Batman Begins Now it's my turn: Doc's problems with Begins...

[Two-Face]

I understand where his point was coming from, I personaly don't feel there is anyone I want to tackle Batman at the moment, I'll still watch the Nolan films, but without great expectations. David Fincher would have an interesting veiw on the Joker, but he has some of the same drawbacks that Nolan does with his style, so I'm still unsure, either way it's nice to see Batman onscreen.

Fight scenes wasn't THAT bad, sure we couldn't see Batman kicking ass but Nolan did explain on the DVD why he shot the scenes like that.

David Fincher is great director and Se7en is oner of my favourites but I say continue with Nolan I want his version of Two-Face & The Joker.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Fight scenes wasn't THAT bad, sure we couldn't see Batman kicking ass but Nolan did explain on the DVD why he shot the scenes like that.

David Fincher is great director and Se7en is oner of my favourites but I say continue with Nolan I want his version of Two-Face & The Joker.

As you know by now, my 'beef' isn't just with the fight scenes, but BB was a copaible film, and I will watch the others, I do feel that they'll get better as BB was a major disapointment for me. I personally wouldn't like Fincher, as he'd mess up batman, but his take on the Joker would be awesome though, can't deny that!

I don't feel there is anyone who is perfectly suited to direct batman, when burton took on batman, it seemed right, like it was meant to be, i don't feel that at the mo, but of course, two face deserves a decent on screen portrayal and I think we'll get that!

 

[cujo66]

Originally Posted by kenellard
I think you need to read his post before deciding whether it deserves its own thread...

I just skimmed through it. And nothing met my eye from his post that warrants having it's own thread.

...you certainly sound like a militant-nolanite, which would explain your refusal to read his essey.

I've acknowledged the faults with this film which immediately renders useless your slapstick "militant nolanite" label. So please, do refrain from indulging yourself in such juvenile activities without having a proper grasp of what you're talking about.

And incidentally I made the "Overrated?" thread to discuss fan reaction to BB, not the merits of the film itself...

Everyone is posting their qualms with the film in that thread or even the "Those who disliked Begins - why?" thread, and appropriately so, including posters like Cryogenic and Morgoth. And there was nothing in Doc's essay that was so radically different from Cryogenic's own criticisms that Doc had to make a new thread for it.

so try not to be such a jackass in future, there's more to life than batman begins

So says the "jackass" who's dedicated an entire thread to discuss how "overrated" Batman Begins is. Teh LOL. :

Hey, I didn't find the other thread, I found this one. I was just struck by the arguing going on on the first page of this thread, I don't have the time to read through all 6 pages to see how it played out, and I don't have time to read through all 12 pages of the other thread either.

Hey let's get a grip. It's an internet forum, and it's about comic books. Is it worth post after post of wheather the thread should have been started. Let the mods decide if it's needed or not.

I love a comic book movie, and I love a informative forum, like this one is. But cool down.

On topic, I was watching BB last night, and I just can't get into anymore. There are great points in this thread over what's weak about BB and I agree with most of them.

 

[El Payaso]

Fight scenes wasn't THAT bad, sure we couldn't see Batman kicking ass but Nolan did explain on the DVD why he shot the scenes like that.

I'm sure John Travolta has a great explanation about Battlefiend Earth. Explanations - cool or poor ones - don't make a movie any better.

But yeah, we need a better way of doing them before changing Nolan. He must stay.

 

[Eros]

my only major problem with batman begins [besides the microwave emitter] is the second half of the movie follows the exact same formula of every other Batman movie since Batman89. Burton created the modern formula for a batman movie

-Batman arrives in Gotham, police,criminals and media are shocked and confused, is he a man on a monster
-Bruce Wayne makes a public apperances again.
- Batman/Bruce Wayne love interest is introduced or reintroduced.
-Batman is seen buy the police, but they put on a lid on it from the media.
-Batman uncovers a plot to destroy the city.
-The love interest somehow gets involoved with evil scheme to destroy city.
-Batman saves love interest in grand fashion and takes her back to his batcave.
-Batman gives said love interest some info, to help take down badguys.
-Bruce meets the main badguy, and something big happens which shifts the movie into a higher gear.
-Badguy has massive plan to destory city[or kill alot of people] in some grand fashion.
-Bruce recovers from a major life changeing event, and suits up to save the city.
- Batman ends up saving the love interest from death, and then reveals his identity to her in some fashion.
-Batman has final battle with badguy, usaully in some highly improbblay massive location[train,fotress,tower,penguin sewer,telescope]
-The movie ends with the the city excepting or rexcepting batman as its protector in some fashion.
-Bruce and his love interest wonder if they can have a relationship, and then they kiss.
-Batman has one final scene reassuring the audience that hes here to stay.

that is a typical Batman live action movie formula, Begins had some new stuff,but still basically stuck with the formula.

