddy.
-That moment where Batman takes Vicki back to the cave and they make-out/have sex (it's ambiguous) is absolutely awful.
-I don't like the "comic booky" feel. When I see a movie, I want to feel like I'm watching a movie, not like I'm watching a comic book with the gaps fit in. That's why I prefer the "cinematic equivalent" (Nolan's words) approach.




I'll leave Returns alone because I can see how people view it as a Burton movie with Batman. I like it but maybe I'm just a twisted......

I agree with your point that everyone has their own perspective, that is what I always think. With that said I have a small problem/question with some of your views of Batman 1989. I thought Knox was a good comic relief and Vale was a good love interest, could they be better, sure, but so could everything in every movie. How exactly is the action shoddy? I know it was made 17 years ago but at least I can see what is going on. The cut scenes, the close ups, and the fighting in Begins in my opinion is shoddy, I almost dread when he becomes Batman because I know I will never see anything. When did Batman and Vale make out in the Batcave? If you are refering to the only time he brings her there as Batman I think he just told her the chemical situation, knocked her out, and brought her back home. I never, for one moment, thought they made out or had sex. Finally, maybe it's just because I like it, but I never viewed it as a comic booky. I know it's a movie based on a comic book but I don't see it as comic book like. Batman Forever, and the horrible Batman and Robin, both have the comic book feel that I would be more than happy to agree with you on.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

yeah i'm a freak wanting to know about the joker, lol. I think batman should be feared, and mystery is a good way to do that, I don't wanna know about his past much, just pieces, dark and brooding is the way to go for me.

That's interesting, I think maybe b.c I already know much about his past through the comics, that I want to see it onscreen.

Really, in the comics it's kinda reverse to how Batman 89 did it...where the Joker's past is shrouded completely in mystery and such. Of coruse, then there's Alan Moore's The Killing Joke......

I think B89 is a more epic film overall i still see BB as an indie film.

Really?

I dunno, with the location shots of Batman Begins...it looks epic, and feels epic as well just b/c of how much stuff it covers.

Batman 89 felt like it's own little universe, just b/c of how different and unique it was....and how centered the story felt really.

 

[MacLeod]

I know Begins is more "real" but 89 gives me that gritty sense that I think Batman has to fight. Eventhough the city was made up it makes me think more about NYC more than Begins did. I say NYC because I live close to it and I've been to parts that are just as chotic as 89 makes their Gotham out to be. I don't know if epic is the word to use but it is real to me.

 

[Agentsands77]

How exactly is the action shoddy? I know it was made 17 years ago but at least I can see what is going on.

But it has no impact. It looks silly and awkward (even for a 17-year-old film).

The cut scenes, the close ups, and the fighting in Begins in my opinion is shoddy, I almost dread when he becomes Batman because I know I will never see anything.

There are two fights in BEGINS that I dislike the filming/editing of, and that is the opening fight in the jail and the other is the climactic Ra's/Batman duel. Otherwise, I loved the way the fight scenes were shot - they were very intense, very powerful, and I didn't find them as disorienting as some people did.

When did Batman and Vale make out in the Batcave? If you are refering to the only time he brings her there as Batman I think he just told her the chemical situation, knocked her out, and brought her back home. I never, for one moment, thought they made out or had sex.

Ummm, don't you remember the dialogue in that scene? Where Batman says, "You have something else I want" or something to that effect? Then the soaring music? It indicates, at least from my perspective, that something went down.

And personally, I could understand *why* Burton would do it. It's a Burton-like thing to want, because it shows Bruce Wayne/Batman, with his duality crisis, approaching Vicki romantically from both directions. But it doesn't work.

Finally, maybe it's just because I like it, but I never viewed it as a comic booky. I know it's a movie based on a comic book but I don't see it as comic book like.

I do. Garish costumes, cartoony self-aware performances, unbelievable production design - it's just too stylized to ever feel *real* to me. It looked like I was looking at a soundstage with people in costumes, and I didn't feel like these people were necessarily real. That's always been a problem for me. I've felt the same way about the SPIDER-MAN films.

Batman Forever, and the horrible Batman and Robin, both have the comic book feel that I would be more than happy to agree with you on.

That's comic booky, too. It's a different kind of comic booky.

 

[The Sage]

Ummm, don't you remember the dialogue in that scene? Where Batman says, "You have something else I want" or something to that effect? Then the soaring music? It indicates, at least from my perspective, that something went down.

Yeah, as in Batman took the film in Vicky's bra. She took pictures of him fighting the Joker's thugs in that alley. Afterwards, she took the film out of the camera and stuck it down her dress. Vicky even says "he took the film" when she wakes up at her apartment. The way the entire scene played out, I don't understand how that line could've meant anything sexual in, especially for Batman.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I know Begins is more "real" but 89 gives me that gritty sense that I think Batman has to fight. Eventhough the city was made up it makes me think more about NYC more than Begins did. I say NYC because I live close to it and I've been to parts that are just as chotic as 89 makes their Gotham out to be. I don't know if epic is the word to use but it is real to me.