 

[Cyrusbales]

very insightful! And true!

 

[cujo66]

my only major problem with batman begins [besides the microwave emitter] is the second half of the movie follows the exact same formula of every other Batman movie since Batman89. Burton created the modern formula for a batman movie

-Batman arrives in Gotham, police,criminals and media are shocked and confused, is he a man on a monster
-Bruce Wayne makes a public apperances again.
- Batman/Bruce Wayne love interest is introduced or reintroduced.
-Batman is seen buy the police, but they put on a lid on it from the media.
-Batman uncovers a plot to destroy the city.
-The love interest somehow gets involoved with evil scheme to destroy city.
-Batman saves love interest in grand fashion and takes her back to his batcave.
-Batman gives said love interest some info, to help take down badguys.
-Bruce meets the main badguy, and something big happens which shifts the movie into a higher gear.
-Badguy has massive plan to destory city[or kill alot of people] in some grand fashion.
-Bruce recovers from a major life changeing event, and suits up to save the city.
- Batman ends up saving the love interest from death, and then reveals his identity to her in some fashion.
-Batman has final battle with badguy, usaully in some highly improbblay massive location[train,fotress,tower,penguin sewer,telescope]
-The movie ends with the the city excepting or rexcepting batman as its protector in some fashion.
-Bruce and his love interest wonder if they can have a relationship, and then they kiss.
-Batman has one final scene reassuring the audience that hes here to stay.

that is a typical Batman live action movie formula, Begins had some new stuff,but still basically stuck with the formula.

Very true, but don't all comic films follow that formula? Maybe not the giving away your secret idinity.
Which is another point. Why do that keep having Bats give away his secret idinity.
Hey Bruce why do you think they call it a SECRET idinity? Cause no ones is supposed to know who you are. Quit blaping it to every cutie pie that comes along.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I'm sure John Travolta has a great explanation about Battlefiend Earth. Explanations - cool or poor ones - don't make a movie any better.

I actually think that's wrong.

I used to get on the Burton films about the Lack of Batman.......it really weighed on me that Batman seemed to get less screentime or less attention than the villians in Burtons films. But, once I heard his Dicrector Commentary on BATMAN.....I learned it wasn't actually a mistake, but it was on purpose. Burton explained what he was shooting for, and then I started to pay attention to what he was pointing out...and then I understood it, and it didn't really bother me anymore b/c now I understood what he was doing.

I actually think it made BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS better in my view once I knew that Burton saw Batman as a character that remains hidden and in the shadows. Yeah, it still kinda bothers me....but knowing that it was done for a reason, and not because he didn't care or let it past him made it better for me.

So, I think your wrong Payaso. I think in many ways, understanding what the Director was going for or what was behind the concept makes a difference.

Except for Battlefield Earth. That film is just plain horrible.

my only major problem with batman begins [besides the microwave emitter] is the second half of the movie follows the exact same formula of every other Batman movie since Batman89. Burton created the modern formula for a batman movie

lol....okay.....let's see....

-Batman arrives in Gotham, police,criminals and media are shocked and confused, is he a man on a monster

That's from the books.

And, if it's in a forumla....it's from Richard Donner's SUPERMAN THE MOVIE. Burton didn't create it, exactly for the reason that Batman was already established in B89. He didn't arrive anything, he'd already been around by the time WE arrived to Gotham.

-Bruce Wayne makes a public apperances again.

Huh? That one doesn't even make sense.....how does that tie into Burton's films??

- Batman/Bruce Wayne love interest is introduced or reintroduced.

Yeah......but you can kinda say that about any number of superhero films...that just seems entirely too broad to me.

-Batman is seen buy the police, but they put on a lid on it from the media.

I didn't see any cover up from the cops in Batman Begins. Especially with the media coverage Batman seemed to get by the news covering the chase, and at the end when Batman seemed to get the front cover of the paper.

-Batman uncovers a plot to destroy the city.

Now your just reaching. That's in nearly ever Batman tale, that involves destroying the city.

And, I don't remember Batman uncovering any plots to destroy Gotham in the Burton films. The Joker gave away his plot on Nation Television, and Batman took the challenge and solved it. Joker's laughing gas at the end was hardly going to destroy the city.....probably just kill a hundred or so people....but not destroy the entire city.

In Batman Returns, I believe he just went in on the attack to bring the fight to Cobblepot, and was able to stop the......well......he stopped the army of penguins.....who might have destroyed Gotham. I guess. I mean....they're ****ing penguins. But, they did have rockets on them. Then again, they're ****ing penguins.....

-The love interest somehow gets involoved with evil scheme to destroy city.

Uh......the only one I can think of is Catwoman, and even then that's a farrrr reach b/c she wasn't inolved in any plot to destroy Gotham. Vicki wasn't involved either, she was involved with the Joker b/c he had a hard on for her.

And, Rachel wasn't involved in the plot to destory Gotham, either. So, I don't understand what your saying.

-Batman saves love interest in grand fashion and takes her back to his batcave.

Yeah.....although, I'd say he didn't NEED to bring her to the cave in B89, he did need to in BB. I'd even argue that this aspect goes back to Batman's horror roots.....being like a Dracula, or Monster of the city and bringing his love interest to his dark palace hidden from the world.

But.....meh....sure I'll give it to you. You could use the help.

-Batman gives said love interest some info, to help take down badguys.

Different, though. Batman NEEDED Rachel's help in BB. Batman didn't NEED Vicki's help in B89. And, in B89......Vicki didn't exactly bring down anybody. The Joker's forumla was solved by Batman, so....really....he did all the work.

-Bruce meets the main badguy, and something big happens which shifts the movie into a higher gear.

What the ****???? Are you ****ing kidding me??? Goddamn......could get anymore general? That sounds like any good action film to me......****.....

-Badguy has massive plan to destory city[or kill alot of people] in some grand fashion.

Read a Batman comic. Burton didn't invent this. I love Burton.....but c'mon, your just making **** up now...

-Bruce recovers from a major life changeing event, and suits up to save the city.

.........your kidding.........right?.......

- Batman ends up saving the love interest from death, and then reveals his identity to her in some fashion.

That happened in Batman Begins.

It didn't happen in B89 or BR. I'm not even going to explain, because you need to go watch these films. I suggest picking up the Special Edition Batman and Special Edition Batman Returns DVD's. They're very good pick ups.

-Batman has final battle with badguy, usaully in some highly improbblay massive location[train,fotress,tower,penguin sewer,telescope]

Again....pick up a comic book.

And, for the record....I don't think most of them is that "highly improbable". The Bell Tower in B89 was really down to Earth......wasn't that "massive" at all. The Penguin lair in the sewers weren't that "highly improbable" either....it was a ****ing sewer. The locations in BF and B&R were much more improbably and massive.

I cannot see why a train would be seen as a massive location.....unless your talking about Gotham City....which is...a City. So, yeah..kinda massive...considering it's a ****ing City.

-The movie ends with the the city excepting or rexcepting batman as its protector in some fashion.

Yeah....you found one. Although, I'd wonder the city accepted Batman in BB.....b/c all we got was the Batsignal. We don't really get anything from the City the way we did in B89, where the mayor, and the Commishioner, and the DA and the media are all gathered with the Batsignal basically accepting Baman as they're guardian. We don't really get all that in BB. I think it's a reach, man.

-Bruce and his love interest wonder if they can have a relationship, and then they kiss.

in Batman 89, they wonder a bit....but then they do have a realtionship.

In BB, there's no wondering. They can't have one......even though they probably did have one before he left Gotham. But, there's no wondering. Rachel let's it be known that they can never be together with him being the Batman...

-Batman has one final scene reassuring the audience that hes here to stay.

huh?

that is a typical Batman live action movie formula, Begins had some new stuff,but still basically stuck with the formula.

Not really.......more than half that stuff was completely wrong or didn't make any sense....

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Very true, but don't all comic films follow that formula? Maybe not the giving away your secret idinity.
Which is another point. Why do that keep having Bats give away his secret idinity.
Hey Bruce why do you think they call it a SECRET idinity? Cause no ones is supposed to know who you are. Quit blaping it to every cutie pie that comes along.

Yeah, your right.......in the movies, Bruce needs to give away his secret identity MORE.

In the comics, ALOT more people know he's Batman. ****......the list of people that know his idenity is ****ing long as hell. Almost everybody knows, really. Lots of his romantic interests know too.

So, no. The movies have not crossed some line in letting these women discover his identity. The only problem is that EVERY film has done it, making it "look wrong" to some people. But, if people knowing his identity bothers you.......do not pick up the comics. Your mind will implode with the incredibly long list of people who know he's Batman.