I don't know about that. I mean, I live in New York....and the Narrows remind me a hell of a lot of Harlem, and just the dirt that seems to cover this city.

Batman 89 was supposed to be New York on drugs. And, it did look like that. It looked like the landscape of the city went wild and became some convoluted design. Again, that was the point of that Gotham City. It was suiting for the Batman they had. Same as the Shumacher Gotham......it was symbolic of that Batman (naked dude statues and neon lights and all....). I don't think it was very real, though.

Something that Burton's Gotham had was character. I think that's the word your looking for. Batman Begins Gotham City had character too......but Burton's Gotham had tons and tons and tons of it. Maybe too much character in Batman Returns.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

But it has no impact. It looks silly and awkward (even for a 17-year-old film).

The only fight scene that stands out to me is the one where he kicks that katana dude in the face. And, that was barely a fight b/c he owned him with one kick. I guess that's what you mean, b/c the other fight scenes are kinda forgettable. Although, him beating the hell out of the Joker was cool....

Ummm, don't you remember the dialogue in that scene? Where Batman says, "You have something else I want" or something to that effect? Then the soaring music? It indicates, at least from my perspective, that something went down.

And personally, I could understand *why* Burton would do it. It's a Burton-like thing to want, because it shows Bruce Wayne/Batman, with his duality crisis, approaching Vicki romantically from both directions. But it doesn't work.

This is the first time I've heard of it......and now it makes sense. I mean..I always read that line as a bit sexual....and then when I saw that she had hidden the film in her bra.....well.....yeah......

I do. Garish costumes, cartoony self-aware performances, unbelievable production design - it's just too stylized to ever feel *real* to me. It looked like I was looking at a soundstage with people in costumes, and I didn't feel like these people were necessarily real. That's always been a problem for me. I've felt the same way about the SPIDER-MAN films.

I actually think alot of superhero films do that, though. Batman Begins never seems to step back and poke itself at all. I don't think the first two Superman films didn't either. The X-Men films did have a few instances where they kinda stare back at you and let you know "this is a comic book movie" type thing......the "yellow spandex" line, for example.

But, then again...the stylization of the Burton films is something people have gotten on him about, especially in Batman Returns.

That's comic booky, too. It's a different kind of comic booky.

I think he means comic booky in the stereotypical way. Ya know.....that it's not serious, kinda funny, just for kids.....which, isn't comic booky at all.

Porbably more 1960's comic booky....

Yeah, as in Batman took the film in Vicky's bra. She took pictures of him fighting the Joker's thugs in that alley. Afterwards, she took the film out of the camera and stuck it down her dress. Vicky even says "he took the film" when she wakes up at her apartment. The way the entire scene played out, I don't understand how that line could've meant anything sexual in, especially for Batman.

Well...thinking about it now.....he did have to reach into her dress, and her bra and atleast cup a feel.

Infact, if he hadn't slept with her before that.....people might say Batman had sexually assaulted her.

 

[The Sage]

Well...thinking about it now.....he did have to reach into her dress, and her bra and atleast cup a feel.

Infact, if he hadn't slept with her before that.....people might say Batman had sexually assaulted her.

He had already hit it days before so why cop another feel?

But Batman was always all business with her so I didn't see it as a sexual line.

 

[El Payaso]

Please, every flaw by agenmtsands77 has its equivalent in BB:

-The movie is populated with uninteresting characters, including Vicki Vale and Knox. Even Commissioner Gordon is uninteresting.

-The movie is populated with uninteresting characters, including Rachel Dawes, Flass and Earle. Even Jonathan Crane is uninteresting.

-Michael Keaton does a great Batman, but I don't particularly like his Bruce Wayne.

- Christian Bale does a great Bruce Wayne, but I don't particularly like his Batman.

-I really dislike that the Joker is the Waynes' killer.

- I really dislike that Ducard is Ra's.

-The narrative is somewhat cloudy.

-The narrative is somewhat rushy.

-The action is pretty shoddy.

- No action but chopped pieces of shots unfollowably glued.

-That moment where Batman takes Vicki back to the cave and they make-out/have sex (it's ambiguous) is absolutely awful.

- What happened between Batman and Vicki wasn't there and your mind put it there, so don't blame the movie. For all we know Batman just gassed Vicki and sent her home. Btw, Bale's Bruce couldn't bed one single girl there, for all I know he's a virgin bat.

-I don't like the "comic booky" feel. When I see a movie, I want to feel like I'm watching a movie, not like I'm watching a comic book with the gaps fit in. That's why I prefer the "cinematic equivalent" (Nolan's words) approach.

Sheesh. You can't be that fool that you think you're actually reading a comic book. No one is. This is just running out of ideas.