 

[Eros]

Very true, but don't all comic films follow that formula? Maybe not the giving away your secret idinity.
Which is another point. Why do that keep having Bats give away his secret idinity.
Hey Bruce why do you think they call it a SECRET idinity? Cause no ones is supposed to know who you are. Quit blaping it to every cutie pie that comes along.

its not just the identity thing, but it was the laughable Microwave emitter. Nolan should never shoot superhero movies where he puprosely moves the camera all over the place during a fight. also for a movie that strived for "Realism" how exactly did Bruce originally take the tumbler from Wayne industries to his batcave, so he could work on it? Why is it Bruce Wayne vanishes for 7 years, and not once is he asked where he was all that time? Who built the Tumbler, you would think Wayne industries would reconize the tumbler.The movie has alot of technical and story problems, but it was still a good movie. But serously it was a generic superhero movie if i ever seen one. People only like so much, becasue it was better then what came before, and alittle bit more faithfull to the source material [post crisis source material anyway].

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I wouldn't say it strived for realism, rather used the illusion of realsim to ground it so that it can be taken seriously.

Those questions, like why is it nobody wonders where he's been doesn't matter......who built the tumbler.....I honestly don't think it matters. It all seems entirely too nitpicky b/c there's nothing else to latch on to.

For that matter, many of those things happen in the comics.....yet nobody *****es....lol.

 

[ang_hulk]

ive just skimmed the thread but i want to say my piece on a few things

the tumbler didnt sell well at all,it wasnt a marketing ploy,kids didnt like it nearly as much.i loved that concept

us seeing where bats gets his stuff was a great add in,we know where he gets it in the comics and the anitmated series so whats wrong with knowing here? and again it showed how choopy things were in the beginning.

gotham-yes your right but who knows mabey that will change somehow

bruce dependant on fox-of coure,hed never faced a villian like that,nowadays hed have no issue but he had no idea what he was up againt and again he was just starting out,i also want to point out that as bad as it is,nolans batman isnt a major detective,its sad that detail was left out but im ok withit because you didnt see him suddenly gaining the ability to sniff out nos or anything.


batman having a lisp-hated it but he did ok with the part.

the suit-hated the mask,thats it,he was wearing proto body armor,its going to be bulky.

not seeing batman fighting-i think it was ok for this film and the fight scenes we got were nice.there coulda been more-remember,thats how batman doesnt it and at that point he was creating lore,becoming more then a man skillled at fighting,he had to act like a bat.

nolan cared about this film,it showed.

 

[christpunchers]

Lol yeah one thing that really did piss me off is how nobody, not even alfred, seems to question wtf bruce has been up to all these years.. i mean jesus christ, if this guy is the richest guy in gotham, wouldnt the media go crazy over his suuden reappearance?

alfred seems way too calm and much too "ready" for bruce's idea of being a crime fighter. here he is, a guy who disppeared in the middle of college, comes back, and the first thing he wants to be some superhero and alfred just goes along with it without any disagreement? thats just crazy talk.

so the wayne tech armor suit was painted over, but yeah, what about the tumbler? im sure somebody would have realized where it had came from since its all over the news..... bruce didnt even change the look of it after hes done he got it from the labs.

BB while its a good movie, is still far from being perfect. its fun but not as fun as the burtons or as BF, only because we're led to think that its a logical and hyper-realisitic action movie, but its written so blandly that the whole thing feels like a book rather than a piece of art on screen, i mean if we are to enjoy it for how realistic and plausible it is, then dont let those factors ive mentioned above to make it into the final product. the movie just feels WAY too convienent, Ras finding wayne in a cell, within 2 minutes of their meeting hes basically already determined to fight crime and become batman, alfred right away accepts all this and becomes his partner, all the equipment were brought to bruce without much of a fight... i could go on and on but you get the point.

im hoping tdk will end up being better, otherwise these movies, for me personally, will lack any replay value, id only watch it a couple of times only because "i have to" not because i enjoy the ride throughout.

 

[El Payaso]

I actually think that's wrong.

I used to get on the Burton films about the Lack of Batman.......it really weighed on me that Batman seemed to get less screentime or less attention than the villians in Burtons films. But, once I heard his Dicrector Commentary on BATMAN.....I learned it wasn't actually a mistake, but it was on purpose. Burton explained what he was shooting for, and then I started to pay attention to what he was pointing out...and then I understood it, and it didn't really bother me anymore b/c now I understood what he was doing.

I actually think it made BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS better in my view once I knew that Burton saw Batman as a character that remains hidden and in the shadows. Yeah, it still kinda bothers me....but knowing that it was done for a reason, and not because he didn't care or let it past him made it better for me.

So, I think your wrong Payaso. I think in many ways, understanding what the Director was going for or what was behind the concept makes a difference.

Except for Battlefield Earth. That film is just plain horrible.

I just say explanations don't make a movie any better. It might expand your own view as a spectator though, yes.

In BB's fights case, I didn't see a thing before and I don't see a thing after Nolan's explanation. In the docks scene it was perfectly done. As a member of the audience I got perfectly what he was trying to do and worked just fine, the misterious creature moving fast as a shadow etc. After that, the effect was totally different. It was consfuing and even exhausting more than exciting and, as Goyer script, repetitive. The first time it's surprising, then it doesn't offer any more values to the narration. Applied to the final fight, I got a bad ending for the movie.

 

[MacLeod]

All this banter back and forth and in my opinion everyone is overlooking or trying to explain the sad truths of the movie.
1. Extremely bad fight scenes. I don't care if they were on purpose or not, he's a master martial artist, let me see something. An entire martial art was discovered for this movie but we can't see that and it pisses me off.
2. Bad batmobile. I don't care if you need a tank to fight crime, make it a little different from what others built for Wayne industries.
3. Bad mask. Too many lines and bumps, his mouth was squishing out of it, and it just went over the suit. It looked like a bad costume rental.
4. Bad suit. I know he may need body armor but why does it have to look robotic, it doesn't look like a natural body at all. Returns didn't either but I would prefer that than this. It's all black, or grey depending how you see it, either way you can't see the symbol. Shadows are good but it's still a Batman flick, I want to see something that resembles a bat symbol. Also, isn't he supposed to be good enough to dodge bullets? Does he need another rubber type suit? No need to get realistic with this answer, it's a movie, I know no one can dodge bullets but you get my point.
5. The cape had clips. Enough said.
6. Wayne mansion blew up. Another enough said.
7. No one explained where or what he did for seven years. Was he training and if so with whom? Was it all with Ducard/Ra's? He's supposed to have many different martial art styles as a background, this movie didn't show that at all.
8. Bruce Wayne was supposed to leave Gotham to learn how to fight crime, here he left Gotham by default and was thrown in jail. WTF?
9. The cape allows him to fly. I know, I know, he glides. Bull..., it would make sense if he fell gracefully because of the cape but to friggen glide? Use it like a parachute or nothing at all.
10. Every cool, amazing, Batman like shot in the movie was either filmed too close to the action or too far away, or too quickly.

I'll stop here for now, I've vented.

 

[MacLeod]

That's just my opinion though. It's a good movie, just not a Batman movie in my opinion.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

That's just my opinion though. It's a good movie, just not a Batman movie in my opinion.

Except it's the closest to the source material.....which makes what you said seem......odd, at best.

 

[Secret_Riddle]

Hmm interesting points i guess but ive gota disagree, i loved batman begins and you know..ive never been a fan of the 89 batman film, it just seemed bland to me, i liked batman returns better but i dont think they stack up to begins though. I understand where your coming from and the film will never work for everyone, i hope you enjoy the Dark Knight. It has a new screen writer so hopefully it will be the ultimate batman experience for you.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

All this banter back and forth and in my opinion everyone is overlooking or trying to explain the sad truths of the movie.

Sigh.....another one of these......I hope to see that you make more valid points than the last dude I had to do this with....

1. Extremely bad fight scenes. I don't care if they were on purpose or not, he's a master martial artist, let me see something. An entire martial art was discovered for this movie but we can't see that and it pisses me off.

Well, they worked for me, honestly. I liked how quick they were. My question would be for you to explain more. Did all the fight scene bother you? Or are you more with Payaso who seemed to like the Docks fight scene and not the ending fight scene? B/c I do feel that the fight scenes were shooting for making Batman more of a wraith......which I can understand sentiments towards not liking that approach for some scenes.

2. Bad batmobile. I don't care if you need a tank to fight crime, make it a little different from what others built for Wayne industries.

It was black. Enough for me. And, calling it a "bad batmobile"....gotta explain more, you just seem to not like the explanation for it's existence in Batman's arsenal.

3. Bad mask. Too many lines and bumps, his mouth was squishing out of it, and it just went over the suit. It looked like a bad costume rental.

I disagree. I thought the Cowl was great, the mask itself had a scowl molded on it which worked wonders. The mouth opening was smaller, which is a great thing b/c most of the mask openings....even in the comics, are way too big and way too easy to pull off the face, making it easier to either unmask Batman or identify him.

Batman Begins Mask works, and I think fixes the problem I've seen with the mask in so many incarnations....which is you can see too much of the bottom face in many of them.