My lists of flaws will differ from other people's. But my point is, when you look at these films, which ones you prefer becomes highly subjective. People won't like the style of one and prefer the style of another, or some little flaw will irk them so much they can't appreciate a film.

I think this is perecisely your problem. Any tiny personal disagreement with the style is a no appreciation way for you. You didn't like the colors in the movie = flaw.

Want real flaws? Gordon-Batman relationship never explored; Batman origin not explored enough; Batman killing reasons not explored; Alfred letting Vicki into the Batcave not explained enough; Batman goes to Axis to blow it away at the end, if he knew that was the problem why didn't he do it before?

I'm dissapointed, me, a Batman 89 fan have to point out worthy flaws myself!

 

[Batman jr.]

I never thought 89 was 100% perfect but I like it more than the rest, and more than Begins. Different directors does not mean I have to view the movie differently, I still want to see certain things no matter who is directing it, otherwise there would be people who liked B&R. After all this diliberation I think it is really up to the person viewing it. I think the only problem is the people who will go to the ends of the earth trying to defend their opinion. I liked Begins, but I liked the feel and movie making of 89 and Returns better.

By the way, I actually liked the directors cut of Daredevil.

Freedom of speech is important. But what Burton did with Batman returns, sorry...

 

[Damiean Dark]

The scene where batman says you have something i want is sooo none sexual he knocks her out to get the photos simple as that she doesnt even know Batman is Bruce by then people who see anything sexual in this scene have serious problems or are to young to know better.

 

[Agentsands77]

Please, every flaw by agenmtsands77 has its equivalent in BB:

Well, it goes back to my original point. It depends what you consider to be flaws. It's all subjective, with nothing objective about them.

-The movie is populated with uninteresting characters, including Rachel Dawes, Flass and Earle. Even Jonathan Crane is uninteresting.

See, I don't agree. I thought Flass and Earle and Crane were fascinating, and Dawes was somewhat forgettable, but her role was important enough that it didn't bug me too much.

- Christian Bale does a great Bruce Wayne, but I don't particularly like his Batman.

Again goes to prove how subjective this whole business is.

- I really dislike that Ducard is Ra's.

Didn't bother me in the least.

-The narrative is somewhat rushy.

I agree, but at least there *was* a clear narrative.

- No action but chopped pieces of shots unfollowably glued.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

- What happened between Batman and Vicki wasn't there and your mind put it there, so don't blame the movie. For all we know Batman just gassed Vicki and sent her home.

Then what is the "other thing" that Batman wants? Explain that line, and I'll let it rest.

Sheesh. You can't be that fool that you think you're actually reading a comic book. No one is. This is just running out of ideas.

Your superior attitude is precisely what's wrong with forums such as this.

I think this is perecisely your problem. Any tiny personal disagreement with the style is a no appreciation way for you. You didn't like the colors in the movie = flaw.

Flaws are, quite simply, things people don't like. One man's flaw is another man's favorite element. There's nothing objective about them.

Want real flaws? Gordon-Batman relationship never explored; Batman origin not explored enough; Batman killing reasons not explored; Alfred letting Vicki into the Batcave not explained enough; Batman goes to Axis to blow it away at the end, if he knew that was the problem why didn't he do it before?

All good flaws as well (some of those bug me more than others - Batman killing never bothered me, since it was a staple of the early Batman years).

 

[El Payaso]

Well, it goes back to my original point. It depends what you consider to be flaws. It's all subjective, with nothing objective about them.

I totally got it, but if you point out flaws then it forces someone else to compare or at least wonder strongly the reason of some of your points.

Didn't bother me in the least.

Here for example. You say you hated B89 character merging and when same thing happens in BB it's ok. So one's left here scratching the head forever.

I agree, but at least there *was* a clear narrative.

And what is blurry on the B89 narrative?

Then what is the "other thing" that Batman wants? Explain that line, and I'll let it rest.

The film of the pictures that Vicki took of Batman, as it's explained more than clearly in the next scene (Vicki at her apartment touching her boob and noticing the film's missing.)

Your superior attitude is precisely what's wrong with forums such as this.

I apologize.

The thing is that the suppossedly 'comic booky feel' is not a flaw. It's like saying 'I don't like the blue color so if the movie had blue in it I post it as a flaw.'

Flaws are, quite simply, things people don't like. One man's flaw is another man's favorite element. There's nothing objective about them.

Not exactly. If there's a plothole that's not explained at all, that's a flaw. If there's something particular you didn't like then it's just something you didn't like. I prefer the Burton's style but I still can enjoy Nolan's visuals and won't list it as a flaw just because I didn't like it as much as other one.

All good flaws as well (some of those bug me more than others - Batman killing never bothered me, since it was a staple of the early Batman years).

I was never bothered about Batman killing either, but it could be some reflections about it.