4. Bad suit. I know he may need body armor but why does it have to look robotic, it doesn't look like a natural body at all. Returns didn't either but I would prefer that than this. It's all black, or grey depending how you see it, either way you can't see the symbol. Shadows are good but it's still a Batman flick, I want to see something that resembles a bat symbol. Also, isn't he supposed to be good enough to dodge bullets? Does he need another rubber type suit? No need to get realistic with this answer, it's a movie, I know no one can dodge bullets but you get my point.

Prefer the BR suit to this? C'mon.....that suit was more robotic than this one. I actually liked the B89 version better before they made the slight changes to it actually. Yeah, they were minor....but I still liked the B89 over the BR.

I could see the bat symbol pretty well on the costume through the film.
And....I'm pretty sure it was a Bat symbol....and not something that doesn't resemble a Bat-symbol. I mean....what did it resemble if it wasn't a Bat?

Having him dodge bullets could be seen as a joke. As in a new Adam West by having Batman duck and turn his head left and right Matrix style to dodge bullets. It's not as much about realsim as it is in taking the character seriously on film so that audiences will as well.

5. The cape had clips. Enough said.

Oh c'mon.......like that was so bad. lol.

6. Wayne mansion blew up. Another enough said.

So....????

7. No one explained where or what he did for seven years. Was he training and if so with whom? Was it all with Ducard/Ra's? He's supposed to have many different martial art styles as a background, this movie didn't show that at all.

There's no point in having these things come up b/c the audience already knows. These are blanks we can fill in for ourselves, especially considering the major movement in Hollywood to shorten films and not reach the 3 hr mark at all....or all of a sudden you'll be a demonized picture for being "too long". So, in hindsight....we don't need to see him make excuses b/c they're blanks we can fill in. Same as how we see Alfred and the private jet show up on a runway. We can, and should be capable, of filling in those blanks. There's no need to hold our hands throughout the film.

And, we do see that he knows different styles of martial arts.

When he enters the monerstry, he fights Ducard. Nuff said.

8. Bruce Wayne was supposed to leave Gotham to learn how to fight crime, here he left Gotham by default and was thrown in jail. WTF?

..............

9. The cape allows him to fly. I know, I know, he glides. Bull..., it would make sense if he fell gracefully because of the cape but to friggen glide? Use it like a parachute or nothing at all.

You get on the suit for being "realistic"....but then you get on this b/c it's too "out there"???

He parachuted in Arkham Asylum. And, the concept of him having a glider started in the comic books. The film managed to make it an actual part of his aresenal, rather than a seprate piece.

And, I'd have to ask. Why not use it as a glider??? Why not? B/c it makes no sense?? B/c if that's so.....then him dodging bullets is 10x as worse.

10. Every cool, amazing, Batman like shot in the movie was either filmed too close to the action or too far away, or too quickly.

Your going to have to explain this further...

I'll stop here for now, I've vented.

As have I, I suppose.

 

[MacLeod]

1. Car-Cool machine, not Batman-esq. Nothing was changed from when people designed it to when Batman used it. Some fins and a front end would shut me up for a while
2. Mask- I prefer 89 or Returns over this one. They might not have been as human like but I think that added to the mystery. Maybe if the ears were longer it would passify me.
3. Suit-Anything is better than B&R. I prefer something that looks human for the suit. B89 was perfect for me, if they could fix the technological problem they had back then and remake that suit I would have no complaints. I dont' expect him to dodge bullets but a Spiderman padded suit would be better than this rubber straight lined one.
4. Cape- Parachuting is great, like in Arkham Asylum. Gliding is good if it's a short burst like in the cave. Flying for a couple of blocks and landing exactly where you want to is too much like flying. He needed a glider in the comics, I don't think a cape should do that.'
5. Fighting- First dock fight was fine, it added to the moment. The rest of the fighting I hated. I want to see something, good techniques or bad ones, I don't care, just let me see it. I don't want to know what the criminals see or feel I want to see what Batman does. If he knocks the criminals out I'll imagine how they feel when they wake up.
6. 7 year gap-If he did train in other styles where was it, who was it with, and how long did he stay there? It takes longer than a year to become proficient in something. Also, he was in jail and living on the streets, it's hard to learn a martial art that way. I don't need my hand held but if you're going to mention martial arts to me, who's a martial artist, I am going to want some realism.
7. The scenes where I thought they could filmed better-The book "The Art of Batman Begins" shows some scenes there the camera captured more of the scene. It's a pet peeve but I want to see more of the action or moment which is why I hated the fight scenes so much.
8. Jail-Why was he in jail? I don't mean in the movie plot, I mean why did they decide to even write it. What happened to Bruce Wayne deciding to fight crime and searching the world for a way to better himself? Batman is supposed to be a driven character, driven by anger and revenge. I know they talked about it at the monestary but a truly driven character is portrayed in the comics and cartoons I would have liked to see it here too. I know why they did it but I don't like it. I think the same effect of trudging through the mountians and traning at the monestary could have been achieved without the jail idea. More life experience learning to be a detective, a fighter, scientist, etc., could have been interwoven instead of being in jail.

ChrisBaleBatman your questions were good, it brought up what I was missing in my first post. These problems were just my opinion, it's still a good movie. I know it's the most accurate representation of Batman but that doesn't mean I like it the most. To me, and this is just my opinion, but it seemed like it was a generic superhero movie, not a Batman movie. I didn't leave the theater with that over powering mystery, dark, feeling I like to get when I watch Batman. If they could incorporate B89 and Begins together I would be in heaven.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

1. Car-Cool machine, not Batman-esq. Nothing was changed from when people designed it to when Batman used it. Some fins and a front end would shut me up for a while

I think it did have flap fins. Not the regular kind, though.

I'd argue if it is Batman-esque......b/c a book that Batman fans, and comic book fans, consider to be the best Batman tale.....had a Batmobile that looked like that. Just b/c it's different, I find it difficult to agree with it not being "Batman-esque" b/c there are so many good takes on the character.

I wonder, would you consider any of the Shumacher cars to be Batman-esque?

2. Mask- I prefer 89 or Returns over this one. They might not have been as human like but I think that added to the mystery. Maybe if the ears were longer it would passify me.

How did they add to the mystery? The neckline was too big and should have been tighter around Keaton's face to make it look better, but I personally felt it took away from the mystery as well as the larger mouth opening, made his face easier to recognize, I feel.

3. Suit-Anything is better than B&R. I prefer something that looks human for the suit. B89 was perfect for me, if they could fix the technological problem they had back then and remake that suit I would have no complaints. I dont' expect him to dodge bullets but a Spiderman padded suit would be better than this rubber straight lined one.

Human for the suit? That's odd for me, man, because the Keaton costume just looked much more machine made. Granted it was certainly the best of it's time, but compared to the BB suit it just looks much more robotic for me. The constrictions also add to that as well.

4. Cape- Parachuting is great, like in Arkham Asylum. Gliding is good if it's a short burst like in the cave. Flying for a couple of blocks and landing exactly where you want to is too much like flying. He needed a glider in the comics, I don't think a cape should do that.'

Short bursts? That'd be bad b/c then he'd fall out of the sky like a bird.

The way I see it, in the comics he swings around Gotham like Spider-Man.

In a film, that is simply unacceptable. So, it's a give and take. We get the grapple gun, in short bursts, with more gliding to compensate. It's best this way, rather than having him shoot the grapple gun every 10 minutes and using it to travel through Gotham's buildings like in the comics. I think if we want to have Batman capable of doing the rooftop thing...you've gotta find a way to explain it in a way that can work. The glider makes enough sense, and is fantastic enough, that it's not a joke....yet still sorta "that can never happen" deal. As oppose to the "What the mother****ing ****?!!" we'd get for having him swing like Spidey.

And....for what it's worth, The cape glider showed up in BR. I loved it there. Was awesome. It's something I'm happy made it into BB, whereas the Schumacher era didn't even go for it......instead having Batman capable of jumping off a skyscraper without getting hurt.

5. Fighting- First dock fight was fine, it added to the moment. The rest of the fighting I hated. I want to see something, good techniques or bad ones, I don't care, just let me see it. I don't want to know what the criminals see or feel I want to see what Batman does. If he knocks the criminals out I'll imagine how they feel when they wake up.

What about the Arkham Asylum fight scene? Essentially, it was the exact same type of situation as the Docks.

The reason I dig the approach is b/c it's something new yet classic. Instead of feeling choregraphed and all Matrix.....it felt gritty and had us see why these people fear him. He was ****ing flying around for christ's sake. We got to see why he's feared and the "theatricality" of how he attacks his prey.

The only fight scene gripes I ever find fair are the ones after Arkham. The docks, the Narrows apartment, Arkham Asylum.....those fight scenes I think were done in such a manner that worked perfectly I think. The Ninja fight, and the fight on the train with Ra's are valid when people say they were cut too quick. Again, they worked for me. But, I certanly understand when Payaso says that it was too quickly edited for him in those instances.

6. 7 year gap-If he did train in other styles where was it, who was it with, and how long did he stay there? It takes longer than a year to become proficient in something. Also, he was in jail and living on the streets, it's hard to learn a martial art that way. I don't need my hand held but if you're going to mention martial arts to me, who's a martial artist, I am going to want some realism.

Well, maybe when audiences and Warner Brothers will allow a 4 hour Batman film.....then I'd agree with you.

But, it's simply impossible to jam all of that information into, essentially, what's supposed to be a 2 hour film. We know he was gone for 7 years. We know he didn't spend all that time in jail. We also know that by the time he wound up in jail, he'd already gone through harsh time and learned to survive (and fight....since that's part of survival). We know he learned different forms of martial arts simply in how Ducard critiqued him while fighting him.

Who trained him? Where'd he learn these things? How'd he learn them? They don't matter b/c they don't contribute to the story and would have slowed the pace of the film considerbly as well as added an hour for trying to lay the character development entirely too thick.

Realism? C'mon. Just b/c it explains everything about his 7 year journey doesn't mean it's more real. And, by the same token, just b/c it doesn't cover everything doesn't make it any less real.

In Batman 89, we never got any explanation for his skills and his expertise in hand to hand combat or how he knew to solve Joker's poison. We, as an audience, don't really NEED to see all that. Sure, it being suggested or hinted at or even explained in portions can work as well. But, I don't think it took away from the realsim or story there.

7. The scenes where I thought they could filmed better-The book "The Art of Batman Begins" shows some scenes there the camera captured more of the scene. It's a pet peeve but I want to see more of the action or moment which is why I hated the fight scenes so much.

I actually want to buy that book....but that $40 price tag had kept me away. I totally want to pick it up though.

8. Jail-Why was he in jail? I don't mean in the movie plot, I mean why did they decide to even write it. What happened to Bruce Wayne deciding to fight crime and searching the world for a way to better himself? Batman is supposed to be a driven character, driven by anger and revenge. I know they talked about it at the monestary but a truly driven character is portrayed in the comics and cartoons I would have liked to see it here too. I know why they did it but I don't like it. I think the same effect of trudging through the mountians and traning at the monestary could have been achieved without the jail idea. More life experience learning to be a detective, a fighter, scientist, etc., could have been interwoven instead of being in jail.

Essentially, his being in jail is equable to how lost he'd become in BATMAN YEAR ONE. He was searching to try and understand the criminal element, and eventually he did. Plus, he got to practice beating the **** out of criminals as well.

Is there something wrong with Bruce being lost? Or being in jail? B/c both have been done in the comics before. And, vengeance is no longer a motivation for him in the comics either, I believe, since they brough Joe Chill back into continuity. Honestly, I prefer the vengeance aspect stay out of his motivation......him seeking to bring justice to others, and not hoping to find his parents killer, make him more of an actual hero and less of a vigilante.

Obviously, though....it's a pet peeve of yours. Not the way you see the character. I can understand that.

ChrisBaleBatman your questions were good, it brought up what I was missing in my first post. These problems were just my opinion, it's still a good movie. I know it's the most accurate representation of Batman but that doesn't mean I like it the most. To me, and this is just my opinion, but it seemed like it was a generic superhero movie, not a Batman movie. I didn't leave the theater with that over powering mystery, dark, feeling I like to get when I watch Batman. If they could incorporate B89 and Begins together I would be in heaven.

Well, there are different takes and interpretations on the character. Most of them work.

 

[MacLeod]

ChrisBalesBatman, I see your points and I thank you for hearing mine out. Nothing is going to be the perfect movie but I guess we have to take the parts that make it come close. I prefer the 89 feel and I guess I always will. I still like Begins which is why I believe if they gave 89 a little backstory it would be perfect for me.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

You mean if Batman Begins was a prequel instead?

 

[MacLeod]

If Begins were a prequal to 89 I would be happy. If 89 had more of a backstory like Begins did I would think it was perfect. I still like the 89 feel of everything, I liked the dark qualities, the suit, the car, the feeling I get after I watch it, etc. If 89 had a flashback scene or a backstory I wouldn't bother complaining about anything, I would be too busy watching that 24 hours a day.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I do think one of the problems with Batman 89 is something that was also one of it's greatest strengths, and that's Nicholson as the Joker. He was so good. Too good. I think it took away from Keaton's Bruce/Batman.....who, I swear to God I found more interesting than Joker......but got less lovin, I think.

I heard on the BATMAN 89 Special Edition DVD that once Nicholson had been cast, they re-wrote the script to expand and give the Joker much more screentime.

Your right, if they'd given more backstory to Batman.....instead of the Joker, I think it'd had been better for it.